Forget the M J-Kobe caomparisons, Kobe vs. Magic

[Mamba Venom]

Forget all the Kobe MJ comparisons... I think MJ will have the edge when t comes to steals (about 1 more a game), scoring (about 2 more points a game), assists (1 more a game) & rebounds (1 more a game). The only thing Kobe can do to become the greatest is to keep the stats close and win more championships.

People always try to compare Kobe to Jordan but think about Kobe vs. Magic

Both are all-time greats that played guard
Both are lifetime Lakers
Both came into the league and were blessed by playing with the best big man of their generation
Both won championships relatively young
Both were either the best or the second best player on all their championship teams
Both players Achillie's heel was off the court affairs that both paid dearly for (obviously Magic paid the ultimate price) also both were able keep their marriages together after the fact

Which player is better?
What (if anything) does Kobe have to do to be the best Laker of all-time? Would 6 championships do it?

Barber-shop talk it

[vinnycorleone]

magic did more for the game so magic.

but if we are talking strictly basketball Kobe can do what he is doing now...against any era/generation. kobe will go down as a top 10 player in the history of the league and so will magic

[doozyj]

6 would do it. At the end of Kobes career he will easily surpass Magic in personal allocades except in assists of course.

[CowsMoo]

Even though I'm young, I still hold Magic above Kobe, and that might stick with me forever. Mostly because for what he did for the game, less on skill.

It also depends on your definition of better of course.

I don't find anything wrong with the Kobe comparisons, I see it as a product of Kobe's drive as a student of the game. There are so many little things that add up to where he is now, you can't strictly say it's from Michael Jordan.

[semi-sentient]

Magic was better/more impactful on offense than Kobe (and Jordan, IMO), but Kobe is better on defense by just as big a margin. I think that overall Magic is better because not only was he insanely efficient (and more exciting to watch), but also due to what he did to elevate the play of guys like Worthy, Scott, Cooper, and an older Kareem. He ran the greatest, most efficient offense of all time and won 5 championships in 8 trips. From a winning standpoint, Kobe is closing in. One more victory this year and he will have won 5 in 7 trips.

That won't be enough though. When you talk about the greatness of Magic (and Bird for that matter), you have to include what he did for the NBA in the 80's to pave the way for guys like Jordan (and now Kobe and LeBron). You have to consider how loved he was for most of his career and how his personality grew on everyone. You also have to consider how many MVP's Magic brought home in an era where he had to compete against Dr J, Bird, and Jordan, some of the greatest to ever step on the court. That says nothing of the unforgettable rivalries with Bird and Jordan that resonated with fans of all teams.

Kobe is going to hold a lot of Lakers records (regular season and playoffs) when it's all said and done. He may just pull in another MVP this year if the Lakers finish with a significantly better record than the Cavs (I don't think CP3 or Wade have a shot), and that will help him get into the discussions. If he can do that as well as win another 2 championships (and Finals MVPs), he might have a great case for being right there with Magic. It's hard for me to imagine him being considered greater than Magic though, but it's not out of the question. The way he's played this season makes me think he's going to have one of the best 10-15 year stretches of all-time, and that'll be important when judging him.

It's too early for threads like this though. Let Kobe lead us to another championship and then revisit this topic. Right now he doesn't belong in the discussion with guys like Magic.

[Kilroy]

Magic from a pure basketball standpoint AND from an impact to the game AND from a historical standpoint...

It may be close statistically or whatever but not in my mind...

If MJ is the greatest in the game, then I'd say Kobe is second greatest... I think their games are close and their impact on the game is close... Obviously Kobe wants to be like Mike, so MJ has a bigger impact but neiter of them really changed the sport. MJ took it to the next level of popularity and Kobe is doing the same with Asia etc...

But E-'m'-J was probably the most versitile basketball player ever... He was just made for this sport... He could compete at just about every position...

Statistically, his D wasn't great, but that wasn't his purpose on the floor, and when he wanted to, he could lock folks down.

He made everyone on the floor with him look like all-stars... Even Kupchack and Rambis... He significantly lengthened Kareems career.

To me, I think Magic was the greatest basketball player ever... Next to maybe West...

I think if his focus hadn't been on running the offense, he could have focused on scoring and outscored MJ in his prime from just about anywhere on the floor. If you're a fan of team basketball, I think you'd see more highlight quality plays from Magic than from MJ. And I think Magic made his team way better than MJ... (MJ didn't really excell until he had the right pieces around him... Magic came in as a Rook and had a significant impact).

So for what it's worth, I think the Magic/Kobe comparison, with Kobe being better, is actually harder to make than the Kobe's better than MJ point...

Professional basketball discussions just begin and end with Magic for me... And Kareem was actually my favorite player.

[ALL HAIL]

Let's talk about this when Kobe hangs 'em up with possibly close to ten rings.

[AZdeuce]

YOu can NOT compare the most selfish player ever to play the game (Kobe) to the most unselfish player ever to play!

Magic: Made everyone around him better
Assist King behind Stockton
Could play any position on the court


Kobe: Needs good players to make him better
King of most minutes played maybe
Not a good judge of talent (Talked Crap about Bynum, wanted him gone)

Magic in his prime>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..Kobe in his prime

[Kilroy]

YOu can NOT compare the most selfish player ever to play the game (Kobe) to the most unselfish player ever to play!

Magic: Made everyone around him better
Assist King behind Stockton
Could play any position on the court

Magic in his prime>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..Kobe in his prime

While I agree with the basic idea of your premis.... That Magic was better than Kobe...

Kobe's selfishness is vastly over-rated... He's no different in his over-riding desire to win at all costs than MJ... He's no worse a team-mate either...

And in both Kobe's and MJ's cases, the record shows having an arrogant and sometimes selfish player on the team isn't such a bad thing...

The only difference is maturity level... MJ had a few years to get adjusted to the NBA before he became 'The Guy' in the league... He had to wait for Magic, Kareem, Bird, etc to fade and for him to get the right pieces around him before he became the sole focus of the NBA limelight... I honestly question if he ever got the ammount of media focus Kobe got...

Kobe came into the league right out of High School and immediately was competing for a championship (not unlike Magic)... He was only in his early 20's when he started getting the rep for being selfish... Largely from Shaq and Phil... Not the most reliable sources...

Kobe: Needs good players to make him better
King of most minutes played maybe
Not a good judge of talent (Talked Crap about Bynum, wanted him gone)

To me, this is why the Comparison between Kobe and MJ is easier... I think this describes MJ pretty well too...

MJ was basically a non-factor until they built the Bulls around him to perfectly suit his style of play...
Judging from his stint in Washington, he's a bad judge of talent...
His teams were nothing without him on the floor and he would never have trusted them to contend without him...
He was and is supremely egotistical... Especially about his basketball talent.

Magic had good players on his team too... But the team wasn't built around him... He came in and took a Minor contender over the top... A lot of people thought Kareem was just about done when Magic came in. And I think he would have been if Magic hadn't come in and started getting more focus and delivering him the ball at exactly the right spot for him night in and night out.

[Tee212]

Different body type, positions played, skill level. NOT COMPARABLE.

[TommyTheCat]

apples and oranges............i like them both but apples better

[kobesmyhomie]

I feel that people dont appreciate how great a player is until he reties. A lot of people will start praising Kobe once he retires instead of hating.

[DubaLakers]

Magic transformed the PG position, he was unguardable. Kobe's one of the best SG to ever play, to me it's not a good comparison position to position.

Here's the better question, who's the best LAL of all time? That's a tough one, but I'd probably go with Magic. Kareem had those 4 brilliant years in MIL, I'd give the nod to Magic. Can you imagine if Magic and Bird came out today with the way medical science and training is those two would be even more brilliant that they already were.

GOAT: I still like Magic, Kobe, Bird 1-3; PF & C are still up in the air, but how do you not take Shaq at the 5 in his prime? I didn't see West, Wilt, or Russell play, and as far as Jordan or Kobe, I'll take Kobe with complete confidence, this Jordan god status crap is beyond annoying; LBJ retiring his #23 in honor of Jordan, STFU.

[Anklebreaker702]

YOu can NOT compare the most selfish player ever to play the game (Kobe) to the most unselfish player ever to play!

Magic: Made everyone around him better
Assist King behind Stockton
Could play any position on the court

Magic in his prime>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..Kobe in his prime

While I agree with the basic idea of your premis.... That Magic was better than Kobe...

Kobe's selfishness is vastly over-rated... He's no different in his over-riding desire to win at all costs than MJ... He's no worse a team-mate either...

And in both Kobe's and MJ's cases, the record shows having an arrogant and sometimes selfish player on the team isn't such a bad thing...

The only difference is maturity level... MJ had a few years to get adjusted to the NBA before he became 'The Guy' in the league... He had to wait for Magic, Kareem, Bird, etc to fade and for him to get the right pieces around him before he became the sole focus of the NBA limelight... I honestly question if he ever got the ammount of media focus Kobe got...

Kobe came into the league right out of High School and immediately was competing for a championship (not unlike Magic)... He was only in his early 20's when he started getting the rep for being selfish... Largely from Shaq and Phil... Not the most reliable sources...

Kobe: Needs good players to make him better
King of most minutes played maybe
Not a good judge of talent (Talked Crap about Bynum, wanted him gone)

To me, this is why the Comparison between Kobe and MJ is easier... I think this describes MJ pretty well too...

MJ was basically a non-factor until they built the Bulls around him to perfectly suit his style of play...
Judging from his stint in Washington, he's a bad judge of talent...
His teams were nothing without him on the floor and he would never have trusted them to contend without him...
He was and is supremely egotistical... Especially about his basketball talent.

Magic had good players on his team too... But the team wasn't built around him... He came in and took a Minor contender over the top... A lot of people thought Kareem was just about done when Magic came in. And I think he would have been if Magic hadn't come in and started getting more focus and delivering him the ball at exactly the right spot for him night in and night out.

Those are good points Kilroy but Kobe does have a little more selfishness than Jordan. Once he got players around him he became surgical with his attack. Most of the time laying back only taking open shots or drives to the rack until the 4th quarter. If they were playing a really good team he usually made sure he got himself going early. Kobe, with all the talent around him seems to not know how to turn it on & off at times. Especially if he off that night. He needs to be OK with deferring if the team is playing well or someone else has it rolling.

[Mamba Venom]

I would personally love to see Kobe try to get career highs in assists, steals, rebs & blocks.

It would do a lot for his legacy if he had career highs of say

81 points
20 assists
15 rebs
10 steals
7 blocks

The case could be made that Kobe could do anything he put his mind to (I think the guy can but its hard to back it up).

I think Kobe and these Lakers are in for a dynasty. I am being optimistic and certainly anything can happen and no one is entitled to a championship, it is something you earn. When its all said and done I don't see how I am going to think of Magic as being a greater Laker than Kobe.

Its uncanny that both were able to play with such great big men, both were the best of their generation and both stumbled when it came to women off the court, the 2 biggest stories of all time about affairs off the court.

[Slava]

Kobe wows me atleast once every week and if you get lucky he throws out a performance like the one against Oklahoma City. But from what I've read, watched and known about Magic, he used to wow his audience atleast 5 times in each game he played.

Kobe is the reason I started following basketball but Magic is greater and has that greater aura that legends possess. Not saying Kobe doesn't have his presence but Magic's aura > Kobe's. By the way how can anyone do the things Magic did as a rookie?

Kobe is the greatest of our time but comparing him to Magic and MJ will sell him slightly a little short imo.

[Tee212]

Magic was great but i also heard his defense was nothing to brag about...is this true? Would magic shut down the other teams best player like jordan would?

[semi-sentient]

Magic was great but i also heard his defense was nothing to brag about...is this true? Would magic shut down the other teams best player like jordan would?

No, but his defense was adequate. A lot of people like to say that Magic and Bird weren't good defenders, but they were above average and smart defenders who got the job done when necessary. They weren't in Jordan's league (just like they aren't in Kobe's) and I think that's why they are knocked, but there aren't many players that are in Jordan's league as far as defense is concerned -- although I do feel that Jordan might be slightly overrated as a defender.

BTW, it's a myth that Jordan would shut down other teams best players. He might have guarded them at times, but it was Pippen who generally filled that role. Even then it's a myth that Pippen would shut down opposing teams best players -- like the whole "Pippen shut down Magic" myth that was being perpetuated throughout the 90's. Jordan/Pippen worked well as a combo (hence the nickname "Dobermans") in addition to being excellent individual defenders, but they weren't consistently locking guys down. Go watch some of the early Finals footage, specifically the first 3-peat, and you'll see what I'm talking about. You'll see ZERO difference between how Jordan and Kobe play defense.

[Kilroy]

Kobe wows me atleast once every week and if you get lucky he throws out a performance like the one against Oklahoma City. But from what I've read, watched and known about Magic, he used to wow his audience atleast 5 times in each game he played.

Magic was amazing... He didn't hit the shots that Kobe and MJ hit... But he made amazing passes and faked people out of their shorts multiple times a night... Everything always in the flow of the game... I can't remember him ever forcing anything.

I was a die-hard Kareem fan... I looked like Birdman when I played right up to the hair and the attitude, but I'd try to play like Admiral... But as I get older, I realize that as great as Kareem was, Magic made him look so much better.

I watched a lot of MJ too and to be honest, I was never really overly impressed... He just looked like a more effective Clyde or Dr. J... What he was doing wasn't really that new and seemed to be more about personal stats that what Magic was doing... Magic was the ultimate team player on the court... He made everyone way better... Worthy, Coop, all those guys... I loved each and every one of them... But I think your fooling yourself if you think any of them would have been an all-star without Magic. He made life so much easier for them.

And if his team needed him to score, Magic would put them on his back and drop 40 on teams while still getting his share of assists and rebounds... 42 points, 15 boards, seven assists and three steals... In the FINALS... As a 20yro ROOKIE... Playing CENTER for KAJ... Was no fluke I can assure you... He had a career FG% over 50... And he could score from anywhere on the floor if that's what was needed...

And he did all that against Darryl Dawkins... The first guy to shatter a backboard on a dunk... He did that twice.

That finals performance might be the greatest single accomplishment in Basketball... Not the 42 points but adding 7 assists and 15 boards... All as a rookie in the biggest game in the NBA... He really was like Magic out there...

Magic was great but i also heard his defense was nothing to brag about...is this true? Would magic shut down the other teams best player like jordan would?

Magic gets a bad rap on D simply because that wasn't the focus of his role on the team... He could gamble and funel guys in to KAJ. And when he needed to he could shut people down. He got a good ammount of steals with his quick hands and he forced a lot of passes. He always stepped in up in the play-offs... That's probably not going to satisfy the detractors, but I saw Magic play solid D when that's what the game and his team called for.

[Tee212]

Thanks for the honest replies guys. I started watching bball cause of magic around in 1992 then he got the aids virus in 1993 iirc?? I remember it was just so fun watching him for his passing aspects. I lost all interest in bball after he retired and started watching again as he made his come back...enters kobe at 17 on the bench. From the day kobe came off the bench i watched his every game as he matured. I surely missed out on magic's prime days