MVP Rankings 1.0

[5DOM]

LeBron also lost to the Raptors.
NO MVP player can do that.

[INKtastic]

It's not a conspiracy theory, its just his bar is set a little higher.

3 games ago LeBron had 34/8/7 on 12-24 shooting and 9-11 from 3, he scored 12 in the 4th quarter, his team won by 10, and some people were complaining he had a bad game.

Last night he had 25/12/5 on 11-20 shooting, his team won by 16, his PER dropped.

I think the bar is set pretty high for LeBron.

In one of your posts, you said Kobe is shooting a career high FG%. At .483 that's certainly true. But LeBron is also shooting a career high FG%, only his is .523. And one significand difference is Kobe's TS% has actually done down (for the 3rd straight year) to .554. LeBron's TS% has gone up (for the 3rd straight year) and is .623).

Because of these disparities, Kobe has to take 4.1 more shots/game to score 0.3 more points. The bar isn't being set high in a vacuum, it's LeBron setting the bar to a height Kobe can't reach.

[Doctor MJ]

How can Bynum even be on this list, you have to be the MVP of your own team first.

We all know this is Kobe's team.

For that matter 2 ATL guys?

1 team 1 MVP

I actually think that this philosophy is one of the main things voters have to avoid, if for no other reason than this scenario: 2 best players are on the same team, voters are split as to whose best, so each get left off of half the ballots, resulting in neither player winning the MVP. But beyond that, if you really follow that philosophy to it's logical conclusion, you'll either have a completely different metric for All-NBA teams (which I don't see the point of), or you'd have All-NBA teams where you'd have no argument to back your placement of A over B other than "well B's not the best player on his team".

[CzBoobie]

LeBron also lost to the Raptors.
NO MVP player can do that.

Pfff, Jordan lost to them, too...

[Wile E. Coyote]

LeBron is averaging more than twice as many assists as Kobe. Do you think that's insignificant?

It's not insignificant, but Kobe doesn't not play in a system where he could ever put up 8 apg. It just won't happen in the triangle offense.

[INKtastic]

LeBron is averaging more than twice as many assists as Kobe. Do you think that's insignificant?

It's not insignificant, but Kobe doesn't not play in a system where he could ever put up 8 apg. It just won't happen in the triangle offense.

I guess the triangle is the reason that Kobe's eFG% on jump shots is 2.5% lower than LeBron's this year too. And while it may be difficult to average 8 assists in the triangle, it's certainly reasonable for a good passer to average 5 to 7 in the triangle.

[Chris Hansen]

Lets not ignore the injuries of Shaq, Moon, AV, and Delonte being out the whole season so far.

While the Lakers lost pau, Bynum emerged as a force and filled in for pau very nice.

[CzBoobie]

LeBron is averaging more than twice as many assists as Kobe. Do you think that's insignificant?

It's not insignificant, but Kobe doesn't not play in a system where he could ever put up 8 apg. It just won't happen in the triangle offense.

He is still averaging the least assists since he was 20...while LeBron is at his career high.

[Doctor MJ]

It's not insignificant, but Kobe doesn't not play in a system where he could ever put up 8 apg. It just won't happen in the triangle offense.

Dude, don't keep fighting this battle. As people have made clear, LeBron's stat are significantly ahead of Kobe's pretty much across the board. You're welcome to argue for Kobe, but the argument that LeBron's stats aren't really better than Kobe's so people who argue for LeBron while pointing to that are biased is a non-starter.

[doc shivers]

Nash with 20/16 today

[Wile E. Coyote]

I guess the triangle is the reason that Kobe's eFG% on jump shots is 2.5% lower than LeBron's this year too. And while it may be difficult to average 8 assists in the triangle, it's certainly reasonable for a good passer to average 5 to 7 in the triangle.

Kobe hasn't hit his 3PT% as well as he usually does, or it would be about the same as James. I'm sure as the year goes on, he'll take more outside shots, which will raise his outside percentage.

And while it may be difficult to average 8 assists in the triangle, it's certainly reasonable for a good passer to average 5 to 7 in the triangle.

He usually does average 5-7 apg on a yearly basis. I'm sure by the end of the year, he'll be right around 5-6 apg.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Dude, don't keep fighting this battle. As people have made clear, LeBron's stat are significantly ahead of Kobe's pretty much across the board. You're welcome to argue for Kobe, but the argument that LeBron's stats aren't really better than Kobe's so people who argue for LeBron while pointing to that are biased is a non-starter.

I never implied that LeBron's stats weren't great. What I would argue though is that he's not blowing Kobe away statistically. It's not like we are comparing a 20/5/5 guy with a 30/10/10 guy.

[INKtastic]

I guess the triangle is the reason that Kobe's eFG% on jump shots is 2.5% lower than LeBron's this year too. And while it may be difficult to average 8 assists in the triangle, it's certainly reasonable for a good passer to average 5 to 7 in the triangle.

Kobe hasn't hit his 3PT% as well as he usually does, or it would be about the same as James. I'm sure as the year goes on, he'll take more outside shots, which will raise his outside percentage.

And while it may be difficult to average 8 assists in the triangle, it's certainly reasonable for a good passer to average 5 to 7 in the triangle.

He usually does average 5-7 apg on a yearly basis. I'm sure by the end of the year, he'll be right around 5-6 apg.

You don't win MVP by theoretically being able to play better than you are. ANd youy're streching a bit to say Kobe usually averages in the 5-7 assist range, his career high is 6.0 and that was the year Phil didn't coach him. His career average is 4.6.

[CzBoobie]

Dude, don't keep fighting this battle. As people have made clear, LeBron's stat are significantly ahead of Kobe's pretty much across the board. You're welcome to argue for Kobe, but the argument that LeBron's stats aren't really better than Kobe's so people who argue for LeBron while pointing to that are biased is a non-starter.

I never implied that LeBron's stats weren't great. What I would argue though is that he's not blowing Kobe away statistically. It's not like we are comparing a 20/5/5 guy with a 30/10/10 guy.

When comparing between two elite players, he does...really.

[Doctor MJ]

I never implied that LeBron's stats weren't great. What I would argue though is that he's not blowing Kobe away statistically. It's not like we are comparing a 20/5/5 guy with a 30/10/10 guy.

Guess it all depends on what your standards are. LeBron is once again battling for the top PER season of all-time, and Kobe's not in the top 100, and he very clearly isn't going to have a chance in hell and getting to level LeBron's at. Now, you may not care about stats like these, but the players are pretty clearly in two different leagues by them, so again, it's pretty dang clear how some people would see the difference there as huge, and not something to be thrown aside because of a couple game's difference in team record.

[YLSKillaCam]

PER isn't an index of how great a player is. PER is an index that takes into account a bunch of different raw statistics and transforms them into a single number. It is basically a production statistic.

Obviously, Lebron produces more as an individual player than Kobe. He gets more rebounds, more assists and shoots a higher percentage. A lot of players produce more than Kobe. I mean, Kobe is elite, but he's not exactly a production monster.

Kobe's the best player in the game though because of his experience and intelligence. He just picks teams apart and his leadership in coordinating the efforts of a championship caliber players is nothing to sneeze at.

Kobe deserves credit for his leadership of players who are already great. That's what made Magic and Bird MVPs. They led great players to even greater heights. Kobe's doing that.

Lebron and Kobe are neck and neck for MVP. They bring different qualities to their teams. Kobe's greatest asset is leadership and experience. Lebron's greatest asset is his individual production. Hard to say which one is more valuable though.

[Doctor MJ]

PER isn't an index of how great a player is. PER is an index that takes into account a bunch of different raw statistics and transforms them into a single number. It is basically a production statistic.

Obviously, Lebron produces more as an individual player than Kobe. He gets more rebounds, more assists and shoots a higher percentage. A lot of players produce more than Kobe. I mean, Kobe is elite, but he's not exactly a production monster.

Kobe's the best player in the game though because of his experience and intelligence. He just picks teams apart and his leadership in coordinating the efforts of a championship caliber players is nothing to sneeze at.

Kobe deserves credit for his leadership of players who are already great. That's what made Magic and Bird MVPs. They led great players to even greater heights. Kobe's doing that.

Lebron and Kobe are neck and neck for MVP. They bring different qualities to their teams. Kobe's greatest asset is leadership and experience. Lebron's greatest asset is his individual production. Hard to say which one is more valuable though.

Sigh, let me quote my last post:

Now, you may not care about stats like these, but the players are pretty clearly in two different leagues by them, so again, it's pretty dang clear how some people would see the difference there as huge, and not something to be thrown aside because of a couple game's difference in team record.

To give even more context, I was responding to someone who claimed that it was unreasonable for anyone to claim that LeBron's stats were significantly better than Kobe's.

So anyway, main point here: You're not responding to my point.

I will respond to your post though in regards to Kobe's "leadership and intelligence". I think that it's pretty far from clear cut that anyone can make such claims. The coordination of his talented teammates could easily be credited primarily to Jackson since Jackson is a GOAT coach candidate for exactly those reasons. He also plays in a complex system whose down side is supposed to be that having smarter teammates won't help you very much - you've got to understand it yourself. And how is LeBron's leadership and intelligence lacking? LeBron's leadership skills are obvious, as is his BBIQ. Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

With all that said, I've got LeBron and Kobe neck and neck for the MVP at this point.

[YLSKillaCam]

PER isn't an index of how great a player is. PER is an index that takes into account a bunch of different raw statistics and transforms them into a single number. It is basically a production statistic.

Obviously, Lebron produces more as an individual player than Kobe. He gets more rebounds, more assists and shoots a higher percentage. A lot of players produce more than Kobe. I mean, Kobe is elite, but he's not exactly a production monster.

Kobe's the best player in the game though because of his experience and intelligence. He just picks teams apart and his leadership in coordinating the efforts of a championship caliber players is nothing to sneeze at.

Kobe deserves credit for his leadership of players who are already great. That's what made Magic and Bird MVPs. They led great players to even greater heights. Kobe's doing that.

Lebron and Kobe are neck and neck for MVP. They bring different qualities to their teams. Kobe's greatest asset is leadership and experience. Lebron's greatest asset is his individual production. Hard to say which one is more valuable though.

Sigh, let me quote my last post:

Now, you may not care about stats like these, but the players are pretty clearly in two different leagues by them, so again, it's pretty dang clear how some people would see the difference there as huge, and not something to be thrown aside because of a couple game's difference in team record.

To give even more context, I was responding to someone who claimed that it was unreasonable for anyone to claim that LeBron's stats were significantly better than Kobe's.

So anyway, main point here: You're not responding to my point.

I will respond to your post though in regards to Kobe's "leadership and intelligence". I think that it's pretty far from clear cut that anyone can make such claims. The coordination of his talented teammates could easily be credited primarily to Jackson since Jackson is a GOAT coach candidate for exactly those reasons. He also plays in a complex system whose down side is supposed to be that having smarter teammates won't help you very much - you've got to understand it yourself. And how is LeBron's leadership and intelligence lacking? LeBron's leadership skills are obvious, as is his BBIQ. Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

With all that said, I've got LeBron and Kobe neck and neck for the MVP at this point.

I think it is pretty obvious that you can credit both a coach and a great player for the success of the team.

I also think you forgot that Coach Jackson is a GOAT level coach because he had great players like Jordan, Shaq and Kobe who could get the job done on the hardwood. Each of those players is top 10 of ALL TIME. Not to shabby talent to work with.

I'm not going to respond to the points about Lebron. I wasn't suggesting that Lebron lacked intelligence or leadership qualities. I do think Kobe is a smarter player with more experience and is a better leader by virtue of leading his squad to the championship. If you want to challenge that account, fine. I do think Lebron is a more productive player.

MVP is a toss up.

[Cammo101]

Dwight is beasting lately. Time for him to move up in 2.0.

[Wile E. Coyote]

I never implied that LeBron's stats weren't great. What I would argue though is that he's not blowing Kobe away statistically. It's not like we are comparing a 20/5/5 guy with a 30/10/10 guy.

Guess it all depends on what your standards are. LeBron is once again battling for the top PER season of all-time, and Kobe's not in the top 100, and he very clearly isn't going to have a chance in hell and getting to level LeBron's at. Now, you may not care about stats like these, but the players are pretty clearly in two different leagues by them, so again, it's pretty dang clear how some people would see the difference there as huge, and not something to be thrown aside because of a couple game's difference in team record.

I think team record will be a huge factor at the end of the year. If the Lakers have won 5-10 more games than the Cavs, and Kobe's numbers are even within a whiff of LeBron's, he has a great chance to win the MVP award.

Stats are not everything, otherwise Michael Jordan would have won 10 MVP awards.