Stockton's real assist total?

NetsForce · Post #1 » by **NetsForce** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:07 pm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

How would Stockton's real assist total look if you factored out how much it was blatantly inflated by Jazz scorekeepers?

Post #2 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:48 pm

NetsForce wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_career.html

How would Stockton's real assist total look if you factored out how much it was blatantly inflated by Jazz scorekeepers?

The stat inflation by scorekeepers is a league-wide problem. If memory serves, Stockton did have a greater deviation between home & away assists than average, but it's not the case that it was drastically greater than his peers. Was trying to find a great thread on APBRmetrics about this, but didn't find it.

NetsForce · Post #3 » by **NetsForce** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:57 pm

So basically Stockton would still have a sizable lead in total assists?

Post #4 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:38 pm

NetsForce wrote:So basically Stockton would still have a sizable lead in total assists?

I think so.

Now, I'm on the record saying Stockton's assists are inflated based on the amount of assists the team racked up, but I wouldn't chalk it up to the scorekeepers as the dominant component of that.

Post #5 » by **rrravenred** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:06 am

It's interesting in the sense that assists are one of the more "elastic" NBA statistics, wheras most of the other ones are clear-cut. Steals and blocks are also a little-bit fuzzy, but there are generally a lot more assists than blocks and steals.

Post #6 » by **TheSecretWeapon** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 7:48 pm

MikeG over at apbrmetrics has done research on home assists bias. There's some data in this thread.

DrunkOnMystery · Post #7 » by **DrunkOnMystery** » Wed Dec 9, 2009 6:49 pm

I'm pretty sure you could subtract 2 assists for every home game of Stockton's career, and he'd still have the lead in career assists by a decent margin.

s_g_b · Post #8 » by **s_g_b** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:06 am

DrunkOnMystery wrote:I'm pretty sure you could subtract 2 assists for every home game of Stockton's career, and he'd still have the lead in career assists by a decent margin.

no way

Post #9 » by **rrravenred** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:31 am

Rank Player AST
1. John Stockton* 15806
2. Jason Kidd 10414
3. Mark Jackson 10334

John Stockton's games: 1504
2 x games: 3008

15806 - 3008 = 12798

That's for all games, not just Home games. Still on top.

Mamba Venom · Post #10 » by **Mamba Venom** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:39 am

take off 2,000

Stockton still has it

Jimmy76 · Post #11 » by **Jimmy76** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:47 am

I think Stocktons assist total will likely stay at the top forever

You cant beat his volume or longevity so where can you match up with him?

Post #12 » by **montestewart** » Mon Jan 4, 2010 12:55 am

Jimmy76 wrote:I think Stocktons assist total will likely stay at the top forever

You cant beat his volume or longevity so where can you match up with him?

Start awarding 1.5 assists for assisted 3Ps and .5 assists if an and 1 FT is awarded and made. Maybe score assists like in hockey, all passes leading to a particular basket count as an assist. Maybe Stockton takes a shining to some young PG and leaves some of his assists to him in his will. I'm working in it; I'll find a way for someone to pass Stockton.

schneiderjazz · Post #13 » by **schneiderjazz** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:41 pm

NetsForce wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_career.html

How would Stockton's real assist total look if you factored out how much it was blatantly inflated by Jazz scorekeepers?

Only the Jazz scorekeepers inflated Stockton's assists total. I'm sure that didn't happen to Magic, Kidd, Nash and all other PG when playing on their home floor. How dare a non-flashy small skinny guy playing for a small market be the number 1 assist man in the NBA! There's gotta be something wrong with it.

NetsForce · Post #14 » by **NetsForce** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:24 pm

schneiderjazz wrote:
NetsForce wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_career.html

How would Stockton's real assist total look if you factored out how much it was blatantly inflated by Jazz scorekeepers?

Only the Jazz scorekeepers inflated Stockton's assists total. I'm sure that didn't happen to Magic, Kidd, Nash and all other PG when playing on their home floor. How dare a non-flashy small skinny guy playing for a small market be the number 1 assist man in the NBA! There's gotta be something wrong with it.

I'm not randomly throwing this out there to pick on Stockton there has been research done on this... As the other posters have pointed out Stockton would still be the #1 assist leader all time so no need to get your panties in a bunch :roll:

Post #15 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:44 am

schneiderjazz wrote:Only the Jazz scorekeepers inflated Stockton's assists total. I'm sure that didn't happen to Magic, Kidd, Nash and all other PG when playing on their home floor. How dare a non-flashy small skinny guy playing for a small market be the number 1 assist man in the NBA! There's gotta be something wrong with it.

Just thought it interesting to point out if you check out the thread SecretWeapon pointed too:

Magic's assists are more inflated by home court statkeeping than Stockton (very inflated)
Kidd's assists are comparably inflated by home court statkeeping, and the amount is pretty mild (both of them, not so bad)
Nash's assists are actually significantly deflated period by home court statkeeping (which is really bizarre, Phoenix scorekeepers are crazy)

Mamba Venom · Post #16 » by **Mamba Venom** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:16 am

Are there recordings of the Utah home games.

Dozer! · Post #17 » by **Dozer!** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:01 am

Did'nt the Stockton led Jazz score more points at home than on the road? Also did'nt the Stockton led Jazz win way more games at home than on the road? With this info, is it possible that Stockton did in fact hand out more assist at home than on the road?

Yes the Jazz score keepers might of gave him some extra assists, but come on. For Stocktons career he only averaged .8 assist less on the road.

BROWN · Post #18 » by **BROWN** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:39 am

Career Home AST: 7644 GP: 669 avg 11.42
Career Road AST: 7137 GP: 671 avg 10.63

Difference = 507

Take away .79 assist for every Home game he's played 7115 AST + 7137 AST (Road) = 14252

Still way above.

ponder276 · Post #19 » by **ponder276** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:30 am

brownwarriors wrote:Career Home AST: 7644 GP: 669 avg 11.42
Career Road AST: 7137 GP: 671 avg 10.63

Difference = 507

Take away .79 assist for every Home game he's played 7115 AST + 7137 AST (Road) = 14252

Still way above.

If the difference is really that small, that's nothing. We should take into account that most teams ACTUALLY DO SCORE MORE ON THE ROAD THAN AT HOME as well, which would make this bias even more negligible.

jicama · Post #20 » by **jicama** » Fri Apr 9, 2010 1:29 pm

Interesting discussion!

The relevant numbers are Ast and FG, and their ratio. League Ast/FG this year is .578 for all teams at home, and .547 on the road.

The ratio of these (578/547) is 1.056 -- There are 5.6% more assists (per FG) awarded at home than on the road.

In the 16 years that Stockton started games (1988-2003), the Jazz averaged 39.1 FG/G at home and 37.2 on the road. That is 4.7% more FG in their home games, which is more of a home court advantage than most teams have. Perhaps due to the altitude?

Or maybe he had flaky teammates who just shot better at home. In any case, Stockton's ratios can also be looked at: He averaged 12.56 Ast/36 Min at home, and 11.46 on the road. That's a sizable disparity of 9.6% more at home.

Stockton's Assist ratio (Home/Away) of 1.096 is divided by the Jazz FG ratio (H/A) of 1.047 to arrive at Stock's H/A 'inflation' of 1.047 : Exactly half of the 9.6% increase is explained by the team's greater number of FG/G at home.

A 4.7% advantage at home is equivalent to an extra 360 assists in 669 games, about .54 per game.

Or, you might notice that 4.7% home inflation is less than league average (this year and previous years). So any deduction you make against Stockton, you might make as much or more against anyone else.
Especially Magic; not Nash.