MVP Rankings 1.0

[Chris Hansen]

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Nash
4. Melo
5. Howard

[Wile E. Coyote]

Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

You could say it's a lack of IQ, or you could say it's just confidence in being able to hit difficult shots. He's arguably hit more difficult shots than anyone in league history, so can you fault him?

[Doctor MJ]

Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

You could say it's a lack of IQ, or you could say it's just confidence in being able to hit difficult shots. He's arguably hit more difficult shots than anyone in league history, so can you fault him?

I said "attempt" not "hit" because he misses so many of them. This is why his "clutch" stats are always so much worse than expected. Not saying you can't defend him ("he has no other option because..."), but if he were hitting shots with an efficiency anywhere near the ballpark of LeBron these discussions would go very differently.

[Doctor MJ]

I think team record will be a huge factor at the end of the year. If the Lakers have won 5-10 more games than the Cavs, and Kobe's numbers are even within a whiff of LeBron's, he has a great chance to win the MVP award.

Stats are not everything, otherwise Michael Jordan would have won 10 MVP awards.

I don't disagree with this (except the 10 MVPs for Jordan which is a slight exaggeration).

[Paydro70]

Probably he should have won about 7, I guess.

Seriously, the Kobe "lifting his teammates" argument is just dumb, as dumb as it is to apply it to LeBron. He wasn't lifting his teammates when they were missing the playoffs or losing in the first round. But since he's got a dream team around him and they're crushing the league, now he's an awesome teammate and is making everyone around him better? Please.

There's already an award for team success, it's called the championship. The MVP should be about what individual plays the best in a particular season, whether he's surrounded by scrubs or all-stars. LeBron is flagrantly playing the best, and should be the leader in the MVP race until that is no longer the case.

1. LeBron
2. Dirk
3. Kobe
4. Melo

[Cammo101]

1. LeBron
2. Dirk
3. Kobe
4. Nash
5. Melo
6. Dwight

[Bgil]

So anyway, main point here: You're not responding to my point.

I will respond to your post though in regards to Kobe's "leadership and intelligence". I think that it's pretty far from clear cut that anyone can make such claims. The coordination of his talented teammates could easily be credited primarily to Jackson since Jackson is a GOAT coach candidate for exactly those reasons.

Jackson gets credit as coach but Kobe clearly has a ton of input into the strategy and tactics of the team. For instance,

Kobe got Rudy T to re-implement some triangle sequences.
He came up with the idea of speeding up the offense to better utilize Farmar's skills (in 2008).
He and Phil (together) came up with the idea of using himself as a decoy to get easy buckets for Gasol and Odom (2008).
He choose to vacate the post in order to allow Gasol/Bynum and Artest to operate there more frequently (notice how much Kobe isn't in the post now that Gasol is back?)
He pressured Phil into relieving much of the guard/initiator duties from Smush and Odom.
He came up with the idea of using himself as a decoy in the playoffs against the Suns even though he dropped 40+ on 50% on them in the regular season.
He choose to eliminate baseline iso's from his game to allow Fisher to spot up from there more often (2007/8).
He personally told the team that he would change his game to allow Payton to fit in better (allowing Payton postups and such).
He came up with the idea of letting Mihm and Kwame get going in the early parts of the game and saving his own game for the second half.
Kobe lead the league in scoring twice and for the early part of this season by dominating the post spots... he makes the transition from those roles into being more of a perimeter player look incredibly natural and he does it because of the skillset of the players around him... even when the players weren't talented (Smush) he changed positions to deal with their weaknesses.
etc. etc.
All of this is confirmed by the various local papers and/or direct comments from players and coaches.

He also plays in a complex system whose down side is supposed to be that having smarter teammates won't help you very much - you've got to understand it yourself. And how is LeBron's leadership and intelligence lacking? LeBron's leadership skills are obvious, as is his BBIQ. Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

With all that said, I've got LeBron and Kobe neck and neck for the MVP at this point.

I question Lebron's leadership for not getting that damn offense changed. Sure, Mo Williams looks great now that they're not playing Lebron-ball 24/7 but as soon as the playoffs roll around again you'll see Lebron-ball make a resurgence and Mo will be on a milk carton again.
Lebron needs to stop telling players to get out his way and make concessions in their game for him. He needs to make concessions in his game for them (He can make concessions in his game and still be a superstar) That's why the players around him seem to go there and suck so bad... Shaq was an all-star last season and now look at him.... Wally was a solid scorer everywhere but Cleveland (even in Seattle so don't give me that crap about him getting injuried or somehow worse between CLE and SEA), Mo looked like crap when push came to shove, Larry Hughes was an All-Star in Washington even though he was playing with a shoot-first ball dominant PG, Big Z, Shannon Brown, Damon Jones, Marshall etc.
The list of players who look much worse than they really are is pretty staggering. Meanwhile, Kobe and Steve Nash are rejuvenating careers left and right.

[Doctor MJ]

Shaq was an all-star last season and now look at him

Sorry to appear to ignore the rest of your post Bgil. Good points, but I've been wanting to get this off my chest:

Shaq being named all-star last year made me bang my head against the wall. It's the classic case of somebody getting credit simply because their team is choosing to give them opportunity. Shaq's stay in Phoenix coincided with them getting significantly worse, and then then getting much better when he was gone. The way his numbers fell off this year is basically what you might expect when you're team realizes it's silly to try to make you a major focal point of the team's offense.

[Chris Hansen]

So anyway, main point here: You're not responding to my point.

I will respond to your post though in regards to Kobe's "leadership and intelligence". I think that it's pretty far from clear cut that anyone can make such claims. The coordination of his talented teammates could easily be credited primarily to Jackson since Jackson is a GOAT coach candidate for exactly those reasons.

Jackson gets credit as coach but Kobe clearly has a ton of input into the strategy and tactics of the team. For instance,

Kobe got Rudy T to re-implement some triangle sequences.
He came up with the idea of speeding up the offense to better utilize Farmar's skills (in 2008).
He and Phil (together) came up with the idea of using himself as a decoy to get easy buckets for Gasol and Odom (2008).
He choose to vacate the post in order to allow Gasol/Bynum and Artest to operate there more frequently (notice how much Kobe isn't in the post now that Gasol is back?)
He pressured Phil into relieving much of the guard/initiator duties from Smush and Odom.
He came up with the idea of using himself as a decoy in the playoffs against the Suns even though he dropped 40+ on 50% on them in the regular season.
He choose to eliminate baseline iso's from his game to allow Fisher to spot up from there more often (2007/8).
He personally told the team that he would change his game to allow Payton to fit in better (allowing Payton postups and such).
He came up with the idea of letting Mihm and Kwame get going in the early parts of the game and saving his own game for the second half.
Kobe lead the league in scoring twice and for the early part of this season by dominating the post spots... he makes the transition from those roles into being more of a perimeter player look incredibly natural and he does it because of the skillset of the players around him... even when the players weren't talented (Smush) he changed positions to deal with their weaknesses.
etc. etc.
All of this is confirmed by the various local papers and/or direct comments from players and coaches.

He also plays in a complex system whose down side is supposed to be that having smarter teammates won't help you very much - you've got to understand it yourself. And how is LeBron's leadership and intelligence lacking? LeBron's leadership skills are obvious, as is his BBIQ. Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

With all that said, I've got LeBron and Kobe neck and neck for the MVP at this point.

I question Lebron's leadership for not getting that damn offense changed. Sure, Mo Williams looks great now that they're not playing Lebron-ball 24/7 but as soon as the playoffs roll around again you'll see Lebron-ball make a resurgence and Mo will be on a milk carton again.
Lebron needs to stop telling players to get out his way and make concessions in their game for him. He needs to make concessions in his game for them (He can make concessions in his game and still be a superstar) That's why the players around him seem to go there and suck so bad... Shaq was an all-star last season and now look at him.... Wally was a solid scorer everywhere but Cleveland (even in Seattle so don't give me that crap about him getting injuried or somehow worse between CLE and SEA), Mo looked like crap when push came to shove, Larry Hughes was an All-Star in Washington even though he was playing with a shoot-first ball dominant PG, Big Z, Shannon Brown, Damon Jones, Marshall etc.
The list of players who look much worse than they really are is pretty staggering. Meanwhile, Kobe and Steve Nash are rejuvenating careers left and right.

I dont know if this is serious or not?
Like if it is, i dont even know where to start...

[Bgil]

Probably he should have won about 7, I guess.

Seriously, the Kobe "lifting his teammates" argument is just dumb, as dumb as it is to apply it to LeBron. He wasn't lifting his teammates when they were missing the playoffs or losing in the first round. But since he's got a dream team around him and they're crushing the league, now he's an awesome teammate and is making everyone around him better? Please.

bull. Jumaine Jones, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Derek Fisher, Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Trevor Ariza, Lamar Odom etc. all had their games shine next to Kobe. Even Caron shined next to Kobe during the last part of the season he was here (although you can chalk that up to sheer improvement of a lotto pick).

Lamar is a great example because he was a Laker in the Rudy T/Frank Hamblen days. Every season he's been a Laker (except this current season) he's shot better than his non-Laker days. In fact, his three seasons prior to being a Laker had him at 42%, 43% and 43% shooting. His first three Laker seasons: 47%, 48%, and 47%. Then during his first full year at starting PF he was at 52.5%.

Kwame Brown went from 46% pre-Lakers to 53% and 59% as a Laker.

Smush Parker... nuff said.

Raise your hand if you think Ronny Turiaf will hit 55% shooting ever again?
What about Brian Cook shooting 51% from the field?
Radman is a hell of shooter but he'll never hit those percentages again either.

Shannon Brown was in Cleveland less than a year before he joined the Lakers. Now he looks like the next Ariza... I told you guys three years ago that he was better than Farmar and people doubted me. No longer.

Speaking of Ariza... 38%. Artest 45%.

[Bgil]

Shaq was an all-star last season and now look at him

Sorry to appear to ignore the rest of your post Bgil. Good points, but I've been wanting to get this off my chest:

Shaq being named all-star last year made me bang my head against the wall. It's the classic case of somebody getting credit simply because their team is choosing to give them opportunity. Shaq's stay in Phoenix coincided with them getting significantly worse, and then then getting much better when he was gone. The way his numbers fell off this year is basically what you might expect when you're team realizes it's silly to try to make you a major focal point of the team's offense.

I think that point is way overblown. The Suns suffered a lot last season because of Amare's injury. they would have surely won more games had he been healthy. This season they've only played 4 teams with winning records, losing twice.

That said, I think the Suns are a better team than last season but it's nowhere near as pronounced as their (current) league-leading record would make it seem. There schedule has been extremely soft so far.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Lebron needs to stop telling players to get out his way and make concessions in their game for him. He needs to make concessions in his game for them (He can make concessions in his game and still be a superstar) That's why the players around him seem to go there and suck so bad...

Laughable at BEST.

Shaq was an all-star last season and now look at him....

It's called a slower pace, a completely different team, and not being nearly as much of a focal point.

Wally was a solid scorer everywhere but Cleveland (even in Seattle so don't give me that crap about him getting injuried or somehow worse between CLE and SEA),

Wally was a shooter in his thirties battling knee problems. His production had steadily gone down over the past two years, and HISTORY says when shooters fall, they fall hard.

Not to mention, his knee problems were APPARENT if you actually watched the dude play.

Mo looked like crap when push came to shove,

That's LeBron's fault? LeBron spoon-fed Mo the best looks of his career and parlayed that into Mo's highest shooting percentages of his career. LeBron kept giving Mo the same looks in the playoffs, and Mo clanked them off the front and back of the rim.

Larry Hughes was an All-Star in Washington even though he was playing with a shoot-first ball dominant PG,

Hughes was never an efficient player, just a volume scorer.

When he came to Cleveland, his brother died(which took a HUGE toll on him), and Larry suffered a slew of injuries. The organization didn't have a PG, so they asked him to play PG(out of position), and he admitted not really caring about winning. Can't really blame LeBron for Hughes getting injured and playing the point guard.

Big Z,

Funny, because Big Z had his best years AFTER LeBron became a Cavalier and became an all-star with LeBron. So, your argument holds no water there, and he only looks bad now because he's on a steep decline(it happens to old bigs)

Shannon Brown

He never played. Can't blame LeBron for that. He had a bad relationship that he created with the coaches and bought himself a ticket out of town. Remember, he was bad in Charlotte as well with Larry Brown. Phil Jackson, the triangle offense, and him realizing he had one foot into the European leagues are what made him useful. Not Kobe.

Damon Jones,

Damon Jones was Damon Jones, he just proved his one good year in Miami was an aberration. Look at him throughout his career, and his numbers in Cleveland were right in line with that.

Marshall

He was in his twilight years when he came to Cleveland. That's like saying Kobe's better because Shaq won the MVP when he played with Kobe and now he's not even near that with LeBron. It's just an unreasonable statement.

[Doctor MJ]

I think that point is way overblown. The Suns suffered a lot last season because of Amare's injury. they would have surely won more games had he been healthy. This season they've only played 4 teams with winning records, losing twice.

That said, I think the Suns are a better team than last season but it's nowhere near as pronounced as their (current) league-leading record would make it seem. There schedule has been extremely soft so far.

They were 30-23 before Amare got injured last year, on pace for 46 wins which is exactly where they ended up. Very clearly Phoenix is significantly better than that now.

Should also be noted that the team switched coaches about the same time as the Amare injury, which meant a shift away from Shaq-focus toward Nash-focus, which explains why the team didn't miss a beat when they lost Amare: As bad as losing Amare was, shifting the focus away from Shaq had a positive effect on the same order of magnitude.

[mike-]

Seriously, the Kobe "lifting his teammates" argument is just dumb, as dumb as it is to apply it to LeBron. He wasn't lifting his teammates when they were missing the playoffs or losing in the first round. But since he's got a dream team around him and they're crushing the league, now he's an awesome teammate and is making everyone around him better? Please.

Kobe has always been excellent at making his teammates better, which is funny because that was what he was criticized for when his team wasn't winning as much despite the fact that everyone he was playing with were shooting career highs.

[Bgil]

Laughable at BEST.

Except that... Kobe did it and they won championships. KG/PP/Allen did it and they won a title. Duncan did it and they won championships. Lebron did it somewhat for West and Williams last season and they won 67 games. He stopped in the playoffs and they got smoked by the Magic.

It's called a slower pace, a completely different team, and not being nearly as much of a focal point.

No **** sherlock. I've said for years that the Cavs need to speed up their offense. In order to do that Lebron would have to handle a lot less and play off the ball a lot more.

Wally was a shooter in his thirties battling knee problems. His production had steadily gone down over the past two years, and HISTORY says when shooters fall, they fall hard.

Not to mention, his knee problems were APPARENT if you actually watched the dude play.

Once again, were his knee problems APPARENT in Seattle or did he injure his knee on the plane ride to Cleveland?

That's LeBron's fault? LeBron spoon-fed Mo the best looks of his career and parlayed that into Mo's highest shooting percentages of his career. LeBron kept giving Mo the same looks in the playoffs, and Mo clanked them off the front and back of the rim.

While I haven't watched nearly as many Cavs games as most of the Cavs fans on this forum have I can still say that's just b.s.
In the game I saw Mo and West were creating a lot of their own offense. I was actually surprise at how much offense they were able to create and how little they actually played off Lebron or anyone for that matter. 82games backs me up:
Lets look at percentage of assisted jump shots:
Big Z: 87%, Wallace: 71%, Varejao: 79, Wally: 79%, Smith: 95%, Pavlovic: 76%, Gibson: 76%. So one would guess Mo and West would be right around the same 70 to 80 percent, right? Nope. 52% and 55% respectively. By comparison, no one on the Heat, Magic, or Lakers have numbers that low except Kobe, Wade, Bynum, and Hedo.

I did watch the Cavs playoff games and the offense was more like that of 2008. Lebron-ball domination all the time. I don't even know the Cavs offense all that well and I could see a HUGE difference from game 1.

When he came to Cleveland, his brother died(which took a HUGE toll on him), and Larry suffered a slew of injuries. The organization didn't have a PG, so they asked him to play PG(out of position), and he admitted not really caring about winning. Can't really blame LeBron for Hughes getting injured and playing the point guard.

Yeah, that's typical Larry Hughes. As for playing PG, the only PG that could succeed in the Cavs offense is a scoring guard anyway.

Funny, because Big Z had his best years AFTER LeBron became a Cavalier and became an all-star with LeBron. So, your argument holds no water there, and he only looks bad now because he's on a steep decline(it happens to old bigs)

My point is that the LBJBD offense is the problem. Arguably, Big Z's best seasons were the one's immediately BEFORE the Cavs went to Lebron-ball. Further, I believe that Big Z has adjusted his game to Lebron and in the process the Cavs lost their only legit post threat. They turned a 7'3 center with a solid post game (and the offensive rebounding game to match) into Channing Frye.
He's (was/is) being misused IMO. Last year, when he even started floating out to the three point line... yuck!

Although that's somewhat immaterial now because he's getting old.

He never played. Can't blame LeBron for that. He had a bad relationship that he created with the coaches and bought himself a ticket out of town. Remember, he was bad in Charlotte as well with Larry Brown. Phil Jackson, the triangle offense, and him realizing he had one foot into the European leagues are what made him useful. Not Kobe.

Didn't know he had a problem with the coaches. I'll concede that. But he wasn't horrible in Charlotte. He just wasn't someone they thought they could build around nor is he a real PG.
The triangle deserves very little credit here because Shannon isn't a triangle-style guard. He can't post, he's not a great passer or shooter, he's not good without the ball etc.

Phil and Kobe (the leadership... the guys who set the tone for the team) deserve credit because they/the Lakers encourage players to come in an do what they can do best... and no more. they move players around in order to find the best fit instead of trying to force players into roles which they might not be accustomed. Kobe could easily pull an AI or LBJ, say he's going to play his game to his strengths and everyone else has to get in where they fit in... but he doesn't do that.

If you watch closely you'll see that Brown only plays PG when Kobe's on the floor. Otherwise he comes in at the two alongside Farmar. Occasionally they mix it up with Odom playing some guard but really they never give Brown the anything he can't handle... which is why he's successful. Smush and Fisher are basically the same thing.

[Bgil]

I think that point is way overblown. The Suns suffered a lot last season because of Amare's injury. they would have surely won more games had he been healthy. This season they've only played 4 teams with winning records, losing twice.

That said, I think the Suns are a better team than last season but it's nowhere near as pronounced as their (current) league-leading record would make it seem. There schedule has been extremely soft so far.

They were 30-23 before Amare got injured last year, on pace for 46 wins which is exactly where they ended up. Very clearly Phoenix is significantly better than that now.

Should also be noted that the team switched coaches about the same time as the Amare injury, which meant a shift away from Shaq-focus toward Nash-focus, which explains why the team didn't miss a beat when they lost Amare: As bad as losing Amare was, shifting the focus away from Shaq had a positive effect on the same order of magnitude.

I agree that the shift to an uptempo style helped them a lot. But having Amare and Shaq in that uptempo style would make them an even better team. Shaq shouldn't be the focus of the offense but having him around as a second/third fiddle wouldn't hurt.

[Don Draper]

Why do people even humor Bgil?

[Bgil]

If only people could use my words as signatures as much as they do yours...

[INKtastic]

I agree that the shift to an uptempo style helped them a lot. But having Amare and Shaq in that uptempo style would make them an even better team. Shaq shouldn't be the focus of the offense but having him around as a second/third fiddle wouldn't hurt.

this seems to contradict your criticism of shaq's play in cleveland.

[JimMurray]

1. Kobe
2. Nash
3. Lebron