Would you trade Joe for Ray Allen/Kendrick Perkins?

azuresou1 · Post #1 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:53 pm

We'd probably need to add Zaza for salary purposes, but it'd give us three things we badly need: a big body down low, reliable outside shooting, and mostly importantly unselfish play.

killbuckner · Post #2 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:10 pm

Of course not.

raleigh · Post #3 » by **raleigh** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:26 pm

No, but I'd consider a similar trade to a WC team...

azuresou1 · Post #4 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:32 pm

Care to elaborate why you'd rather keep on a talented but extremely selfish player who has ALWAYS put himself and his personal glory over the needs of his team? Phoenix could have had a dynasty if he stayed. Instead, he wanted a bit more cash and the glory of being an undisputed #1. I honestly would not be surprised in the least if he ballhogged more because he doesn't want Josh overtaking him as the star player.

It's not like he's on the Kobe/Lebron/Wade tier either, where a team can be built around them. We are not a superstar-driven team. This entails being a team player, something that Joe, for all his nice fantasy statlines, does not provide. On the other hand, Boston brought in two stars to join Paul Pierce, and EVERYONE sacrificed to make the team far superior, Ray Allen the most. This is a player who went from averaging 26/5/4 to 17/4/3, because he knew that by sacrificing his individual glory, instead of being another Reggie Miller, he would have a ring and be remembered as part of a great Celtics team.

This also doesn't mention Kendrick Perkins, who is one of the most underrated players in the league, and would A) let us defend true Cs like Dwight with only 1 man B) give us a huge rebounding presence C) let us bring Marvin off the bench D) ensure that pretty much no one would ever want to drive into the paint on us.

killbuckner · Post #5 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:50 pm

I can't really believe you are serious. Joe Johnson is an allstar and the only guy on the Hawks thats top 5 at their position. Ray Allen is washed up and basically fills the same role as Bibby at this point. Perkins and Horford are pretty much the same player. If I decided to let Joe go and wanted to trade him (a perfectly reasonable choice) then I wouldn't be looking for role players to come back.

parson · Post #6 » by **parson** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:22 pm

The entire premise of this thread is that Joe devalues our team to the point we should take lesser players in a trade to get rid of him.

I can imagine trading Joe but not for the privilege of paying Ray Allen $4 million more for fewer points and greatly inferior defense. Add that Perkins is only marginally better than Zaza and the trade's not much better.

azuresou1 · Post #7 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:22 pm

killbuckner wrote:I can't really believe you are serious. Joe Johnson is an allstar and the only guy on the Hawks thats top 5 at their position. Ray Allen is washed up and basically fills the same role as Bibby at this point. Perkins and Horford are pretty much the same player. If I decided to let Joe go and wanted to trade him (a perfectly reasonable choice) then I wouldn't be looking for role players to come back.

Lol? Marbury was Top 5 at his position for a while too; look how well the Knicks did. Conversely, other than maybe Sheed, no one on that Detroit championship team was Top 5 at the position, and they seemed to do pretty damn well. Talent doesn't mean **** if you can't utilize it in a productive fashion.

Ray Allen is a more consistent, better shooting Bibby who can still play some defense and slash to the hole. That you think Perkins and Horford are even somewhat similar indicates to me that you have never watched Perkins play, which is baffling because we kinda had a 7 game playoffs series against them a few (read: two) years ago. Perkins is an enforcer who bangs in the paint; Horford is a PF playing out of position at the 5, which doesn't really let him bang against the bigger Cs, and isn't quite skilled enough to be a finesse 4.

Perkins - 6'10, 280 lb
Horford - 6'10, 245 lb

Neither is a role player. Ray is getting a bit old, but can still play - dude dropped 51 pts last year in the playoffs against the Bulls, with two game-tying 3's, and probably would have won the game if Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo were smart enough to feed the hot hand instead of going for the win in regulation and 3OT, respectively. Kendrick Perkins is 4th in block %, has a .636 TS, and has a DRTG of 97.

azuresou1 · Post #8 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:30 pm

parson wrote:The entire premise of this thread is that Joe devalues our team to the point we should take lesser players in a trade to get rid of him.

I can imagine trading Joe but not for the privilege of paying Ray Allen $4 million more for fewer points and greatly inferior defense. Add that Perkins is only marginally better than Zaza and the trade's not much better.

Ray Allen will get fewer points, but far more efficient points than Joe. Perkins is one of the best Cs in the league, partly a testament to how bad the overall pool of big men talent is, but also how skilled he is. To say he is only marginally better than Zaza is laughable.

08-09
Ray Allen: 18/4/3/1, 1.7 TO, .624 TS%, 122/106 RTG split
Joe Johnson: 21/4/6/1, 2.5 TO, .534 TS%, 110/110 RTG split

Following is per 36, seeing as Zaza's a backup
Kendrick Perkins: 15/10/2, 2.6 BLK, 3.2 TO, .636 TS%, 105/97 RTG split
Zaza Pachulia: 13/8/1, 1.4 BLK, 3.0 TO, .539 TS%, 102/106 RTG split

Jcrawford11 · Post #9 » by **Jcrawford11** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:34 pm

first and foremost KG n PP would not put up wit JOE the way he holds the ball.....and as far as the hawks go u cant play crawford and ray together because neither one of them can play the 3.......unless u bench bibby in crunch time and make jamal point guard........How about joe for bosh?

dpaulh · Post #10 » by **dpaulh** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:36 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if I saw this trade in the headlines... Maybe throw in our second for their first though to make it more even.

azuresou1 · Post #11 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:39 pm

Jcrawford11 wrote:first and foremost KG n PP would not put up wit JOE the way he holds the ball.....and as far as the hawks go u cant play crawford and ray together because neither one of them can play the 3.......unless u bench bibby in crunch time and make jamal point guard........How about joe for bosh?

I would actually be more concerned with the Celtics turning down this trade because, like I said, Joe doesn't make teams better (unless they're REALLY bad e.g. Hawks circa 2005). I'd do Joe for Bosh in a heartbeat but Toronto would laugh us off the phone.

Crunch time my lineup would depend on the team we're facing.

And yeah, I think a 2nd for a 1st toss in would be fair enough. Maybe add in RandMo as well for another 2nd.

parson · Post #12 » by **parson** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:44 pm

azuresou1 wrote:Ray Allen will get fewer points, but far more efficient points than Joe. Perkins is one of the best Cs in the league,

"far more efficient" you say? Allen is shooting 30% better overall but 15% WORSE on 3s. Don't we kinda need that from our SG?

As to the claim about Perkins being "one of the best Cs in the league," are you aware BOS only plays him 26.9* minutes per game? He's "one of the best" but he can't get onto the court?

And what's with you using last season's #s?

Again, your main premise is that Joe's selfishness DEVALUES him. If you're right, we'd be better either waiting or finding someone who didn't care (to trade with). To build a devalued appraisal into a trade involving him is for the team to shoot itself in the foot.

*Sorry. When I posted 25, it was from something I'd read earlier last week.

azuresou1 · Post #13 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:50 pm

parson wrote:
azuresou1 wrote:Ray Allen will get fewer points, but far more efficient points than Joe. Perkins is one of the best Cs in the league,

"far more efficient" you say? Allen is shooting 30% better overall but 15% WORSE on 3s. Don't we kinda need that from our SG?

As to the claim about Perkins being "one of the best Cs in the league," are you aware BOS only plays him 26.9* minutes per game? He's "one of the best" but he can't get onto the court?

And what's with you using last season's #s?

Again, your main premise is that Joe's selfishness DEVALUES him. If you're right, we'd be better either waiting or finding someone who didn't care (to trade with). To build a devalued appraisal into a trade involving him is for the team to shoot itself in the foot.

*Sorry. When I posted 25, it was from something I'd read earlier last week.

Ray Allen's in a bit of a slump. It happens. Do you really believe Joe is a better 3 point shooter than Ray Allen?

Perkins only plays 27 minutes a game because A) they don't need him to, since they're demolishing teams early B) Sheed demands time off the bench, which is really the bigger issue.

I used last season's numbers because we're only a 5th of the season in.

Joe is only going to be more and more selfish the longer he stays on this team, since he obviously wants the personal glory. Now, currently the media believes that he's a great teammate since he posts nice fantasy lines on a rising team (case in point: he was like 4th in last week's Race to MVP rankings at ESPN or something), but that's going to change the more people watch the Hawks. He is hurting the team... but most of the mainstream hasn't picked up on that yet, and we should HOPE the Celtics don't realize either and only remember Joe crossing up Eddie House from two years ago.

ATL DirtyBird · Post #14 » by **ATL DirtyBird** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:25 pm

On,ly reason we want this guy gone is that every night we see the oozing potential of this team and its severly effected by Joes overdribbling and poor shot choice. If he played team ball wed be one hell of a team.

Anyone think Joe will have a revalation like Josh did this summer? I would hope so. Hes a mature and I would think the staff notices what hes doing. yet in the back of mind I dont htink he will ever stop until he is out of here!

azuresou1 · Post #15 » by **azuresou1** » Tue Dec 1, 2009 2:48 pm

SneakerKing33 wrote:On,ly reason we want this guy gone is that every night we see the oozing potential of this team and its severly effected by Joes overdribbling and poor shot choice. If he played team ball wed be one hell of a team.

Anyone think Joe will have a revalation like Josh did this summer? I would hope so. Hes a mature and I would think the staff notices what hes doing. yet in the back of mind I dont htink he will ever stop until he is out of here!

Doubt it. I think if anything he's throwing a tantrum because he wants to be the undisputed 'star' of the team, and after all, Kobe never used to pass to his teammates either, right? Oh wait, Kobe had Smush Parker, Kwame, and Slava Medvedenko, while Joe has Josh Smith, Al Horford, and Mike Bibby.

Joe just wants his stats so that some team like New York or Minnesota will overpay him because he dropped 25/5/5 on them when they played twice this year, and they didn't care enough to watch his other games and see how he completely kills all ball movement.

azuresou1 · Post #16 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 6:41 pm

I posted this on a few other boards, and everyone said that I was ripping off the Celtics. I'm inclined to agree. How can people be on Joe's nuts?

Post #17 » by **dms269** » Thu Dec 3, 2009 11:12 pm

The reason they don't like it for the Celtics is because of Perkins. Their big men are not that great when you look at it. KG is a dominate force, when he his healthy, and he never is. I am not a fan of sheed's game, never will be. Perkins is really their only true post guy who can play most nights. Plus a team is likely going to have to max JJ to keep him, not something a team with a narrowing gap who has their own contract situation to worry about wants to do. But the Celtics are getting ripped off.

I don't think Joe just wants a big payday. I think he knows he can get paid wherever he goes, and he is already his teams main guy. We can offer him the most money so I doubt it is that. I think he wants a ring and wants to be paid. Maybe not the max if he can compete for a ring, but still a hefty price.

azuresou1 · Post #18 » by **azuresou1** » Fri Dec 4, 2009 4:08 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:The reason they don't like it for the Celtics is because of Perkins. Their big men are not that great when you look at it. KG is a dominate force, when he his healthy, and he never is. I am not a fan of sheed's game, never will be. Perkins is really their only true post guy who can play most nights. Plus a team is likely going to have to max JJ to keep him, not something a team with a narrowing gap who has their own contract situation to worry about wants to do. But the Celtics are getting ripped off.

I don't think Joe just wants a big payday. I think he knows he can get paid wherever he goes, and he is already his teams main guy. We can offer him the most money so I doubt it is that. I think he wants a ring and wants to be paid. Maybe not the max if he can compete for a ring, but still a hefty price.

Joe doesn't have a no-trade clause in his contract, I believe, so it's really only the Celtics we'd need to worry about.