Game 13: Chicago Bulls (6-5) @ Denver Nuggets (8-4)

[J Smitty]

So if Nene averaged 2 more rebounds a game, but scored 5 less points....he would be better player, have a "passion" for rebounding, and help us win more games?

That's the stupidest **** I've ever heard.

[el loco]

So if Nene averaged 2 more rebounds a game, but scored 5 less points....he would be better player, have a "passion" for rebounding, and help us win more games?

That's the stupidest **** I've ever heard.

He also only averages 7 or 8 shots per game, so his points are always going to be in the 13-16 ppg area. It isn't like he shoots a terrible percentage on them either, he was 2nd in the league in field goal percentage last year, and he is top 5 in that category so far this year. Of course some of this is on him for not going after offensive rebounds, and there really is no reason why he shouldn't be averaging 3 offensive boards/put backs a game.

[SnakefromHell]

Who averaged 5 pts less and 2 rebounds more than Nene?

Here's their stats:

- Nene (13 games, 33.7 mpg): 14.2 ppg (on 8.8 shots per game), 9.2 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.0 bpg, 1.2 spg, 59.6 FG%, 69.6 FT%
- Noah (12 games, 33.4 mpg): 11.9 ppg (on 8.8 shots per game), 12.3 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.8 bpg, 0.7 spg, 56.2 FG%, 65.8 FT%
- M-Gasol (13 games, 35.6 mpg): 15.2 ppg (on 8.7 shots per game), 11.1 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.7 bpg, 1.2 spg, 61.1 FG%, 74.7 FT%


These three guys have eerily similar stats. Look at the no of shots per game.


Again I wouldn't say trade Nene, but if either Bulls or Grizz want Nene and we had no choice but to trade him, I'd say do it, why:

- Noah is worse offensively, but he more than makes up for it in rebounding, and being active not only on the glass but also in the paint around the rim. He is Chris Andersen who can guard in the post and is actually a beast in rebounding. His long hands always get to the ball and always give his team hope for second chance opportunities. Stick Noah among Bynum and Gasol and he can still corral boards (he had 15 rebounds in LA game last week). How Nene hurts us is his 6 pts and 3 rebounds games... while a 24 pts and 16 rebds game is great for blow out games, it's those sub-par games against contenders that really hurt us. The drop off at the most inopportune time... with Noah, you know you're getting 12 and 12 every night. You know what you're getting from him. Not too high, not too low.

- Marc Gasol! Need we say more? 8.7 shots per game and better ppg, better FG%, better FT%, better bpg, same apg... and this guy just rebounds the ball! Do this trade, and I swear we won't ever again wish for another big man. This guy is as fundamentally sound as any big we have had in this L since Tim Duncan, and he's gonna get better. That's the scary part. To be honest, I don't think Nene has what it takes to beat Gasol out of the All Star spot. Land Gasol, and we pretty much land a perennial all-star PF to play with Melo and Lawson for many, many years to come.

[el loco]

So the Nuggets trade Nene for Gasol and gain 1 point per game, 2 boards per game, and this is supposed to put the Nuggets over the top? I wonder how much the team would lose in points against in this deal.

[J Smitty]

There is no use arguing with that kid. He seems to think this is a fantasy basketball forum.

[The Rebel]

Anybody that thinks that Noah is better for the Nuggets then nene is, needs to spend more time actually watching a few games. Noah is a guy much like Camby, except he is a better man to man defender and does not have anything resembling an actual outside shot. The Nuggets need Nene to be the offensive force on the inside, and unless a guy is bringing that then there is no reason to even discuss trading him.

As for Gasol, sure he would be a slight improvement in rebounding and offense over Nene right now, but not near enough to put us over the top. And that is not even considering that Gasol allows almost a 20 per and a 53% opponent effective fg percentage.

[eathy]

You can make a case for Gasol, but don't bother with Noah.

Nene is better all-around than both of them, and although those 2 are younger; Nene has 6 years more NBA experiences which is vital come playoff time.

Also he stated that he'll retire by the 2016 Olympics.

[Powder Blue]

What's with the cult obsession with M Gasol. Memphis isn't going to trade him. Stop bringing it up all the time. You're just typing up useless rhetoric.

[SnakefromHell]

Guys the problem with Nene is not his 13 and 8. Because 13 and 8 are good numbers for most big men in this L.

But 13 and 8 explain the problem. Because Nene is at least a 18 and 10 guy, but the fact that he owns a 13 and 8 stat, means he is inconsistent.


What kills us is when we play against championship contending teams (obviously important games), regular seasons or playoffs, Nene often has games of 6 and 3, 8 and 4, etc... that's what kill us. He has good games at home against sub .500 teams but when we play on the road or against top teams he disappears.

When he disappears we're screwed.


If we could spread it out and have Nene produce 13 and 8 every night consistently, we would have no problems... but the problem is really when he puts 26 and 14 and then in the next game which happens to be against a top team/ on the road/ important game he puts 6 and 4. That's what kills...


At least with Gasol and Noah, the discrepancy of the highs and lows is not big... they won't put 30 pts and 10 rebounds like Nene can, but they stay consistent at 15 and 10 every night. You know with these guys, you're not gonna get 6 and 4 and wondering and worrying if he's going to show up, these guys WILL give you 15 and 10 every night.

[SnakefromHell]

Also I would like to point out to The Rebel, yes I agree Noah is somewhat similar to Camby and Birdman. But like you pointed out Noah is a better one on one defender.


But he has a mid range jumper... from about the 5 Bulls games I watched so far, he can knock down those shots... it's ugly but they go in.

And what separates Noah from Camby and Birdman is his ability to give his team second chance opportunities. He's just a long and relentless jumping bunny that most often he gets his hands on the ball even if he is boxed out and has to scrap it from behind...

Put him on Nuggets and this guy's ability to give us second chance opportunities would make us a whole lot more aggressive on offense. Think about slightly-offensively-challenged guys like Afflalo and Graham, or guys who have off nights, they often hesitate taking shots especially when they know the chance of getting the ball back if they clank the shot is very slim... that's going to discourage them from shooting/ trying to score. But if they know they have a high chance of recovering the ball if it misses, then they'd go for it at full force... it makes them so much more aggressive.

[CanNugget]

Tt felt so much better to read this board once AI was traded. Now snake may need to be traded.

[blue steel]

i understand most of you guys not agreeing with snake's proposals of trading nene, but i think you are all ignoring a glaring weakness by just brushing it aside.

nene's inconsistencies can (and probably will) be the reason we have trouble making it to the finals and winning a championship. we aren't going to be able to do it without good/great bigman production, and we cannot count on any of our guys to be consistent. nene is the most talented, but he shows up for 1/3 of the games. its his defense that snake's ignoring. his defense makes him better than gasol/noah in my mind. he knows the game and knows how to defend, even though he doesn't really do it with flash like noah. but him not being at least a 15/10 guy is really frustrating. we just aren't going to win a championship depending on melo/jr/billups because we can never count on any of our bigmen for a big game.

[SnakefromHell]

^Exactly my point.

There's no use blindly defending a Nugget player just because he's a Nugget. I understand loyalty, but think again, are you really a fan of the players or the team? The NBA is business anyone can be moved anytime, players come and go, but team's championship window comes maybe once? twice? in a lifetime... at least if you're not Lakers or Spurs.


But blue steel, I have to disagree with Nene being that much a better defender than Noah and Gasol. I am aware Nene is a very good post defender but how many times in the playoffs Bynum just backed him down for easy two? Noah holds his own in the post defensively against big guys... and his rebounding more than makes up for it. Gasol is emerging as one of the better post defenders in the L.

Think when Nene grabs 6 rebounds, KMart grabs 4 rebounds, how the hell are we gonna get the other 30 rebounds? Melo gonna chip in 8, the rest of the little guards are going to have work harder rebounding the ball. They already have their guard roles and now because the 4 and 5 spots don't show up to work, they have to do their jobs. NBA is not 16 games like NFL unfortunately, it's 82 games. You can't expect Billups to pat Nene, "don't worry I got your back this season, I'll get 9 rebounds per game for 82 games", nor can Karl keep grinding the guards to get more boards because while they can help, it's not their main job. They can help, but you can't rely your success on them. If Karl expects rebounding to be the guards' jobs too, by late February and March, the guards and Billups (esp him) are gonna be worn out. Just the expectations from coaching staff are a burden on their minds... it's unnecessary pressure put on the 3, 2, 1 guys created from missing production by the 4 and 5 guys. Something has to change... either tell Nene to step up and get more rebounds, or if he can't get it done, we'll have to bring someone who can.

---

Another one thing how Nene can hurt us often is his temper. He dishes out elbows and physical plays to opponents but can't take them. I think at least once every game he thinks he is fouled and doesn't get call and he keeps bitching to the refs... even if he doesn't get techs, he already takes himself out of the game... it's obvious his body language for the rest of the game he's pissed about one little thing and makes it affect him for the rest of the game. At times, he's able to shake it off, but from all the Nugget games I've seen he just lets one little thing affect and control him for the rest of the game.

I think besides the inconsistency, the short fuse, he is a terrific player and great teammate. I love Nene, but I love my team more. When I see my team's starting center spot being manned by a guy with inconsistent performance and borderline all-star 13 and 8 points, I'd say "there has to be room for improvement". If you really want your team to contend for championship that is... but if you're content to stay at WCF or Round 2 maybe, then we can be happy with the inconsistency at that spot. And wear the other guys out.

[The Rebel]

i understand most of you guys not agreeing with snake's proposals of trading nene, but i think you are all ignoring a glaring weakness by just brushing it aside.

nene's inconsistencies can (and probably will) be the reason we have trouble making it to the finals and winning a championship. we aren't going to be able to do it without good/great bigman production, and we cannot count on any of our guys to be consistent. nene is the most talented, but he shows up for 1/3 of the games. its his defense that snake's ignoring. his defense makes him better than gasol/noah in my mind. he knows the game and knows how to defend, even though he doesn't really do it with flash like noah. but him not being at least a 15/10 guy is really frustrating. we just aren't going to win a championship depending on melo/jr/billups because we can never count on any of our bigmen for a big game.

I understand the frustration, but realistically what is the better option having a guy who forces the defense to constantly account for him and pay attention to what he is doing not to mention playing damn good defense even if he only half asses it half the time, or the guy who works his ass off but defenses do not have to worry about him on offense?

Without Nene or another inside presence we become a team that is perimeter oriented, allowing teams to force us into taking jumpshots. Just like in the Bulls game the other night, where the Nuggets could not get going, until they went to Nene 3 times in a row, forcing Noah and the defense to worry about more then the slashers and outside shots. nene is the only one on the Nuggets that can give us that presence, and there are really only a few in the league, which makes them near impossible to get.

[J Smitty]

Noah is basically Camby with slightly better man defense. And I think we all know who the Nuggets would rather have on this team.

[blue steel]

Yeah, I agree, without Nene or another inside presence we would be in trouble, the problem is our inside presence doesn't show up enough.

i'm sure if snake was watching noah play for us every night he would not be happy, and i'm not so sure about marc gasol's defense although i have seen only a few games of his. but nene just isnt consistent. theres nothing thats really going to change that unless he flips a switch in his head because the coaches and everyone has known that hes too passive for a long time. he needs to be aggresive every night, and not let his emotions get to his head. getting him there should one of karl's main focuses. if he doesn't, i really don't see us winning a championship, you just need to be more well rounded to win it all.

[KAVK]

Nene needs to man up and take it like a beastlike figure he shows at his outside! All these people expressing their thoughts on Nene just piling up. Denver will lose Petro, Allen, Graham, Birdman or Martin to get solid big BUT Nene ain't going nowhere! If we have to lose Bird and Martin on top of other bench warmers to get solid big Den would not hesitate a lot but to lose Nene IT JUST AIN'T happening.

Last year WCF our rebounding was good when we were into it like our life depended on it! That clearly tells the story, however we are still lacks legit 7 footer to beef up the front /most important part of the championship team/. Memphis will give up one of their BIG's before deadline. To me it looks more like we not knowing the team strategy to rebound that small details like box out & knowing your man when going after the ball. Melo is bringing outstanding effort to the court & that type of effort is contagious.

[pickaxe]

We don't need the 4th big for the playoffs.....we need the 4th big to make sure we still have 3 legit frontcourt players come playoff time. It's not that these 3 can't handle it, it's just that it's taking it for granted that because they had a full injury free year suddenly we can grind them up and down the floor like they are 22 again. They have talent and body type but the other teams' bigs have the advantage because they enter a game rested and ready to bang.

[el loco]

Yeah, I agree, without Nene or another inside presence we would be in trouble, the problem is our inside presence doesn't show up enough.

i'm sure if snake was watching noah play for us every night he would not be happy, and i'm not so sure about marc gasol's defense although i have seen only a few games of his. but nene just isnt consistent. theres nothing thats really going to change that unless he flips a switch in his head because the coaches and everyone has known that hes too passive for a long time. he needs to be aggresive every night, and not let his emotions get to his head. getting him there should one of karl's main focuses. if he doesn't, i really don't see us winning a championship, you just need to be more well rounded to win it all.

Nene struggles against height, he is really only around 6'9", which is why I think his game is more suited for the PF spot. This is just my opinion and I have been saying it for quite some time. The Nuggets can't really make a deal unless they can find a taker for Kmart, which isn't going to happen this year. Trading Nene for a player that basically puts up the same numbers that he does isn't a solution or at least I don't think it is.

There just aren't a lot of available options out there unless the Nuggets were willing to trade one of the main guys on the team (Nene, Melo, Billups, or Smith) because the other contracts on the team are such small contracts. Noah is still on his rookie deal, and I believe Gasol is as well so Nene is priced well above them, so the chances of either of those teams dealing one of those guys for Nene is pretty slim because they would have to add other players to make the numbers work.