Back Up PG is our most glaring weakness

Red2 · Post #1 » by **Red2** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 1:47 pm

It's become obvious ( to me at least) that the biggest hole we have is the backup PG position. WHen rondo goes out our ball movement stops and our offense and defense come unglued. Neither Eddie nor Paul nor Marquis are point guards and you can add Ray allen and tony allen to that list as well. The only one on our roster who has potential pg skills is Lester Hudson and he's not getting any PT. SO far we've gotten away with it but God help us if Rondo gets hurt. With Glen coming back we appear to be well stocked as far as big men go. I'd love to see Danny do a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 where we get back a serviceable player and open up a roster spot for a veteran PG.

GuyClinch · Post #2 » by **GuyClinch** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 1:52 pm

This has come up before - and I don't agree.

1) We probably won't win if Rondo gets knocked out for the season. So why spend "depth" on guys who won't play?

2) Why do you assume Ainge thinks Hudson can't spell Rondo (for a more minor injury) - just because he isn't playing now. Maybe its just a matter of Doc thinking the second unit doesnt need a tiny backcourt (House and Hudson).

3) It won't be "god" that helps us - but some PG from the D league. And that guy would likely back up Hudson/House anyway..

Pete

Hemingway · Post #3 » by **Hemingway** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:27 pm

GuyClinch wrote:This has come up before - and I don't agree.

1) We probably won't win if Rondo gets knocked out for the season. So why spend "depth" on guys who won't play?

We'd still have 4 former allstars and a pretty good center. We might no longer be a favorite to win but we'd still certainly be good enough to pay someone a mil or two to play point for us.

GuyClinch wrote:This has come up before - and I don't agree.

2) Why do you assume Ainge thinks Hudson can't spell Rondo (for a more minor injury) - just because he isn't playing now. Maybe its just a matter of Doc thinking the second unit doesnt need a tiny backcourt (House and Hudson).

Its just that historically late picks that start out not playing dont wind up helping in the playoffs. You'd be hard pressed to find even a few examples.

We probably will pick someone up. We are doing ok with Eddie but it is less than ideal.

captain green · Post #4 » by **captain green** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 7:19 pm

It is our weakness but it has been covered up nicely,. I've watched every game this season and when Rondo isn't in the ball movement drops off but the scoring hasn't stopped the d has gotten worse but the offense has stayed the same for the most part.
I tend to think there is no one out there free agent wise that would fix this, so a trade maybe, I also think Danny will just roll with what he has too. Rondo is playing 33.3 minutes giving the combo of eddie/daniels/pierce/allen/hudson 14.7 minutes to play with usually during late 2nd late 3rd and early 4th quarter playing time and Rondo stays out of foul trouble most of the time.
If he go's down for an injury yes we will sign someone prolly daniels or activate lue.
Thats my take.

Celts17Pride · Post #5 » by **Celts17Pride** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 7:44 pm

The Celtics DO have a weakness in the backup PG position. Teams that play two PGs or have a really quick backup like BobCats (Augustine) give the Celtics trouble because Eddie House has trouble staying with his man. That said, Eddie House and Marquis Daniels have done a more than adequate job filling in that position.

I wouldn't do anything unless it's a quality long term solution like Ramon Sessions, Andre Miller etc. I wouldn't waste my time with Tyrone Lue, Anthony Carter, Antonio Daniels etc. It's a weakness but it's not fatal IMO.

GreenDreamer · Post #6 » by **GreenDreamer** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 7:51 pm

captain green wrote:It is our weakness but it has been covered up nicely,. I've watched every game this season and when Rondo isn't in the ball movement drops off but the scoring hasn't stopped the d has gotten worse but the offense has stayed the same for the most part.
I tend to think there is no one out there free agent wise that would fix this, so a trade maybe, I also think Danny will just roll with what he has too. Rondo is playing 33.3 minutes giving the combo of eddie/daniels/pierce/allen/hudson 14.7 minutes to play with usually during late 2nd late 3rd and early 4th quarter playing time and Rondo stays out of foul trouble most of the time.
If he go's down for an injury yes we will sign someone prolly daniels or activate lue.
Thats my take.

The really sad part about this is that Rondo isn't usally allowed to play with the second unit. I actually got a kick out of yesterday's game when Rondo gets pulled with 3:47 to go in the 1st, and Mike and Donny automatically figure that Doc is going to play him with the second unit. No, evidently Doc thought that things were going too well out there, and he had to make it interesting. Kept Rondo out until the 7:30 mark of the 2nd purely for the hell of it. Did that help us? Nahhhh. I get a kick out of Doc. We need to keep Ray and Paul fresh, and he's monitoring Rajon's "minutes."

The problem you are going to have with just about any point guard you bring in here, is that he's not going to be anywhere near as good as Rondo. Hell, Cassell wasn't as good as Rondo, and that was THAT Rondo, not the present one. It isn't easy doing what Rajon does, and this system is not point guard friendly.

If I had it my way, we'd try and lift Sessions off of the Wolves. He'd bring us a lot on continuity of of the bench.

Hemingway · Post #7 » by **Hemingway** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 9:13 pm

As long as Rondo doesn't get hurt we will be fine. I think we will look to at least add a vet for insurance. I am pretty sure danny will do something but right now we might as well see what we got in the kids and possible showcase Baby and Tony for possible trades.

SichtingLives · Post #8 » by **SichtingLives** » Wed Dec 2, 2009 11:51 pm

Folks have been clamoring over a BU PG for 3 years now and so far it has been nothing but fools gold. Of course by all means if you can get a guy like Sessions you do, but I seriously doubt we can pick up a better fit than Eddie. It's not like there are career 40 % 3 point shooters growing on trees (or NBA benches, as it is). So he's slow and mostly one dimensional, whoever else we stick in there will have their own shortcomings as well.

I'm fine with what we have. The lack of a true BU PG will not make or break this team in any way.

celticfan42487 · Post #9 » by **celticfan42487** » Thu Dec 3, 2009 12:16 am

I don't think it's a "glaring" weakness with Daniels on this team.

But we have Tryonne Lue learning all the plays and being with the team every day for insurance. It's as close to cheating as you can get.

GuyClinch · Post #10 » by **GuyClinch** » Thu Dec 3, 2009 6:15 am

I think unless we bring in a guy who is BETTER then House (in the eyes of Doc) it's just not worth griping about. Sure House isn't a super athlete - and such. His ball handling is weak. His defense isn't incredible. But his lights out shooting makes up for that..

I kinda like House. He is a one trick wonder - but what a trick.

Post #11 » by **sunshinekids99** » Thu Dec 3, 2009 10:55 am

What about someone like Rafer Alston or Keyon Dooling from the Nets? Salaries would matchup pretty easily. Maybe the Nets would want to lose the year on the Dooling contract so they would have a bit more money this offseason.

As for Alston I know he's playing like crap at the moment, but with a better cast around him I think he could be pretty good.

Post #12 » by **sully00** » Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:18 pm

GreenDreamer wrote:The really sad part about this is that Rondo isn't usally allowed to play with the second unit. I actually got a kick out of yesterday's game when Rondo gets pulled with 3:47 to go in the 1st, and Mike and Donny automatically figure that Doc is going to play him with the second unit. No, evidently Doc thought that things were going too well out there, and he had to make it interesting. Kept Rondo out until the 7:30 mark of the 2nd purely for the hell of it. Did that help us? Nahhhh. I get a kick out of Doc. We need to keep Ray and Paul fresh, and he's monitoring Rajon's "minutes."

But Rondo doesn't solve the problem with that unit. I think Glen Davis might. The problem is that it is a unit built on two 3 point shooters, with a slashing two guard and a banger with either Paul or Ray. What is happening is that teams are looking to force Boston to beat them from the outside and hang all over Ray and Pierce. If Eddie and Sheed struggle we pretty much are screwed. Obviously Rondo would make the offense more dynamic but assuming we are swapping him for Ray or Paul teams are simply going to lock down even more on penetration and get out on Eddie and Sheed and force Rondo and Daniels to beat them from the outside.

Scoring off the bench is one of the most difficult things to do in the NBA, there really isn't anything else like it in pro sports. Eddie and Marquis are pretty damn good at it. Both would probably be better with a PG but not in exchange for more defensive attention.

This is why teams put up with a guy like Flip Murray, everyone cringes at his FG% but he is coming off the bench and taking the ball into the teeth of the defense and doesn't get a chance to play through it. AI's skill set wise would be great at this but he needs to be in the flow of the game to be effective. Rafer Alston is an interesting idea he is not nearly as productive off the bench as a starter but he might be enough to keep defenses honest and he can at least knock down open 3's.

Lester Hudson could be this guy and my guess is they want him to get a chance, that is why he isn't in Maine right now. But is Doc ever going to trust a rookie in the postseason?

I still like House and Daniels, obviously we can't have Eddie, Sheed, and Ray all struggling from the outside and it be effective. The seem to be looking for ways to get Sheed some good looks closer to the hoop. I expect with Davis in there instead of Shelden you are going to get a more dynamic offense as Davis is going to demand defensive attention and is a skilled passer so you will have 5 skilled ball handlers on the floor and that should cover up for the lack of one primary guy.

Rafer would provide some Rondo insurance, which we don't have, but I don't know that he brings anymore to the table off the bench then the teams current "assistant coach." This team can waive there most useless expiring player after the trade deadline and activate Lue for a ball handling 3pt shooting boost off the bench down the stretch and into the postseason. Unlike the Marbury or Cassell situations, Lue is a bench player, will have fresh legs, and will have been here all season.

sam_I_am · Post #13 » by **sam_I_am** » Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:46 pm

I disagree with title of post. Back up PG is not a strength but Eddie House can play there for 6-8 minutes and Rondo can handle the rest.

The real glaring weakness on the roster is a SF/SG who can defend the best swingmen in the game like Kobe, Lebron, Carmelo, Vince Carter etc. Ray Allen and Pierce hold their own but I don't see Marquis Daniels being the answer for any of those guys the way Posey was.

Can Tony Allen be that guy this year? Maybe.

With Paul Pierce needing to be vintage truth and provide serious offensive production to make up for slide in KG and Ray's offense..... I think we cannot depend on him to be the main defender of our serious competiti

Post #14 » by **sully00** » Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:34 am

I think Daniels is much better man to man defender than Posey ever was. Not the rebounder or 3 pt shooter but I think he is a better man defender than TA.

Red2 · Post #15 » by **Red2** » Sat Dec 5, 2009 1:03 pm

have you guys actually been watching the games? take last night for instance. Without rondo the second unit struggles to do anything. I have not been impressed with marquis or eddie at the point. Lester hudson got some burn last night and he was horrible as was giddens. the second unit is not playing well and the main reason is that there is no pg coming off the bench.

DumbyTheWizard · Post #16 » by **DumbyTheWizard** » Sat Dec 5, 2009 5:47 pm

We need a big PG/combo guard who can guard SG, and then he could play next to House. Someone like Flip Murrey would have been nice if we signed him in the summer but he wanted more then the min.

GuyClinch · Post #17 » by **GuyClinch** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 1:10 am

have you guys actually been watching the games? take last night for instance. Without rondo the second unit struggles to do anything. I have not been impressed with marquis or eddie at the point. Lester hudson got some burn last night and he was horrible as was giddens. the second unit is not playing well and the main reason is that there is no pg coming off the bench.

This is a bit unfair - is the second unit that good WITH Rondo?

The Rondo/Williams/R.Allen/Wallace/Daniels lineup is pretty bad. (-10) 3 and 5. So are any of the Rondo+Bench guys lineups.

Rondo is getting too much credit because the guys that finish in the starting lineup are excellent. For example in last nights game Paul Pierce made an excellent pass to R. Wallace near the basket. But R. Wallace couldn't jump well enough and couldn't finish the play. KG would have easily converted that.

Right now the ONLY good units we have on the court is the starting 5 and the House/R.Allen one which isn't being used that much anymore. So let's not imagine that Rondo is some cure all. Those lineups are last talented - and no matter who creates they suffer.

Now if we were to get a player BETTER then House - the lineup of course would improve and I have no issue with that. But thinking that any old playmaker will make a lineup of backups a powerhouse is wrong. Look for our bench lineups to improve when BBD returns - not because of any new playmaker but because he will add more talent out there (offensively) then S. Williams has. Although BBD is a better playmaker then S. Williams so that helps too.

Pete