We will not win a championship without low post scoring

[return2glory]

No NBA team will ever win an NBA title without any low post scorers unless you have Michael Jordan on your team. We can't score down low and don't get to the line enough. We are a good team, but not an championship team.

Our offense struggles because on those two reasons. We don't have one guy that can score in the low post on a consistant basis and we don't get to the line enough. It's that simple. You can't rely on 3's and jumpers every time. Our defense is the only thing that keeps us close.

This team really needs a low post player. A healthy Leon Powe changed the game for us in 2008. He would score easy baskets or get to the line. In limited minutes he was second on the team in FT attempts. If Ainge wants another title this year, he needs to find that one player.

The good news in that Glen Davis will help. Davis may not be a great low post scorer, but Glen has great hands and is good at cutting to the basket to the basket and getting easy points. Glen Davis IMO, is going to the a key to this season. Think the Detroit game on the road in 2008, we Pierce was driving to the basket and finding Glen for easy baskets.

Can this team still win a title this year? I say yes, not the offensive strategy has to change. More touched in the paint, and a little less shooting from beyond 22 feet.

[Wolves2011]

No NBA team will ever win an NBA title without any low post scorers unless you have Michael Jordan on your team. We can't score down low and don't get to the line enough. We are a good team, but not an championship team.

Our offense struggles because on those two reasons. We don't have one guy that can score in the low post on a consistant basis and we don't get to the line enough. It's that simple. You can't rely on 3's and jumpers every time. Our defense is the only thing that keeps us close.

This team really needs a low post player. A healthy Leon Powe changed the game for us in 2008. He would score easy baskets or get to the line. In limited minutes he was second on the team in FT attempts. If Ainge wants another title this year, he needs to find that one player.

The good news in that Glen Davis will help. Davis may not be a great low post scorer, but Glen has great hands and is good at cutting to the basket to the basket and getting easy points. Glen Davis IMO, is going to the a key to this season. Think the Detroit game on the road in 2008, we Pierce was driving to the basket and finding Glen for easy baskets.

Can this team still win a title this year? I say yes, not the offensive strategy has to change. More touched in the paint, and a little less shooting from beyond 22 feet.

Rather than calling it low post scoring, you could call it "inside scoring". The alternative to having a low post scorer, and we really don't have one, is driving to the hoop. [KG and Wallace don't like playing down low and Perk isn't consistent enough]

Thats what a number of people have been advocating. Use Rondo to create an "inside game" for the Celtics. It's not just Rondo layups. Its Rondo driving the middle and hitting a big man or cutter for an easy shot. That could be our "low post game".

If Doc was smart enough to do it.

[canman1971]

No NBA team will ever win an NBA title without any low post scorers unless you have Michael Jordan on your team. We can't score down low and don't get to the line enough. We are a good team, but not an championship team.

Our offense struggles because on those two reasons. We don't have one guy that can score in the low post on a consistant basis and we don't get to the line enough. It's that simple. You can't rely on 3's and jumpers every time. Our defense is the only thing that keeps us close.

This team really needs a low post player. A healthy Leon Powe changed the game for us in 2008. He would score easy baskets or get to the line. In limited minutes he was second on the team in FT attempts. If Ainge wants another title this year, he needs to find that one player.

The good news in that Glen Davis will help. Davis may not be a great low post scorer, but Glen has great hands and is good at cutting to the basket to the basket and getting easy points. Glen Davis IMO, is going to the a key to this season. Think the Detroit game on the road in 2008, we Pierce was driving to the basket and finding Glen for easy baskets.

Can this team still win a title this year? I say yes, not the offensive strategy has to change. More touched in the paint, and a little less shooting from beyond 22 feet.

Rather than calling it low post scoring, you could call it "inside scoring". The alternative to having a low post scorer, and we really don't have one, is driving to the hoop. [KG and Wallace don't like playing down low and Perk isn't consistent enough]

Thats what a number of people have been advocating. Use Rondo to create an "inside game" for the Celtics. It's not just Rondo layups. Its Rondo driving the middle and hitting a big man or cutter for an easy shot. That could be our "low post game".

If Doc was smart enough to do it.

You obviously do not know anything about basketball. Rondo sucks right now and that is not Doc's fault. Stop your Rondo "agenda" now or you will be suspended. I have had too many complaints about you and even sent you a private PM. You are not going to hijack anymore threads! End of discussion.

[Wolves2011]

No NBA team will ever win an NBA title without any low post scorers unless you have Michael Jordan on your team. We can't score down low and don't get to the line enough. We are a good team, but not an championship team.

Our offense struggles because on those two reasons. We don't have one guy that can score in the low post on a consistant basis and we don't get to the line enough. It's that simple. You can't rely on 3's and jumpers every time. Our defense is the only thing that keeps us close.

This team really needs a low post player. A healthy Leon Powe changed the game for us in 2008. He would score easy baskets or get to the line. In limited minutes he was second on the team in FT attempts. If Ainge wants another title this year, he needs to find that one player.

The good news in that Glen Davis will help. Davis may not be a great low post scorer, but Glen has great hands and is good at cutting to the basket to the basket and getting easy points. Glen Davis IMO, is going to the a key to this season. Think the Detroit game on the road in 2008, we Pierce was driving to the basket and finding Glen for easy baskets.

Can this team still win a title this year? I say yes, not the offensive strategy has to change. More touched in the paint, and a little less shooting from beyond 22 feet.

Rather than calling it low post scoring, you could call it "inside scoring". The alternative to having a low post scorer, and we really don't have one, is driving to the hoop. [KG and Wallace don't like playing down low and Perk isn't consistent enough]

Thats what a number of people have been advocating. Use Rondo to create an "inside game" for the Celtics. It's not just Rondo layups. Its Rondo driving the middle and hitting a big man or cutter for an easy shot. That could be our "low post game".

If Doc was smart enough to do it.

You obviously do not know anything about basketball. Rondo sucks right now and that is not Doc's fault. Stop your Rondo "agenda" now or you will be suspended. I have had too many complaints about you and even sent you a private PM. You are not going to hijack anymore threads! End of discussion.

I tired of dealing with your bias. I'm out of here.

[SonicYouth34]

Umm...we have almost the same team that won it in '07, that also had no low post scoring. More importantly, why does everyone wanna jump ship when were 9-4?

Have some faith people. We're integrating 2 new players (3 if you count KG) and we're adding new and 2 improved players in Rondo and Perk.

[I love heinsohn]

Umm...we have almost the same team that won it in '07, that also had no low post scoring. More importantly, why does everyone wanna jump ship when were 9-4?

Have some faith people. We're integrating 2 new players (3 if you count KG) and we're adding new and 2 improved players in Rondo and Perk.

That team had Powe and a closer to his prime KG. I agree that both teams lacked inside scoring and I am enthused to see that Perk has really developed his offensive game to the point where he can score if matched up 1 on 1 down low. That said, offense in basketball still flows inside then out. You go to the hoop to create opportunities for shooters like Ray or Eddie House. The problem with Orlando is that Rondo is completely scared of Howard as a shot blocker and for that reason the offense looks horrible trying to go inside except when Gortat is in the game.

[Banks2Pierce]

This team won a championship in 07 w/no post scoring. Powe barely even played in those playoffs.

[return2glory]

I'm not just talking about the Orlando game. Most ouf our shots are from 20 feet and out. We need higher percentage shots. More inside scoring and trips to the line. Our offense right now is very soft. Our than Pierce, there is hardly any driving to the basket for closer looks. Not enoght FT's. Your jump shots is can they us only so far.

It's no time to panic. It's just Doc has to figure out a better offensive game plan. Sheed needs to be playing closer to the basket a little more. Rondo needs to stop being afraid to take 12-15 foot open looks. We need more cutting to the baskets and more easy baskets and trips to the line. Basically we need for of a balanced offense attack.

All these things are fixable and I have a strong feeling Glen Davis is going to help. I like Shelden Williams, but he has some bad hands around the basket.

I'm excited about this season. There is a good chance we will be playing better in about a month. I'm starting to see signs of KG getting better with his conditioning. Davis is going to help more that people think, and Daniels should be getting more comfortable as the season goes along. Also Rondo is a slow starter, he will be playing better as well.

[BrooklynBulls]

I think the truth is that by playoff time, Garnett will be generating more stuff inside than he currently is. I think he's very clearly saving himself on offense, scared of hurting himself mixing it up. He's probably right to be.

I also think Rondo is going to step it up a scootch any time now. His passing has gotten even more intuitive after a couple years in this offense. But he's got to exert his scoring will, but he's obviously in a bit of a funk. 25% from the free throw line, even with his subpar stroke, is showing of a mental game he's playing of himself.

Basically, stop worrying so much 13 games into the season.

[celticfan42487]

I 100% agree with the OP's initial post of what this team needs.

I 100% disagree that Glen Davis will help at all. The last thing we need is a wabble from 15feet. I think "the landlord" will help this team more then Davis because we need "easy points".

That's fast break points, low post shots, and driving to the basket either getting layups or to the free throw line.

A second benefit of the "easy points" is not only their traitional high correlation with scoring either by making the shot or getting to the free throw line (Rondo and Shaq excluded). But they also slllllooooowwwww the game down. They make the other team face the opposing defense in a half court game. And there is no team in the NBA that wants to be tested against our fully set up half court defense.

KG is too hurt to give the 6 post plays per game he used to give, we don't have Powe, Pierce is 2 years older and not able to drive every game, and we don't have a post presence off the bench.

All that said, unlike any team we've had before. All the problems can be solved with the current crop of players. There is a chance that KG will return to 08 form, that Sheed will start playing one or two plays from the post, that in the playoffs our players will go out and run on the fast break.

Our passive, jump shooting, soft offense. Could become just aggressive enough to match our physical defense and restore this team to championship type scoring.

IN 08' we suffered from the hot and cold of jump shooting. But we went to Pierce a lot during the playoffs, had Powe, and were just aggressive enough to keep the pressure on the other team on both sides of the court. As Tommy would say 'Attack! Attack! Attack!'

[PPAW4Life]

Prior to last night's debacle, we were shooting 50% as a team......and we need more higher percentage shots??

I don't think so.

I think we just need Sheed to stop taking 3's until he finds his stroke back.

[Al-Haqq]

I'm not sure if Davis will help. He fell in love with the mid range game which is why he spent off season working on his 3pt shot, believe it or not.

[SichtingLives]

We have 2 excellent 3 point shooters on this team (Ray and Eddie), one good (Paul) and one average (Sheed), and Paul is the only one who's shot has fallen consistently since the beginning of the year.

Do you guys really expect a team with this many 3 point threats to stop shooting them and just pound the paint, with few options to even go to? Jumpshooting is a staple of our 3 top scorers arsenal, Sheed is in love with the 3 and Perk isn't quite a go to option in the paint, although he is getting better. They're in a slump so we nitpick on everything, but it will come around.

And I know this will be unpopular, but I have yet to see a game where Rasheed doesn't take 2-4 shots around the basket. It's not like he's entirely abandoned the concept. I'd like to see him taking 75% of his shots from 10 feet in as well, but that's not his game and hasn't been for years. Maybe he's lazy or can't take the pounding for 20-30 minutes a night, I dont know but this is how he's played since long before he got here. People are just getting pissed because he's been awful from 3 lately, and forcing a few. It's understandable, but it's not like he's never mixing it up in the paint (just not as much as we'd like).

Try to stay patient. These guys are going to come around. There is way too much talent for them not to.

[Ed Pinkney]

How about "we will not win a championship because we just don't look good enough at the moment"?

[DEEP3CL]

This is a pretty interesting topic return2glory, I get your sentiment on the matter. But I did some research on a particular site and found the Celtics rank pretty high in the very subject your discussing. I know numbers are some times skewed and don't really tell the whole story.

Anyway as far as "points in the paint", the Celtics ranked 6th with a +8.1 difference in efficiency. They also ranked 1st with a +13.9 difference in efficiency as the top scoring front court. They were also 1st as being the top "out of paint" with a +15.7 difference in efficiency.

Like I said numbers are skewed and only give us a false sense of team efficiency and are accumulated based on averages, as the game is being played we see a different story. These numbers tell us the Celtics are far from struggling, but perception is reality.

I guess the root of the problem probably lies within the defense if you ask me, this game is still about getting stops also.

I want to give you a link for the site but can't find it, but the name of the site is "hoopsstats.com". Very interesting site if you're a numbers guy or just like good info to follow your team.

[threrf23]

I completely agree with the OP. Shooting/slashing/post offense...its a mutual relationship between all three types of offense. Part of being a good jump shooting team means slashing and surrounding good shooters with capable post players. Part of being a good post scoring team involves slashing and surrounding capable post players with good shooters.

For the past few seasons we've had good shooters, and good slashers. We simply haven't been great in terms of post offense.

Baby will help a little bit. Powe helped a little when healthy. But we have had one of the league's most capable post scorers - whether its been KG's doing or Doc's doing or whatever, we have simply not done enough to utilize KG in the post offensively IMO. KG can take all of the 16-20 foot jump shots he wants, and he can shoot a good enough percentage, but we have shooting without that, so that doesn't always help us. He needs to go to work in the post more often, and IMO he probably also needs to slash more often when he has the ball 16-20 feet from the rim to help keep his defender off guard.

Perk occasionally goes to work in the post, and yeah every now and then its necessary to establish him as an option, but generally his offense down low is not good enough to justify the turnovers which result from him handling the ball down low. It would be ideal to see Perk develop his jumpshot if we feel that's necessary for spacing. Maybe we should make a move for Camby. Maybe Rasheed should play more alongside KG, maybe he should start. Offensively, inside scoring ability has been our weakest point in recent years and even if we wanted to improve our shooting or slashing IMO it starts in the post.

[PPAW4Life]

Tommy said it in today's game against the Knicks...the Celtics were getting off to slow starts because they were going to Perk in the post.

In the Knicks game they went to Pierce's hot hand, Paul made some 3's which opened up his slashing and he was able to get to the rim and draw some fouls to get to the free throw line.

Post scoring is not essential to our ball club, it's nice added luxury, but it is not essential.

[Slartibartfast]

I completely agree with the OP. Shooting/slashing/post offense...its a mutual relationship between all three types of offense. Part of being a good jump shooting team means slashing and surrounding good shooters with capable post players. Part of being a good post scoring team involves slashing and surrounding capable post players with good shooters.

For the past few seasons we've had good shooters, and good slashers. We simply haven't been great in terms of post offense.

Baby will help a little bit. Powe helped a little when healthy. But we have had one of the league's most capable post scorers - whether its been KG's doing or Doc's doing or whatever, we have simply not done enough to utilize KG in the post offensively IMO. KG can take all of the 16-20 foot jump shots he wants, and he can shoot a good enough percentage, but we have shooting without that, so that doesn't always help us. He needs to go to work in the post more often, and IMO he probably also needs to slash more often when he has the ball 16-20 feet from the rim to help keep his defender off guard.

Perk occasionally goes to work in the post, and yeah every now and then its necessary to establish him as an option, but generally his offense down low is not good enough to justify the turnovers which result from him handling the ball down low. It would be ideal to see Perk develop his jumpshot if we feel that's necessary for spacing. Maybe we should make a move for Camby. Maybe Rasheed should play more alongside KG, maybe he should start. Offensively, inside scoring ability has been our weakest point in recent years and even if we wanted to improve our shooting or slashing IMO it starts in the post.

Well thought out, but I don't think KG is quite the interior scorer you make him out to be. He's very effective on the block against long skinny guys like himself, such as Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Josh Smith, Rashard Lewis, etc., but he's not very effective against guys with a lower center of gravity like Chuck Hayes, or a greater overall girth like Shaq and Howard. Against such player's, he's far better suited as a pick and pop guy to drag the big man out of the paint and hit spot-up Js and pass over the top.

As for the contention of the OP, I don't think we're in any different of a situation than we were when we won the title in 08. We've never had a "I can get a lay-up anytime I want" type player in the KG era. We score off of relentless pick and rolls, mismatch exploitation, and transition points off of great defensive plays.

[Triple M]

Tommy said it in today's game against the Knicks...the Celtics were getting off to slow starts because they were going to Perk in the post.

In the Knicks game they went to Pierce's hot hand, Paul made some 3's which opened up his slashing and he was able to get to the rim and draw some fouls to get to the free throw line.

Post scoring is not essential to our ball club, it's nice added luxury, but it is not essential.

Perk's post game is slower then molasses I he is more effective when he can make one scoring move instead of backing down his defenders. In games like Phx, Atl, and maybe a lesser extent GS his slowness in backing down his man allows time for the help defender to creep over often resulting in blocked shots/misses. Also he has become a bit of a black hole in the post which is a shame because I felt he was making sound improvements in passing late last season. However, I do like getting Perk involved in the game early I think it focuses him in the other areas of his game I just wish he was more decisive.

[irie]

Whenever the threes aren't working dump it down to Perkins. He'll shoot a higher percentage than we've been shooting from 3 and he's a decent passer and good at recognizing oncoming double teams. I'd rather see the slow post 2s than constant missed 3s..