MVP Rankings 1.0

[JimMurray]

It's Kobe, than Nash, then Lebron. I'm going to emphasize stats less this season, and my reasoning is this:

When you attempt to compare statistics for purposes of determining the MVP, what you have is a tangible element that looks appealing on the surface, but at the end of the day favors players on worse teams. Steve Nash will never put up Lebron number, neither will Kobe. Lebron is forced to produce what he does in order to keep his team in the hunt, this means his numbers will be inflated, and it does not preclude the demonstrated fact that Kobe and Wade can put up similar numbers. When Gasol was out, and they were playing out of sync still trying to acclimate to the addition of Ron Artest, Kobe was averaging 35 ppg and winning games by himself the same way Lebron is now. I don't think he should be penalized because his PER isn't above 30.0, since the system in which he plays does not allow it. Furthermore, his team does not require it, and him playing for that is counter productive to the ultimate team goal of winning a championship.

To me, Kobe is the MVP because he the most malleable of all the MVP candidates. If you need a post scorer, Kobe's got it; if you need a three point threat, Kobe's got it.; if you need a clutch play, Kobe's got it; if you need lock down defense, Kobe's got it; if you need a facilitator, Kobe's got it, if you need someone to carry the team, Kobe's got it. If you ask me who what player do I want to win one game, and I can have anybody in the league, give me Kobe. He's the most versatile, he's the most adaptable, more importantly he can do it all on a superstar level. I'm not saying that Lebron is not this (Nash is definitely not this), but Lebron can't do all of that. At least not right now he can't. His mid-range game isn't as good, his outside game isn't as good, his post game isn't even close, and he's nowhere near as adaptable to all situations as Kobe.

Kobe's the MVP right now.

[MixedUp]

On the 20 men shortlist for MVP Rankings 2.0 which will be made on Thursday are:

7 Eastern Conference Players
13 Western Conference Players

4 Centers
9 Forwards
7 Guards

1 Cavalier
1 Nugget
2 Lakers
1 Maverick
1 Thunder
1 Heat
2 Jazz
1 Spur
1 Magic
2 Bucks
2 Suns
1 Blazer
1 Celtic
2 Hawks
1 King

[prekazi]

It's Kobe, than Nash, then Lebron. I'm going to emphasize stats less this season, and my reasoning is this:

When you attempt to compare statistics for purposes of determining the MVP, what you have is a tangible element that looks appealing on the surface, but at the end of the day favors players on worse teams. Steve Nash will never put up Lebron number, neither will Kobe. Lebron is forced to produce what he does in order to keep his team in the hunt, this means his numbers will be inflated, and it does not preclude the demonstrated fact that Kobe and Wade can put up similar numbers. When Gasol was out, and they were playing out of sync still trying to acclimate to the addition of Ron Artest, Kobe was averaging 35 ppg and winning games by himself the same way Lebron is now. I don't think he should be penalized because his PER isn't above 30.0, since the system in which he plays does not allow it. Furthermore, his team does not require it, and him playing for that is counter productive to the ultimate team goal of winning a championship.

To me, Kobe is the MVP because he the most malleable of all the MVP candidates. If you need a post scorer, Kobe's got it; if you need a three point threat, Kobe's got it.; if you need a clutch play, Kobe's got it; if you need lock down defense, Kobe's got it; if you need a facilitator, Kobe's got it, if you need someone to carry the team, Kobe's got it. If you ask me who what player do I want to win one game, and I can have anybody in the league, give me Kobe. He's the most versatile, he's the most adaptable, more importantly he can do it all on a superstar level. I'm not saying that Lebron is not this (Nash is definitely not this), but Lebron can't do all of that. At least not right now he can't. His mid-range game isn't as good, his outside game isn't as good, his post game isn't even close, and he's nowhere near as adaptable to all situations as Kobe.

Kobe's the MVP right now.

Nope, Kobe isn't putting LeBron numbers because he just can't. He can never average 8 assists or shoot better than %50. It's not about "being forced to do" it's about limits. He's a less efficient scorer and on "passing", he's not on Bron's level. Well he can average 35 points per game but it won't be as effective as LeBron's.

I really wonder why numbers never back the argument "LeBron isn't skilled as Kobe or even as Wade/Melo/Durant/Granger bla bla". I guess it'll continue to be the biggest myth of the NBA. And if you're going to bring the "winning a ring" argument, come on we all know that LeBron would have several rings and Finals MVP awards if he had Kobe's teams.

MVP so far is clearly Steve Nash. They have the best record and If it wasn't for him Phoenix would be nowhere near this level. But I can guarantee you that he won't win the MVP in the end.

I rate Kobe and LeBron as 2nd tiers and Melo&Dwight are following them.

[Wile E. Coyote]

And if you're going to bring the "winning a ring" argument, come on we all know that LeBron would have several rings and Finals MVP awards if he had Kobe's teams.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

[YLSKillaCam]

PER isn't an index of how great a player is. PER is an index that takes into account a bunch of different raw statistics and transforms them into a single number. It is basically a production statistic.

Obviously, Lebron produces more as an individual player than Kobe. He gets more rebounds, more assists and shoots a higher percentage. A lot of players produce more than Kobe. I mean, Kobe is elite, but he's not exactly a production monster.

Kobe's the best player in the game though because of his experience and intelligence. He just picks teams apart and his leadership in coordinating the efforts of a championship caliber players is nothing to sneeze at.

Kobe deserves credit for his leadership of players who are already great. That's what made Magic and Bird MVPs. They led great players to even greater heights. Kobe's doing that.

Lebron and Kobe are neck and neck for MVP. They bring different qualities to their teams. Kobe's greatest asset is leadership and experience. Lebron's greatest asset is his individual production. Hard to say which one is more valuable though.

Sigh, let me quote my last post:

Now, you may not care about stats like these, but the players are pretty clearly in two different leagues by them, so again, it's pretty dang clear how some people would see the difference there as huge, and not something to be thrown aside because of a couple game's difference in team record.

To give even more context, I was responding to someone who claimed that it was unreasonable for anyone to claim that LeBron's stats were significantly better than Kobe's.

So anyway, main point here: You're not responding to my point.

I will respond to your post though in regards to Kobe's "leadership and intelligence". I think that it's pretty far from clear cut that anyone can make such claims. The coordination of his talented teammates could easily be credited primarily to Jackson since Jackson is a GOAT coach candidate for exactly those reasons. He also plays in a complex system whose down side is supposed to be that having smarter teammates won't help you very much - you've got to understand it yourself. And how is LeBron's leadership and intelligence lacking? LeBron's leadership skills are obvious, as is his BBIQ. Kobe's frankly the one whose BBIQ I'd question more because of his tendency to attempt difficult shots.

With all that said, I've got LeBron and Kobe neck and neck for the MVP at this point.

What a coincidence. http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/ ... olls_says/

[CzBoobie]

To me, Kobe is the MVP because he the most malleable of all the MVP candidates. If you need a post scorer, Kobe's got it; if you need a three point threat, Kobe's got it.; if you need a clutch play, Kobe's got it; if you need lock down defense, Kobe's got it; if you need a facilitator, Kobe's got it, if you need someone to carry the team, Kobe's got it. If you ask me who what player do I want to win one game, and I can have anybody in the league, give me Kobe. He's the most versatile, he's the most adaptable, more importantly he can do it all on a superstar level. I'm not saying that Lebron is not this (Nash is definitely not this), but Lebron can't do all of that. At least not right now he can't. His mid-range game isn't as good, his outside game isn't as good, his post game isn't even close, and he's nowhere near as adaptable to all situations as Kobe.

Kobe's the MVP right now.

What are you talking about? Because it sure as hell is not about this year's MVP. LeBron is scoring more efficiently from anywhere on the court but the free throw line and even there LeBron is steadily improving. Three-point threat? Someone shooting 27% doesn't look like three-point threat to me. LeBron is one of the best facilitators in the game, Kobe is averaging the least assists in 10 years. Clutch play? LeBron's eFG% in the clutch situations according to 82games.com is absurd 78.6%, Kobe's at 46.7%. So again, what exactly can't LeBron do?

[semi-sentient]

1) Nash - What he's done this year is phenomenal, but I don't think he'll keep it up, personally. Injuries will eventually factor in and as the Suns start playing better teams I think they will start to falter a bit. Maybe I'm wrong though. We'll see.

2) LeBron - I guess he's done more with less up to this point, otherwise I'd have him ranked behind Kobe. He's taking full advantage of Stern's gay rules this season as evidenced by how easily he can get to the rim (is anyone else getting sick of this?), but his outside shot has also looked impressive from what I've seen. Defensively, he's regressed.

3) Kobe - The Lakers have been dominant (especially since Gasol returned) with Kobe leading the way, but their schedule has been weak. Very weak. Still, he belongs in the top 3 due to team record and overall production -- on both ends.

The rest don't really matter. I think at seasons end these are the 3 players that will have a legit shot at an MVP award, so it's going to come down to who wins more games and who can stay healthy. My money is on Kobe at the moment as I think the Lakers will win considerably more games than the Cavs, with Nash and LeBron being a close 2nd/3rd if their current pace holds up.

PS: Kobe has averaged 6.4 assists since Gasol returned, for those busy worrying themselves that Kobe is having an down year in that department. He'll be well over 5 when it's all said and done, which is right where he should be.

[CHIMOCHI]

i guess same ol people crying up in this motha ****

gota give some love to old man nash

[Dat Pass]

2) LeBron - I guess he's done more with less up to this point

Ok, not trying to bash LeBron or anything. But I would love to hear a legit response to how people can still be using that argument that LeBron doesnt have help. They won 66 games last season, and added several solid role players. How are people still using this lame argument that LeBron is doing everything by himself? Im getting sick of hearing it. Werent the Cavs favored by many to win the East again because of the talent they added?

[semi-sentient]

2) LeBron - I guess he's done more with less up to this point

Ok, not trying to bash LeBron or anything. But I would love to hear a legit response to how people can still be using that argument that LeBron doesnt have help. They won 66 games last season, and added several solid role players. How are people still using this lame argument that LeBron is doing everything by himself? Im getting sick of hearing it. Werent the Cavs favored by many to win the East again because of the talent they added?

I didn't say that LeBron didn't have help. Of course he does. He just doesn't have as much as Kobe, at least not at this very moment. Early on they were dealing with the whole Delonte fiasco and I think that cost them a win or two as he's clearly a key piece for them (particularly defensively). They've had to integrate Shaq in as well. Still, even without Gasol the Lakers (minus Kobe) are better than the Cavs (minus LeBron). Simply put, LeBron has had to do more for the Cavs than Kobe has had to do for the Lakers, which is why I give him a slight edge at this point. It's hard to overlook the Lakers easy schedule as well, which is why their better record didn't put Kobe on top -- although at the end of the season I believe there will be enough separation to warrant Kobe ahead of LeBron.

[Bgil]

If you're gonna cal out the Lakers for an "easy" schedule then you'd have to do the same for the Suns.

[Dat Pass]

Still, even without Gasol the Lakers (minus Kobe) are better than the Cavs (minus LeBron).

Whoa, what?

The Lakers minus Kobe and Gasol:

Bynum / Mbenga
Odom / Josh Powell
Artest / Luke Walton
Vujacic / Brown
Fisher / Farmar

Not only would that be the worst back court in the league, it would be BY FAR the worst bench in the league. And can people please stop acting like Odom and Artest are All-Stars? Odom is a 9-9 player shooting barely, barely over 40%.. And Artest is a good ROLE player, but no more.

The Cavs minus LeBron:

Shaq / Big Z
Varejao / Jackson
Hickson / Moon
Parker / West
Mo / Gibson

Still a deep team with some decent talent. LeBrons supporting cast is criminally underrated.

[semi-sentient]

If you're gonna cal out the Lakers for an "easy" schedule then you'd have to do the same for the Suns.

The Suns have played 11 road games and we've played a total of 4. That's a huge difference, not to mention that the Suns have a slightly better record (although we crushed them, and will do so again this week).

[semi-sentient]

Whoa, what?

The Lakers minus Kobe and Gasol:

Bynum / Mbenga
Odom / Josh Powell
Artest / Luke Walton
Vujacic / Brown
Fisher / Farmar

Not only would that be the worst back court in the league, it would be BY FAR the worst bench in the league. And can people please stop acting like Odom and Artest are All-Stars? Odom is a 9-9 player shooting barely, barely over 40%.. And Artest is a good ROLE player, but no more.

The Cavs minus LeBron:

Shaq / Big Z
Varejao / Jackson
Hickson / Moon
Parker / West
Mo / Gibson

Still a deep team with some decent talent. LeBrons supporting cast is criminally underrated.

Underrated compared to who? Would you take Shaq/Varejao/Hickson over Bynum/Odom/Artest? Come on now. They do have an advantage on their bench though, but it's not big enough for me to take that cast over ours.

Also, Brown would be playing ahead of Vujacic, and quite frankly, I would take him over Parker.

Cavs have a huge advantage at PG though... not doubt about that.

I don't see what the big deal is. I'm not saying that Kobe's cast is great and that LeBron's sucks. I'm just saying that LeBron has had to do more with slightly less, and coupled with our super easy schedule I have to give him the nod at this early stage of the season.

[semi-sentient]

PS: Stop making me defend LeBron and the Cavs. I'm a Lakers fan for crying out loud.

[Dat Pass]

Underrated compared to who? Would you take Shaq/Varejao/Hickson over Bynum/Odom/Artest? Come on now. They do have an advantage on their bench though, but it's not big enough for me to take that cast over ours.

Also, Brown would be playing ahead of Vujacic, and quite frankly, I would take him over Parker.

Cavs have a huge advantage at PG though... not doubt about that.

I don't see what the big deal is. I'm not saying that Kobe's cast is great and that LeBron's sucks. I'm just saying that LeBron has had to do more with slightly less, and coupled with our super easy schedule I have to give him the nod at this early stage of the season.

Fair enough. I disagree to a certain extent, but I get your point.

[Paydro70]

bull. Jumaine Jones, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Derek Fisher, Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Trevor Ariza, Lamar Odom etc. all had their games shine next to Kobe. Even Caron shined next to Kobe during the last part of the season he was here (although you can chalk that up to sheer improvement of a lotto pick).

I didn't say he made his teammates worse... I said it's nonsense to suggest that he, more than another superstar, makes his teammates shine. Any good player does that automatically by attracting defensive attention, the same could be said for quite a few NBA players.

What is your basis for saying those players' games "shined" next to Kobe? Because their FG% was slightly higher? Brown, Fisher, Jones, Atkins, all had better or as good seasons elsewhere, Walton and Parker basically didn't play outside of LA, and Lamar Odom looked like a star before he went to play with Kobe. Butler, of course, became an All-star once he left. So what are we talking about? Chris Mihm, who enjoyed a 2 PER boost while playing in LA?

Players develop on their own curves, Kobe neither improved nor stymied their play by his magical basketball powers. He just took shots away, which left them with more open ones and fewer forced ones.

Lamar is a great example because he was a Laker in the Rudy T/Frank Hamblen days. Every season he's been a Laker (except this current season) he's shot better than his non-Laker days. In fact, his three seasons prior to being a Laker had him at 42%, 43% and 43% shooting. His first three Laker seasons: 47%, 48%, and 47%. Then during his first full year at starting PF he was at 52.5%.

Kwame Brown went from 46% pre-Lakers to 53% and 59% as a Laker.

Smush Parker... nuff said.

Raise your hand if you think Ronny Turiaf will hit 55% shooting ever again?
What about Brian Cook shooting 51% from the field?
Radman is a hell of shooter but he'll never hit those percentages again either.

Shannon Brown was in Cleveland less than a year before he joined the Lakers. Now he looks like the next Ariza... I told you guys three years ago that he was better than Farmar and people doubted me. No longer.

Speaking of Ariza... 38%. Artest 45%.

Of course playing with Kobe boosts FG%... but it's the same as the effect for any good team, where players are asked to do less because Kobe is shooting 20 times a game. That's the point... that Kobe doesn't have any special power to do this, any good team tends to "improve" the players around it because there it spreads the defensive attention.

Kevin Garnett shot two career highs with Boston instead of Minnesota! Paul Pierce for MVP!

[Cammo101]

On the 20 men shortlist for MVP Rankings 2.0 which will be made on Thursday are:

7 Eastern Conference Players
13 Western Conference Players

4 Centers
9 Forwards
7 Guards

1 Cavalier
1 Nugget
2 Lakers
1 Maverick
1 Thunder
1 Heat
2 Jazz
1 Spur
1 Magic
2 Bucks
2 Suns
1 Blazer
1 Celtic
2 Hawks
1 King

! Magic player, 2 Bucks and Jazz players = Fail

[RaisingArizona]

If you're gonna cal out the Lakers for an "easy" schedule then you'd have to do the same for the Suns.

Suns have the most road games and back to backs so far this season. Hardly an easy schedule.

[Dat Pass]

If you're gonna cal out the Lakers for an "easy" schedule then you'd have to do the same for the Suns.

Suns have the most road games and back to backs so far this season. Hardly an easy schedule.

They've played a total of 4 games agaisnt winning teams.

Both teams have had fairly easy schedules so far.