Can we put this to rest?

magickingdom · Post #1 » by **magickingdom** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:53 pm

Magic fan here. I am not here to talk crap about how we are going to beat you everytime we play or anything else. In fact I understand that this could very well be our only win this year aginst you.
Only time will tell there. But can we now put the argument to rest that you would have won last year if KG was playing? Last night KG was playing, but Jameer was not, and we won. So can we move on past that line of thinking?

Nothingface · Post #2 » by **Nothingface** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:20 pm

RealGM: Where one game early in the season means as much as a round in the playoffs.

dakobestopper · Post #3 » by **dakobestopper** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:24 pm

not a fair comparison, post-injury kg is not the same as pre-injury kg... at least not at the moment...

CHIMOCHI · Post #4 » by **CHIMOCHI** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:52 pm

magic fans exposed as insecure..o wait..nothing new here

Post #5 » by **Hilltop** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:56 pm

Doesn't really matter to me if this is 'put to rest' or not. I think it has been established that the Magic are a good enough team to beat the Boston Celtics, period. Even their most fanatic supporters will admit that.

One thing is for sure though, we cannot draw any full blown conclusions from this. Are they clearly the better team? Nah, too early into the season to tell. Are they going to beat them in the Playoffs? No one knows the answer to that either. The only thing I know is that they are definitely capable of doing so. I'm fine with that right there.

It's rather pointless to ask a rival team's fans to concede that another team is superior (especially if the two teams are so close). We shouldn't expect that of Celtics fans, because there is no way they could ever expect us or Cleveland fans to concede anything either.

Bad-Thoma · Post #6 » by **Bad-Thoma** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:16 pm

Hilltop wrote:Doesn't really matter to me if this is 'put to rest' or not. I think it has been established that the Magic are a good enough team to beat the Boston Celtics, period. Even their most fanatic supporters will admit that.

One thing is for sure though, we cannot draw any full blown conclusions from this. Are they clearly the better team? Nah, too early into the season to tell. Are they going to beat them in the Playoffs? No one knows the answer to that either. The only thing I know is that they are definitely capable of doing so. I'm fine with that right there.

It's rather pointless to ask a rival team's fans to concede that another team is superior (especially if the two teams are so close). We shouldn't expect that of Celtics fans, because there is no way they could ever expect us or Cleveland fans to concede anything either.

I CONCEDE NOTHING! except that this is a pretty reasonable post. Two good teams, both are capable of beating each other in the playoffs and if they face each other all will be answered.

magickingdom · Post #7 » by **magickingdom** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:17 pm

Hey Dekobestopper. I see you are a lot like me. Been around a long time, but does not post much.
I really just like to read and learn. I like hearing what other fans have to say and think.
And to Hilltop, I did not ask anyone to concede that we were better, in fact just the opposite. I said that we just may not even win another game aginst Boston. But this Pre vs Post KG does not make sense to me. KG played, Jameer did not. In any case, Cleveland showed us last year it ain't over till the end, the regular season is just the warm ups.

GregB · Post #8 » by **GregB** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:43 pm

Last nights game proved nothing,

KG still isn't KG, Whether he will be by the end of the year remains to be seen. But, I am obviously hoping that he will continue to get stronger the farther he is removed from his surgery.

Both the magic and the Cs are averaging 35% from 3 on the season. The magic shot 45% in the game while we shot 10% from 3. Yet, The Cs could have still won this game despite that. Even if we shot 20% from 3, We likely win this game.

chakdaddy · Post #9 » by **chakdaddy** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:09 pm

magickingdom wrote:Magic fan here. I am not here to talk crap about how we are going to beat you everytime we play or anything else. In fact I understand that this could very well be our only win this year aginst you.
Only time will tell there. But can we now put the argument to rest that you would have won last year if KG was playing? Last night KG was playing, but Jameer was not, and we won. So can we move on past that line of thinking?

Are you serious??? We almost won last year and it took a huge collapse for us to lose, and that was without KG! We can't predict anything 100%, but we were missing our best player, the linchpin of the defending champs, and still almost one. Logic says that we probably would win if he played. That's just common sense. I mean...please! Injuries happen, and you guys got better breaks than we did last year, and won the series fair and square; but don't read more into it...

Last night was one game, and both teams are quite different anyway - that doesn't trump common sense.

TheOGJabroni · Post #10 » by **TheOGJabroni** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:15 pm

We're not the team you will see later on in the season, and more importantly, in the playoffs. We're going to get much better. KG is not 100%, anyone with eyes could tell you that after watching KG pre-injury, so your argument is still flawed.

Don't get me wrong, your team is very good, but this ONE game in the early regular season means nothing. Especially when the Celtics are clearly struggling as it is.

gocelts · Post #11 » by **gocelts** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:18 pm

The Magic fan is right. They beat us fair and square. We had rest, playing against the team that bounced us out of the playoffs (at home), AND we were at home. If you cant get up for that type of game, why bother with the regular season? That type of apathetic attitude is not what wins championships. We're a good team and its a long season, but the Magic are better than us right now.

Dave_From_NB · Post #12 » by **Dave_From_NB** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:39 pm

I can't believe you guys are debating this. At the end of the day, neither team won the championship, which is the only thing that matters.

magicfan1989 · Post #13 » by **magicfan1989** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:58 pm

keep in mind that we didn't have our all-star PG in Jameer Nelson last year....

So that KG excuse doesn't fly as easily as most of y'all think.

SonicYouth34 · Post #14 » by **SonicYouth34** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:10 pm

Nothingface wrote:RealGM: Where one game early in the season means as much as a round in the playoffs.

Sounds about right.

BRUNiNHO91 · Post #15 » by **BRUNiNHO91** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:31 pm

gocelts wrote:The Magic fan is right. They beat us fair and square. We had rest, playing against the team that bounced us out of the playoffs (at home), AND we were at home. If you cant get up for that type of game, why bother with the regular season? That type of apathetic attitude is not what wins championships. We're a good team and its a long season, but the Magic are better than us right now.

With 1 minute left in the game it was a 78-78 game..it could have gone EITHER way. 'Apathetic attitude'..give me a break man..we didn't lose by 30..it was a 5 pt game...if Wallace makes 2 0f his 8 3's we win this game...IMO they aren't better..they are just as good as us. Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Hawks can all beat one another..the East is up for grabs this year..I will go as far as saying homecourt advantage will not even matter all that much.. :roll:

Post #16 » by **Hilltop** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:03 pm

chakdaddy wrote:
magickingdom wrote:Magic fan here. I am not here to talk crap about how we are going to beat you everytime we play or anything else. In fact I understand that this could very well be our only win this year aginst you.
Only time will tell there. But can we now put the argument to rest that you would have won last year if KG was playing? Last night KG was playing, but Jameer was not, and we won. So can we move on past that line of thinking?

Are you serious??? We almost won last year and it took a huge collapse for us to lose, and that was without KG! We can't predict anything 100%, but we were missing our best player, the linchpin of the defending champs, and still almost one. Logic says that we probably would win if he played. That's just common sense. I mean...please! Injuries happen, and you guys got better breaks than we did last year, and won the series fair and square; but don't read more into it...

Last night was one game, and both teams are quite different anyway - that doesn't trump common sense.

Sorry, but that you guys collapsed isn't our problem.

I think there's a big chance that you would have won that series with Garnett around, but it would be ignorant to claim that with definitive certainty. Jameer Nelson is NOT on KG's level, but he was a valuable part of our team nonetheless That said, while odds would be in the favor of the Celtics winning that series, if you put back both Nelson and Garnett and restarted it from scratch, it's anybody's ballgame all over again. This isn't as simple as saying Celtics won 3 games without KG, so that means with him they will win 4. :roll:

That's an overly simplistic and narrow minded way to look at it given the fact that there are so many variables that will change. So no, it's not a matter of common sense. Facts and speculation are not the same thing.

Post #17 » by **Hilltop** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:06 pm

GregB wrote:Last nights game proved nothing,

KG still isn't KG, Whether he will be by the end of the year remains to be seen. But, I am obviously hoping that he will continue to get stronger the farther he is removed from his surgery.

Both the magic and the Cs are averaging 35% from 3 on the season. The magic shot 45% in the game while we shot 10% from 3. Yet, The Cs could have still won this game despite that. Even if we shot 20% from 3, We likely win this game.

Yeah and if Vince didn't miss so many shots we would've still won too. Could'a should'a would'a... didn't. We can go all day talking about the little details that could've gone this or that way. I agree that you guys were a few good shots away from a win, but let's not pretend that luck is all that decided this game. The winning team wins for a reason.

But that's besides the point, coz I'm not here to get into a war with Celtics fans. To me, this win is just another win. It does NOT tell me that the Magic are a better team hands down. All it tells me is that the Magic are indeed capable of beating the Celtics with Kevin Garnett around. Take it for what it's worth. It's not an insult at all.

At the end of the day, it's not like it changes the fact that the C's are STILL a top dog in the EC along with the Magic, Hawks, and errr... LeKing's Crabaliers. :wink:

GregB · Post #18 » by **GregB** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:28 pm

magicfan1989 wrote:keep in mind that we didn't have our all-star PG in Jameer Nelson last year....

So that KG excuse doesn't fly as easily as most of y'all think.

The same all star PG that magic fans have been bitching about because he can't guard a chair? Nelson is a solid PG but if he was that good you wouldn't have to point out that he was an all star every time you mention his name. Comparing Jameer Nelsons impact to KGs impact is a joke.

celticfan42487 · Post #19 » by **celticfan42487** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:37 pm

A non KG team is the one you saw last night. One that doesn't have a post offense and shows a lack of agression.

Right now our team isn't good enough to beat the Magic.

Last year a healthy Celtics team was more then good enough to beat a healthy Magic given the matchups.

chakdaddy · Post #20 » by **chakdaddy** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:02 pm

Hilltop wrote:Sorry, but that you guys collapsed isn't our problem.

Of course not - it benefited you guys, but it didn't reflect well on your team that it took a collapse to beat a team missing KG.

Hilltop wrote: I think there's a big chance that you would have won that series with Garnett around, but it would be ignorant to claim that with definitive certainty. Jameer Nelson is NOT on KG's level, but he was a valuable part of our team nonetheless That said, while odds would be in the favor of the Celtics winning that series, if you put back both Nelson and Garnett and restarted it from scratch, it's anybody's ballgame all over again. This isn't as simple as saying Celtics won 3 games without KG, so that means with him they will win 4. That's an overly simplistic and narrow minded way to look at it given the fact that there are so many variables that will change. So no, it's not a matter of common sense. Facts and speculation are not the same thing.

I mean, obviously what you say is literally true; but you were missing your 4th best player; we were missing our best player, an MVP candidate who was the centerpiece of the team. And it still wound up being close. So the only SPECULATION that makes much sense is that Boston would have won with KG, especially if Orlando played as poorly as they did in that series. If you guys played like you did vs Cleveland, and not like you did vs Boston, LA, and to an extent, Philly...then it's anybody's game yeah, but you've still got to favor the champs in a hard fought series.

Last year you guys played great for 1 series to beat Cleveland, but barely beat an injury decimated Celtics team that you should have swept, then were overmatched in the finals.

Obvoiusly nothing is certain, and it ultimately means nothing; but it seems completely crazy to say that Boston wouldn't have been a heavy favorite with KG. And that's why the original post in this thread seemed awfully silly.

Actually, looking at your post more closely, I don't think we're really disagreeing in the first place...

You guys are looking good this year though, and we're still looking shaky; I'll admit I'm starting to take the Magic more seriously as a threat this year.