Know what? F... all y'all. Caron Butler Appreciation Thread

[doclinkin]

No player has had to adjust his game for the new system more than Caron. And a man is allowed his pride, Caron's been trying to find a way to remain aggressive and score his points the best way he knows how, but there's an adjustment period between a coach and his players learning what they do well and trying to maximize where the opportunities are int eh system.

Caron is not a catch and shoot guy, that's not his skill set. He's best aggressively attacking the lane, bouncing off people and either finishing or collecting the free throw chance. That means however if he's fed too far out (wingside if the defense is in position or above the elbow extended) opponents have too much time to react, unless the defense has been spread and weighted to the opposite side of the floor. Some part of the adjustment is in the hands of other people: Coaching to find the seams and wrinkles where his strengths come to the fore; guards who find him in rhythm rolling to the basket at the right time. This is a guard-heavy offense, Caron is coming from a wing-forward offense.

Last night took advantage of Caron's strengths early on, his aggression kept the Bucks on their heels and Caron was able to shed defenders even feeding Haywood. Ten free throws, nasty dunks, chances to pass to teammates when his attack was overplayed. That's the Caron we know and love. There are opportunities available for him in this offense with a few slight tweaks.

But what has been under his control is defensive effort, and Caron is putting in the work at that end. His slimmer profile means he's a bit quicker on his feet. His team D is solid, and he's started to learn when and how he can intercept the opponent passes without gambling outside the scheme. Small Forwards haven't been killing the team, in general they've been playing below their averages with Caron checking them.

Dude has had an adjustment period with each new coach and system, in part because he takes it seriously and wants to be a glue guy, occasionally tries to do too much and show what he's capable of to the incoming honcho before he has found his opportunities in the system. But he's a cunning and savvy player who works his tail off, better believe if there's a role for him he'll find it. And as soon as Gilbert finds a comfort zone Caron will look that much better.

Fickle fans, reconsider your gripes. Here Tough Juice gets his props.

[Ruzious]

I don't buy the excuses for his lack of offensive game. He simply hasn't played smartly - and those problems started last season. I don't believe the offensive system tells him not to pass. He used to be a terrific and willing passer. Now, he's a black hole, and that started last season. If Caron wants to return to all-star quality or close to it, all he's gotta do is play smarter.

[DaRealHibachi]

It's games like last nights game that piss me off with this dude, simply b/c we all know what CB can do... He's a slashing SF, above average wing defender with great passing ability... If he doesn't use those skills in which he excels, and tries to do more than he can do, he will suck (as seen in most games this season)...

On our team he is the perfect third option and glue guy, b/c his skillset is pretty big... If he can keep that in mind, he'll play the exact same game he had yesterday every night... Great passing, great D, aggressive when needed, no contested jumpers...

As long as he continues to play as he should, (4apg, slashing SF) I'll jump back on the bandwagon... He most def gets props for yesterdays game, hope he keeps it up...

[ZonkertheBrainless]

No curmudgeoning allowed! Yay Tuff Juice, we have faith in you man!

[nate33]

But what has been under his control is defensive effort, and Caron is putting in the work at that end. His slimmer profile means he's a bit quicker on his feet. His team D is solid, and he's started to learn when and how he can intercept the opponent passes without gambling outside the scheme. Small Forwards haven't been killing the team, in general they've been playing below their averages with Caron checking them.

Not just below average. Butler has been completely shutting down his opposition. As of 11/27, his counterpart PER is an unreal 9.4 (and Turkaglu and Delfino were invisible in the last two games so I expect that number to remain absurdly low).

I don't buy all this talk about Butler being unnecessary and that if Miller replaces him, we'd be better. People just aren't crediting Butler enough for his defense.

I'm open to a Butler trade because he isn't a great fit offensively, but I'm only trading him under the pretense that Butler is still a damn good ball player who is worth a damn good ball player in return. I'm not feeling all this talk about trading him for Wilson freaking Chandler and cap relief. Give me Iguodala, or G.Wallace, or Deng, or Marvin Williams and maybe we can talk.

[Ruzious]

But what has been under his control is defensive effort, and Caron is putting in the work at that end. His slimmer profile means he's a bit quicker on his feet. His team D is solid, and he's started to learn when and how he can intercept the opponent passes without gambling outside the scheme. Small Forwards haven't been killing the team, in general they've been playing below their averages with Caron checking them.

Not just below average. Butler has been completely shutting down his opposition. As of 11/27, his counterpart PER is an unreal 9.4 (and Turkaglu and Delfino were invisible in the last two games so I expect that number to remain absurdly low).

I don't buy all this talk about Butler being unnecessary and that if Miller replaces him, we'd be better. People just aren't crediting Butler enough for his defense.

I'm open to a Butler trade because he isn't a great fit offensively, but I'm only trading him under the pretense that Butler is still a damn good ball player who is worth a damn good ball player in return. I'm not feeling all this talk about trading him for Wilson freaking Chandler and cap relief. Give me Iguodala, or G.Wallace, or Deng, or Marvin Williams and maybe we can talk.

Agreed - but I'd go further and say no to Deng and MWilliams. Deng offers no 3 point shooting threat, and Williams gives nothing more than Mike Miller does - without the passing and ball-handling skills - with the same size and just marginally better athleticism.

[nate33]

Marvin Williams is an excellent defender and he is only 23.

I agree about Deng. He isn't my top choice either. At the very least, Chicago would have to absorb Stevenson in the trade. One thing Deng can do is catch-and-shoot from midrange. His game is actually a lot like Jamison's, only with better D and less rebounding.

[DCZards]

Yeah, CB has struggled offensively this season....and a good part of last season too. And he can be a frustrating black hole at times. But, aside from the offensive fouls, he seems to be coming around. I like the way CB has played the last couple of games...even making better and smarter passes.

And, let's face it, this (soft) team needs a "Tough Juice." Believe me, opponents know that there's at least one Wizard they ain't f****ing with.

[Ruzious]

Marvin Williams is an excellent defender and he is only 23.

I agree about Deng. He isn't my top choice either. At the very least, Chicago would have to absorb Stevenson in the trade. One thing Deng can do is catch-and-shoot from midrange. His game is actually a lot like Jamison's, only with better D and less rebounding.

Until this season (small sample size for this season), Williams has always had a less than average defensive +/- for Atlanta. I've always considered him a tweener in the negative sense. He's stiff at the 3 (though with a very good jump shot and great size) with very few perimeter skills other than shooting - and not quite big and tough enough at the 4. He's probably worth his contract, but perhaps violates Dat's rule - Do you really want to commit 7.5 mil a year for the next 4 seasons to a decent player? I've just always felt he was overrated - especially at UNC - he did well there, but he was in the absolute best possible situation.

[nate33]

Marvin Williams is an excellent defender and he is only 23.

I agree about Deng. He isn't my top choice either. At the very least, Chicago would have to absorb Stevenson in the trade. One thing Deng can do is catch-and-shoot from midrange. His game is actually a lot like Jamison's, only with better D and less rebounding.

Until this season (small sample size for this season), Williams has always had a less than average defensive +/- for Atlanta. I've always considered him a tweener in the negative sense. He's stiff at the 3 (though with a very good jump shot and great size) with very few perimeter skills other than shooting - and not quite big and tough enough at the 4. He's probably worth his contract, but perhaps violates Dat's rule - Do you really want to commit 7.5 mil a year for the next 4 seasons to a decent player? I've just always felt he was overrated - especially at UNC - he did well there, but he was in the absolute best possible situation.

I can't argue with those numbers. You are right, to the extend that the numbers quantify defense, M.Williams seems pretty average. His on/off differentials are inconclusive and his counterpart PER is in the 16-17 range.

Maybe I need to rethink that one. I thought Williams had a pretty good rep as a an up-and-coming wing defender, but maybe that's just the "Deshawn Stevenson Syndrome". When you don't do much offensively, people just assume you're a good defender. I'll have to watch him more closely in the future and get a better feel for his defense against non-Wizards.

[montestewart]

This year has been the defensive Butler most of us thought he could be and were constantly frustrated when he would merely show flashes of it here and there but never quite maintain the focus. I recall times when I'd think Butler's a good defender, then go back on that a game later when he'd look like a screen door on a submarine.

I recall also Jordan's "protect the paint" emphasis and wondering why he would waste the opportunity to to utilize Butler, Stevenson, and even Daniels, maybe not the most talented defenders as a group, but all willing and often able to find their spots, harass shooters at the perimeter and/or cut off driving lanes. With Haywood backing them up, the Wizards could have had a halfway decent defense (but see Philadelphia 09-10).

Maybe I didn't like a few of Butler's shots last night, but overall, I liked his game a lot, and I hope he keeps it up. Maybe one of the best things Saunders' system is doing is actually assigning defensive responsibility, recognizing and rewarding a players' defensive effort, and making Butler a consistent and reliable defender. That aspect of his game should enhance his value, to the Wizards (especially if he finds his former offense) or in a trade.

[doclinkin]

I don't buy the excuses for his lack of offensive game. He simply hasn't played smartly - and those problems started last season. I don't believe the offensive system tells him not to pass. He used to be a terrific and willing passer. Now, he's a black hole, and that started last season. If Caron wants to return to all-star quality or close to it, all he's gotta do is play smarter.

The "Caron = Black Hole Since Last Year" garbage is one of those errant memes that has entered into the echochamber of mob thought. Allow me to kick it in the colon.

Fact is, checking last year Caron's usage rate remained equivalent with his previous year. You can check it yourself: stats per 40, efficiency stats, usage stats all remained basically steady. His 3pt% dropped off since he was guarded tighter, but his Free Throws per possession increased, keeping his scoring percents about the same. And assists per possession dropped off by an inconsequential few hundredths, the ast/TO ratio took a hit-- but consider to whom he was passing, nobody was making shots last year.

This year Caron's passing numbers have taken a huge hit, that's very true. Learning a new system, playing primarily off the ball, he's catching flack for not shooting quickly enough, but also hearing how he doesn't pass? It's an awkward fit. As a passer Caron has often been a player who caught the ball, assessed the defense, began his move, then kicked to the better option once the defense adjusted. His rumbling rugged style of attacking in traffic has often led to offensive turnovers unless matched up against the bigger player, in which case the opponent gets the foul and he picks up the and1. That's his game.

Now however instead of playing as point forward attacking from the wing/baseline he's supposed to play in part as a guard: the catch and let fly game of taking the open shot as soon as the primary guard decides you are open. And he's catching the ball _just_ outside his range of comfort, which has always been 2 dribbles to the basket, 3 at most. This is the domain of quickfooted guards, they can react to his move and slide in front of him to cut off the attack, unless you can catch him in motion and lead him with the pass. Catch him on the inside of the curl not when he breaks open for the catch and shoot. Play him to catch and roll, not to stop and pop. But in this system that's up to the decision-making skills of the guards. And as of right now only one guard is comfortable making decisions in the system: Mighty Earl.

But consider that everytime Caron switched to a new team his assist ratio takes a hit, then marches steadily up in improvement. Caron learns the system, learns his teammates then adjusts his game. Yes he needs the ball in his hands to play the game he knows best, can't rack assists if you don't have the ball for nothin but a narrow second. And yes, he does best when the Bigs and wing players can leave open creases for his dribble-drive aggression (ala the EJ system) but you can't kill the guy for the same thing you used to praise in him. The Caron we love was the guy unafraid to take the ball to the teeth of the defense and manage to gut out the And-1 bouncing off a late-adjusting Big. Courageous and fierce. Difference is now the bigs are already in position, and the lanes aren't there. His options, fewer. Often 'jack a quick shot' is the only option, and that's just not his best game.

But he's adjusting to the sets, trying to find out where he's allowed to attack and be aggro with the ball, he's working hard to make a difference where he can. Defense in particular has been where he's been asked to pour his energies, knowing that he's otherwise not the coach's favorite type of player. IN that respect, he's putting in significant effort.

Flip's system loves the open jumper. (Unless it's by his attacking PG). Caron by nature likes to operate in traffic and attack the iron. I submit that the team needs both kinds of players. Flip's teams are noted for postseason flameouts in part because they run a finesse system without interior scoring. If the timing is off and the jumpers aren't falling, they have nowhere to turn. Haywood is raising his game, but it would be nice to earn a few extra trips to the FT line elsewhere. But it's tough to kill Caron for that when he's attempting fewer FG attempts than anytime since he played next to Kobe at his ballhog worst. In this system he can't raise his game to carry the load, since he doesn't get a load of attempts, nor anywhere near where he works best. And that is the responsibility of the PG and the strategist directing the attack.

Not laying blame, I'm saying to be most successful the team will/ought to adjust and find a role for him, recognizing his strengths. The Milwaukee game perhaps showed a glimpse of that in the first half.

[nate33]

The "Caron = Black Hole Since Last Year" garbage is one of those errant memes that has entered into the echochamber of mob thought. Allow me to kick it in the colon.

Fact is, checking last year Caron's usage rate remained equivalent with his previous year. You can check it yourself: stats per 40, efficiency stats, usage stats all remained basically steady. His 3pt% dropped off since he was guarded tighter, but his Free Throws per possession increased, keeping his scoring percents about the same. And assists per possession dropped off by an inconsequential few hundredths, the ast/TO ratio took a hit-- but consider to whom he was passing, nobody was making shots last year.

Thanks, doc. I never understood the anti-Butler bias last season either. Perhaps he loafed a bit more on D than in years prior, but his offense was just as good (minus the 3-pointers).

If somebody wants to bash Butler for his offense this season, go ahead. Butler's offense is clearly way down for many of the reasons doc described. But please let's not bash his effort. He is playing the best D of his career and is crashing the boards as hard as ever.

[dobrojim]

my main issue with Butler this year has been that he's been
TO prone (anecdotally).

I am impressed by the D numbers posted. He'll be test
there again tonight (as most nights) by a guy who used
to, as recently as last year, eat us and him up.

I assumed his shooting would return to form as it appears
for the moment to have done. Having AJ back helps him
(and everyone else) I would think.

He'll be fine. I think I'll wear my Butler AllStar jersey tonight!

[W. Unseld]

Best...title thread....ever.

[tkunit]

I will appreciate what he nets us in return when we trade him!

[JWizmentality]

F**K Caron. F**k his 3pt shooting, pump faking, lazy jab step, mountain dew withdrawal ass!!!!

[P'Oed]

this whole thread is one big pump fake

[fishercob]

Poor form, Wizfans. There's a thread for Caron hate. This ain't it. I'm pretty unhappy with the guy right now too, but let Doc have his thread and go post your pissiness in the AmazSuckCB....

[doclinkin]

Poor form, Wizfans. There's a thread for Caron hate. This ain't it. I'm pretty unhappy with the guy right now too, but let Doc have his thread and go post your pissiness in the AmazSuckCB....

Nope, it's good, bring it, I changed the first post.

F**K Caron. F**k his 3pt shooting, pump faking, lazy jab step, mountain dew withdrawal ass!!!!

Three point shooting? Dude made a grand total 3 attempts from 3 this raptors game. Hit one. That's a better percent than most of the Wiz players (excpet Gil got on track, a good sign). Better than Tawn's 1-7 by a long stripe. But lazy jab step? Caron went 7-for-7 from the free throw line. More than any other player on the squad, except Brendan who can't hit a mountain with a sniper rifle right now. And 5 dimes, zero turnovers. Who's our PG out there? Caron and his 5/0 ast/to -- or Gil at 3/1 -- or Earl at 5/4?

The hate is misdirected. The hell you pissed about? Cause Hedo got free? Dude took 9 three pointers and missed 6, he just got right at a critical time. He's not gonna be choked off forever. Nope Caron is not your scapegoat this game. He had to play 45 mins because Jamison pulled 5 fouls and missed 12 of 16 shots --AND-- 2/3rds of his critical free throws at a key point.

BY all means post your wrongheaded pantswetting here, I'll happily spike it like badminton.