MIN/CHI

[shrink]

Here's something to consider.

Noah's leading the league right now in rebounding at 11.9 in 13 games this season. Last season he averaged 7.6.

Al Jefferson averaged 11 RPG his last three SEASONS. In his last three games, he's averaged 18 PPG and 11 RPG. And he's clearly not 100%, so he's going to get better.

We have a star player, who took a contract for less than his market value to be a Minnesota Timberwolf. He can play the "hard-to-fill" center position, and he's one of the Top 3 low-post scorers in the league. If that doesn't fit the triangle - change the triangle.

If Noah's value = Jefferson's (and I don't believe it does), it's because Noah is at an all-time high, and Jefferson's is at an all-time low. It would be a bad time for MIN to swap them, and I agree that we should wait until Al's 100%, and more importantly, people have noticed.

[Narf]

I posted the Deng + Noah for Jefferson trade all but a week ago, and got lambasted by most. Oh, how quickly things change around here. It's too bad though, the way Noah is playing, Noah probably equals Jefferson in terms of trade value these days.

Not even close.

I've actually thought about this and changed my mind. The Wolves do not need quantity, they need quality. Al Jefferson's value didn't drop just because he's coming back from injury. He's clearly lost some strength and has rust, but he's still Al effin' Jefferson. The preseason #2 ranked center behind Dwight Howard. He'll be just fine by the time we need him to be, and we'll have another draft pick next year to go with him. He needs time to add strength and get back to game shape. That's going to happen, so let's keep the most talented guy shall we?

The only real trade for Jefferson that makes sense is getting an upgrade in talent. It does not make sense to downgrade talent to fill a couple holes. We want holes this year, holes are good for draft picks. We will fill those holes with our 2 or 3 1st round picks + cap space next year.

Well you're obviously wrong.

I think 99% would agree Jefferson's value is at an all time low right now. I'm not saying we should trade Jefferson for Noah, I'm saying his value is down because of the injury. We just need to wait until he's back to his old self.

Yeah right. There's no GM in the league that would give up as much for Noah as they would for Jefferson. Noah at his best is still a far cry from Jefferson. I wasn't saying Jefferson's value didn't go down at all, I said Noah's value wasn't even close. There's a difference between "dropped in value" and "went down in value marginally". And I'm pretty sure "obviously wrong" isn't something you should be saying after claiming Noah = Jefferson.

[Krapinsky]

Narf --

Let's break it down, shall we.

I said [/b]-- Noah probably equals Jefferson in terms of value these days. Remember, Noah is still on his rookie deal and is a much better defender than Jefferson. Jefferson has looked a shell of his former self and knee injuries are complicated. I'm guessing Bulls fans would not be so quick to jump on a Noah for Jefferson trade right not. My guess is they would rather have Noah + $10 extra million in cap space for the next two years. However, I've also said we just shouldn't be throwing Jefferson trades out there right now because his value is at an all time low. My hope and belief is that by January Jefferson will be back to his old self again and a Noah + Deng deal would leave us asking for more. This is no guarantee though. Many players have struggled coming back from injuries -- Kenyon Martin, Gilbert Arenas, Elton Brand -- just to name a few. As a result, it's no guarantee we're ever going to get the old Al back and this has to be taken into account when assessing his value.

You said -- "Al Jefferson's value didn't drop because he's coming back from injury." Yet, somehow you defend saying this by stating -- "I wasn't saying Jefferson's value didn't go down at all, I said Noah's value wasn't even close. " Come again?

[Narf]

Narf --

Let's break it down, shall we.

I said [/b]-- Noah probably equals Jefferson in terms of value these days. Remember, Noah is still on his rookie deal and is a much better defender than Jefferson. Jefferson has looked a shell of his former self and knee injuries are complicated. I'm guessing Bulls fans would not be so quick to jump on a Noah for Jefferson trade right not. My guess is they would rather have Noah + $10 extra million in cap space for the next two years. However, I've also said we just shouldn't be throwing Jefferson trades out there right now because his value is at an all time low. My hope and belief is that by January Jefferson will be back to his old self again and a Noah + Deng deal would leave us asking for more. This is no guarantee though. Many players have struggled coming back from injuries -- Kenyon Martin, Gilbert Arenas, Elton Brand -- just to name a few. As a result, it's no guarantee we're ever going to get the old Al back and this has to be taken into account when assessing his value.

You said -- "Al Jefferson's value didn't drop because he's coming back from injury." Yet, somehow you defend saying this by stating -- "I wasn't saying Jefferson's value didn't go down at all, I said Noah's value wasn't even close. " Come again?

You said "Noah probably equals Jefferson in terms of trade value these days." I said "Not even close". What's hard to understand there?

Al Jefferson's value has gone down because he is not dominant right now. Next year he will be the same player he would have been without the knee injury. There are no more complications. None. His knee is fine, now he just needs to rebuild the muscle in his leg and he'll be the same as he was.

His value has only dipped in terms of what he can do this year. His value has not dipped in terms of what he will do next year. He was averaging 1.7 blocks a game with at least average defense by any matrix (and by my own eyes, if not yours) and he is a high character, team oriented guy who wants to win. You think Al Jefferson is an injury risk, I think Noah is FAR greater a risk to be suspended for smoking pot. Yes he does. Yes he will.

The drop in Jefferson's value is only because he is not his old self right now. Next year all signs, every single one, points to him being who he would have been without injury. So his value has gone down a little simply because teams that want to win now are not quite as interested. Why pay full value now when you can just make that trade in 2 months when he's back to terrorizing opposing centers?

[Krapinsky]

Narf --

Let's break it down, shall we.

I said [/b]-- Noah probably equals Jefferson in terms of value these days. Remember, Noah is still on his rookie deal and is a much better defender than Jefferson. Jefferson has looked a shell of his former self and knee injuries are complicated. I'm guessing Bulls fans would not be so quick to jump on a Noah for Jefferson trade right not. My guess is they would rather have Noah + $10 extra million in cap space for the next two years. However, I've also said we just shouldn't be throwing Jefferson trades out there right now because his value is at an all time low. My hope and belief is that by January Jefferson will be back to his old self again and a Noah + Deng deal would leave us asking for more. This is no guarantee though. Many players have struggled coming back from injuries -- Kenyon Martin, Gilbert Arenas, Elton Brand -- just to name a few. As a result, it's no guarantee we're ever going to get the old Al back and this has to be taken into account when assessing his value.

You said -- "Al Jefferson's value didn't drop because he's coming back from injury." Yet, somehow you defend saying this by stating -- "I wasn't saying Jefferson's value didn't go down at all, I said Noah's value wasn't even close. " Come again?

You said "Noah probably equals Jefferson in terms of trade value these days." I said "Not even close". What's hard to understand there?

Al Jefferson's value has gone down because he is not dominant right now. Next year he will be the same player he would have been without the knee injury. There are no more complications. None. His knee is fine, now he just needs to rebuild the muscle in his leg and he'll be the same as he was.


His value has only dipped in terms of what he can do this year. His value has not dipped in terms of what he will do next year. He was averaging 1.7 blocks a game with at least average defense by any matrix (and by my own eyes, if not yours) and he is a high character, team oriented guy who wants to win. You think Al Jefferson is an injury risk, I think Noah is FAR greater a risk to be suspended for smoking pot. Yes he does. Yes he will.

The drop in Jefferson's value is only because he is not his old self right now. Next year all signs, every single one, points to him being who he would have been without injury. So his value has gone down a little simply because teams that want to win now are not quite as interested. Why pay full value now when you can just make that trade in 2 months when he's back to terrorizing opposing centers?

You are getting a bit ridiculous and are seemingly in denial. No one knows if Jefferson will ever be a 23/12 player again. Will Brand ever be the same player he was prior to his injury? Will Arenas? These players also don't have lingering side effects. If you've ever torn your ACL you know there's also a mental side to the injury. A player may find himself holding back because he doesn't want it to happen again.

You said NOT EVEN CLOSE, yes, that's fine. I took issue with your explanation of why you felt that way, and I already clearly pointed that out to you (Jefferson's value hasn't dropped you said). Now you are only agreeing with me -- that Jefferson's value is low due to his injury. You have completely changed your point of view and made this strictly a Noah/Jefferson debate.

I WIN, YOU LOSE.

And are you really equating Noah's "pot risk" to Al's knee injury? Really? An unlikely five game suspension vs. a torn ACL?