If we were to get lucky

Train7492 · Post #1 » by **Train7492** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 3:02 pm

If for some reason the Pacer fans would get lucky, who would you hire as the coach. I really know this will not happen but our coach needs fired. I just wanted to see who everyone had on there mind. I'm kind of in the middle of Byron Scott or giving Mark Jackson a chance. Jackson would be the kind of coach that you would be responsible for your play. (so Ford would never see the floor, to many TO's)

Post #2 » by **Miller4ever** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 4:27 pm

At this point I'd hire Mark Jackson and Byron Scott to let them START at PG.

writerman · Post #3 » by **writerman** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 4:29 pm

Train7492 wrote:If for some reason the Pacer fans would get lucky, who would you hire as the coach. I really know this will not happen but our coach needs fired. I just wanted to see who everyone had on there mind. I'm kind of in the middle of Byron Scott or giving Mark Jackson a chance. Jackson would be the kind of coach that you would be responsible for your play. (so Ford would never see the floor, to many TO's)

I'm kind of surprised no-one responded to my suggestion of Bill Laimbeer. I've always hated him, but he would give this Pacer team a lot of the attitude it badly needs, and could teach our young bigs a lot about the nuances of the game. He's an assistant with the Wolves now, but I wonder if he wouldn't jump at the chance to be a head coach for a team with some talented young players.

I don't know what Ford's problem is, but he's really degenerated from the player I saw up north.

What in heaven's name has happened to the offense? We're making every team we play look like the Russell Celtics with Big Bill in his prime!

Obie needs to go.

plustin · Post #4 » by **plustin** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 5:07 pm

I would go with Laimbeer. I like Scott and think Jackson is a solid selection as well, but Laimbeer would add a toughness this team is missing.

None of them could be worse than what they have now.

Edit to add that the granger injury may actually save O'brien. Now he can use that injury as an excuse for the teams upcoming losses.

Dcbaseballer52 · Post #5 » by **Dcbaseballer52** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 5:41 pm

Larry Bird needs to take over this team that he assembled and so when we continue to lose it will be clear that he does not have what it takes to be an NBA exec. All he is wanting to do is validate his own career by building a team around white jump shooters that remind him of himself. This style does not work in this league. Steve Nash has been the sparkplug for the leagues best up-tempo attack ever since he has been in Phoenix... and how many titles have they won? Look at the list of champions ever since the Bulls era.

1999- San Antonio Spurs (Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott, Mario Ellie, Tim Duncan, David Robinson)
2000- Los Angeles Lakers (Ron Harper, Kobe Bryant, Glen Rice, Robert Horry, Shaquille O'neal)
2001- Los Angeles Lakers (Ron Harper, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Shaquille O'neal)
2002- Los Angeles Lakers ( Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Shaquille O'neal)
2003- San Antonio Spurs (Tony Parker, Stephen Jackson, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, David Robinson)
2004- Det. Pistons (Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace)
2005- San Antonio Spurs (Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, Rasho Nesterovic)
2006- Miami Heat (Jason Williams, Dwyane Wade, Antoine Walker, Udonis Haslem, Shaquille O'neal)
2007- San Antonio Spurs (Tony Parker, Michael Finley, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, Fabricio Oberto)
2008- Boston Celtics (Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kendrick Perkins)
2009- Los Angeles Lakers (Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Trevor Ariza, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum)

Almost every single one of these teams has an elite guard and a dominate big man. The one obvious exception to a team-wide effort is the 04 Pistons... but even they were a team built on DEFENSE.

Simply put... right now it seems that our ultimate goal is to make it back to the playoffs. If that is our ultimate goal we are wasting our time. The goal should be to win a championship. We do not have the players or even a core of players needed to tin a championship. Danny Granger is a #2 option on a championship caliber team. We need a top-tier superstar to take us to the next level. Someone that is no doubt one of the top 15-20 players in the league. We should know by now that the Pacers will never get a player such as this through free agency.

1. Our cap situation is always a mess.
2. Players prefer warmer cities
3. Players prefer larger markets
4. Players prefer historical championship teams.

This leaves us with 2 routes. Either

A. We get lucky and a disgruntled superstar demands a trade and ultimately ends up in Indiana or
B. The most likely option.... we build through the draft.

now sometimes teams get lucky and get stars late in the draft.... but is is a much higher percentage to get a franchise players if you get a top 10 or top 5 pick. The Pacers have not had such a pick in a very long time because we lose a lot but we refuse to lose enough. The current tradition of getting a pick between 11 and 17 will NOT help us build a championship team. It would be much better to start losing the rest of our games NOW.

Dunthreevy · Post #6 » by **Dunthreevy** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 8:39 pm

If we were lucky we'd get the #1 pick in the draft and take John Wall, Jim O'Brien would be fired, and someone on our team would step up and be a leader.

Post #7 » by **Miller4ever** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 9:18 pm

If we get lucky Santa Claus will give us defense for Christmas.

And for anyone who thinks tanking is a good idea, you can kiss the Indiana Pacers goodbye. A horrific losing season will make the franchise a prime target for relocation, and the team will lose so much money from **** ticket sales.

Dcbaseballer52 · Post #8 » by **Dcbaseballer52** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 9:40 pm

We already are an unprofitable team because we already have a team that people don't care to pay to see play. I guess we could just stay the course though... keep getting the 13th draft pick each year and hope we stumble upon a star. Wait that won't happen cuz Bird takes experienced players who we know have no significant upside.

Dcbaseballer52 · Post #9 » by **Dcbaseballer52** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 9:41 pm

That is also why it is a good idea to rebuild the second you realize your championship window is over instead of Donnie Walsh's idiotic ""restoration" project. By the way, how are the Knicks shaping up?

Post #10 » by **Miller4ever** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 9:49 pm

Roy Hibbert's going to be alright.

Granger's alright.

Jury's still out on Hansbrough but he looks like he could be a solid 12-7 man in this league.

You have to realize that if we tank we lose a significant amount of fans that no awesome draft pick is going to recover. Look at the Clippers. They got Blake Griffin, but season ticket sales didn't rise significantly at all. Of course he's hurt, but it's not like previous #1 draft picks have all been winners.

Reginald Wayne · Post #11 » by **Reginald Wayne** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 10:23 pm

Miller4ever wrote:At this point I'd hire Mark Jackson and Byron Scott to let them START at PG.

This was awesome.

Anyway, I like the idea of having Laimbeer or Bird coach the team. Preferably Laimbeer because I'd imagine that he would get on a players ass for playing like an idiot (Ford would be benched).

Also, we'd be very lucky to land a superstar. I can't imagine seeing a big name signing with Indiana. I just don't see it. The only way we can get a superstar is to develop one through the draft, as mentioned before. Or, we can trade for a decent player who would eventually improve to superstar status (If we were lucky).

About tanking the year: Dumb idea. I know that I would not watch Pacer basketball if they tanked. Unfortunately, they play as if they are tanking on purpose, and it has destroyed my Pacer-fan morale. I'm getting less interested in watching Pacer basketball because of their lack of effort. Tanking the year would be devastating for the team financially...and I'd have to pick a new team to be a fan of..cuz the Pacers would be gone.

I'd say that we should just hire a different coach, bench TJ, and play our hearts out. We still wouldn't make the playoffs, but at least the real Pacer fans wouuld appreciate the effort and we would continue to support them. We would end up with another 10-13 pick. There have been really good players picked in the late lotter (Reggie). If we can land another to go with Granger then maybe we can contend in a few years instead of being completely dissolved as a franchise.

Dcbaseballer52 · Post #12 » by **Dcbaseballer52** » Sun Dec 6, 2009 11:36 pm

That is why we should have rebuilt the team in the first place while we were in less danger of getting dissolved. Immediately after the brawl there was still hope that Artest would come back and we would be good again. Even after we traded him JO and Peja seemed to be a pretty good duo with Granger as a rookie... but once Peja did not come back we traded for AL AKA the second beginning of the end (with the brawl being the first beginning of the end). We threw away our 2007 1st pick which would have allowe us to choose from such players as Thaddeus Young, Al Thornton, Rodney Stuckey, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Brooks etc.

Then after trading so much to get him we ship him out of here in the stephen jackson package. In that trade we acquired less talent than we received, took on 2 very bad salaries, and exchanged defense for offense. We then went on a pretty big slump that took us from around a 6th seed in the East to not making the playoffs and breaking the leagues longest active playoff streak. Since then Dunleavy has been hurt a whole lot, and we have not been a player to get the free agents that even we might otherwise get. The ONLY good part of that trade was that we got rid of Jackson.... but that was an image problem... as far as a Basketball decision it was not a good one as Jackson was one of our leading scorers and was our best defender at the time.

Oh... and don't forget trading 3 2nd round picks for James White to not even have him make the roster.

If O'brien needs to go Larry Bird should be right behind him. He may not have had the final say on all those decisions but he certainly had influence and he has done nothing to change my opinion of him since the job was made his full-time. About the only real good move he has made is signing Dahntay Jones.

kdawg531 · Post #13 » by **kdawg531** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:30 am

Dcbaseballer52 wrote:That is why we should have rebuilt the team in the first place while we were in less danger of getting dissolved. Immediately after the brawl there was still hope that Artest would come back and we would be good again. Even after we traded him JO and Peja seemed to be a pretty good duo with Granger as a rookie... but once Peja did not come back we traded for AL AKA the second beginning of the end (with the brawl being the first beginning of the end). We threw away our 2007 1st pick which would have allowe us to choose from such players as Thaddeus Young, Al Thornton, Rodney Stuckey, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Brooks etc.

Then after trading so much to get him we ship him out of here in the stephen jackson package. In that trade we acquired less talent than we received, took on 2 very bad salaries, and exchanged defense for offense. We then went on a pretty big slump that took us from around a 6th seed in the East to not making the playoffs and breaking the leagues longest active playoff streak. Since then Dunleavy has been hurt a whole lot, and we have not been a player to get the free agents that even we might otherwise get. The ONLY good part of that trade was that we got rid of Jackson.... but that was an image problem... as far as a Basketball decision it was not a good one as Jackson was one of our leading scorers and was our best defender at the time.

Oh... and don't forget trading 3 2nd round picks for James White to not even have him make the roster.

If O'brien needs to go Larry Bird should be right behind him. He may not have had the final say on all those decisions but he certainly had influence and he has done nothing to change my opinion of him since the job was made his full-time. About the only real good move he has made is signing Dahntay Jones.

You cannot possibly argue that Bird has not done a good job. It's easy to look back on certain trades and say he messed up but in the end he has rebuilt this franchise essentially from the ground up.

He needed to get rid of every player that was affiliated with the brawl, and he did so. On top of that he brought in plenty of pieces to rebuild with, and we are currently right in the middle of this process. Patience isn't easy to have, but as Pacers fans it is essential right now.

While I'll admit that I am dissappointed with their play thus far, it is still very early in the season. Once JOB finds the right rotation, things will start to look better on the court.

Plus, one summer from the one coming up, we will have tons of cap space and plenty of free agents to go after. Things in Indy will be just fine in two years time. Faith and patience are key right now.

Post #14 » by **Miller4ever** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:05 am

kdawg531 wrote:Things in Indy will be just fine in two years time. Faith and patience are key right now.

I need you to post here more. Please.

Boneman2 · Post #15 » by **Boneman2** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:09 am

I am not a fan of tanking, although I would've thrown a game late last season to get Jennings.

Obie will be here for the remainder of the season, but if we finish where our current pace projects, both he and Bird probably should go.

We might need someone with a fresh perspective in regards to our roster, and a coach who is not brainwashed into playing vets whenever he should be developing our future prospects. What is the difference if you're going to lose anyway. Atleast with young players the fans aren't as harsh, and they'll be more understanding as long as there is effort.

When Larry returned as the GM in-waiting/ he inherited a championship team, totally different than the contender he left in 2000. This was an amazing turnover by Donnie, and probably left the fans thinking that rebuilding is always this seamless. Now we're impatient after making the playofss for nearly two straight decades.

Of course the brawl reduced our team to rubble. However, enough time has past and it is apparent we need better direction.

kdawg531 · Post #16 » by **kdawg531** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 7:58 am

Miller4ever wrote:
kdawg531 wrote:Things in Indy will be just fine in two years time. Faith and patience are key right now.

I need you to post here more. Please.

I try to post here and there but most often I lurk without saying anything. I'll work on it more... just for you

HookShotHibbert · Post #17 » by **HookShotHibbert** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:43 pm

Dcbaseballer52 wrote: Wait that won't happen cuz Bird takes experienced players who we know have no significant upside.

Dcbaseballer52 wrote:All he is wanting to do is validate his own career by building a team around white jump shooters that remind him of himself.

Dcbaseballer52 wrote:Oh... and don't forget trading 3 2nd round picks for James White to not even have him make the roster.

So you want Bird to take some risks in his player aquisitions, i.e. trading 3-2nd round picks (which are usually worthless anyway) for a guy who was an "exciting, high flying, not white jumpshooter" who had what he saw as "upside". Your three comments all seem to contradict each other!!!

Dunthreevy · Post #18 » by **Dunthreevy** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:56 pm

HookShotHibbert wrote:
Dcbaseballer52 wrote: Wait that won't happen cuz Bird takes experienced players who we know have no significant upside.

Dcbaseballer52 wrote:All he is wanting to do is validate his own career by building a team around white jump shooters that remind him of himself.

Dcbaseballer52 wrote:Oh... and don't forget trading 3 2nd round picks for James White to not even have him make the roster.

So you want Bird to take some risks in his player aquisitions, i.e. trading 3-2nd round picks (which are usually worthless anyway) for a guy who was an "exciting, high flying, not white jumpshooter" who had what he saw as "upside". Your three comments all seem to contradict each other!!!

Wear it!!

HookShotHibbert · Post #19 » by **HookShotHibbert** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 6:04 pm

Also, please note before you say James WHite had NO upside, remember:

He was ranked among the top three small forward prospects in the country by The Sporting News and was named the Maryland high school Player of the Year as a JUNIOR.

He earned McDonald’s All-American honors as a senior.

And he has something no one on our roster has, an NBA championship!

Starkiller · Post #20 » by **Starkiller** » Mon Dec 7, 2009 7:22 pm

Dcbaseballer52 wrote:Larry Bird needs to take over this team that he assembled and so when we continue to lose it will be clear that he does not have what it takes to be an NBA exec. All he is wanting to do is validate his own career by building a team around white jump shooters that remind him of himself. This style does not work in this league. Steve Nash has been the sparkplug for the leagues best up-tempo attack ever since he has been in Phoenix... and how many titles have they won? Look at the list of champions ever since the Bulls era.

1999- San Antonio Spurs (Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott, Mario Ellie, Tim Duncan, David Robinson)
2000- Los Angeles Lakers (Ron Harper, Kobe Bryant, Glen Rice, Robert Horry, Shaquille O'neal)
2001- Los Angeles Lakers (Ron Harper, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Shaquille O'neal)
2002- Los Angeles Lakers ( Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Shaquille O'neal)
2003- San Antonio Spurs (Tony Parker, Stephen Jackson, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, David Robinson)
2004- Det. Pistons (Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace)
2005- San Antonio Spurs (Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, Rasho Nesterovic)
2006- Miami Heat (Jason Williams, Dwyane Wade, Antoine Walker, Udonis Haslem, Shaquille O'neal)
2007- San Antonio Spurs (Tony Parker, Michael Finley, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, Fabricio Oberto)
2008- Boston Celtics (Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kendrick Perkins)
2009- Los Angeles Lakers (Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Trevor Ariza, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum)

Almost every single one of these teams has an elite guard and a dominate big man. The one obvious exception to a team-wide effort is the 04 Pistons... but even they were a team built on DEFENSE.

Simply put... right now it seems that our ultimate goal is to make it back to the playoffs. If that is our ultimate goal we are wasting our time. The goal should be to win a championship. We do not have the players or even a core of players needed to tin a championship. Danny Granger is a #2 option on a championship caliber team. We need a top-tier superstar to take us to the next level. Someone that is no doubt one of the top 15-20 players in the league. We should know by now that the Pacers will never get a player such as this through free agency.

1. Our cap situation is always a mess.
2. Players prefer warmer cities
3. Players prefer larger markets
4. Players prefer historical championship teams.

This leaves us with 2 routes. Either

A. We get lucky and a disgruntled superstar demands a trade and ultimately ends up in Indiana or
B. The most likely option.... we build through the draft.

now sometimes teams get lucky and get stars late in the draft.... but is is a much higher percentage to get a franchise players if you get a top 10 or top 5 pick. The Pacers have not had such a pick in a very long time because we lose a lot but we refuse to lose enough. The current tradition of getting a pick between 11 and 17 will NOT help us build a championship team. It would be much better to start losing the rest of our games NOW.

This is a fantastic post. I have been saying for years that the Pacers need a Star player. Granger is a great player but he isn't a star the caliber of Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant, Bosh, KG, Nash, etc. Paired with a player like that the Pacers would be a force. A player like that will require all the attention of the defense making the game so easy for Danny. The Al Harrington deal was ignorant, especially when we traded him away, which I still don't see why.

Personally I feel the whole "image" bs is dumb, IMO. I really don't think it was THAT big of a deal. I honestly don't care what my teams "image" is, unless it's something completely outrageous, which it wasn't. Look at Stephen Jackson now, don't really hear much trouble from him, and he's gotten way better since leaving Indiana. Ron Artest is just a lost plain and simple. JO had a bad contract, but was a great player, and other than throwing one punch which was justified IMO, he's a model citizen.

I just feel we absolutely WASTE our 1st round picks. We NEVER trade up to get a better pick when players that would GREATLY benefit us are available. Granted hindsight is 20/20 but honestly, WTF were they thinking drafting David Harrison? Here are our 1st round picks since 2000, and the notable guys that were taken AFTER we took these guys.....

2000
Primoz Brezec :lol:

Guys after him: Eddie House, Michael Redd

2001
No first round pick, our 2nd round pick was Jamison Brewer
Guys after: No one really worth mentioning, Bobby Simmons?

2002
Fred Jones
Guys after: Tayshawn Prince, Carols Boozer, John Salmons.

2003
Again, no first rounder 2nd round pick was James Jones
Guys after: No one worth mentioning, but this was one of the best classes EVER, should have traded up and got a star. James, Wade, Bosh, Kaman, West, Diaw, Josh Howard....etc.

2004
David Harrison :lol:

Guys After: Anderson Varejao, Chris Duhon, Trevor Ariza

2005
Danny Granger, probably the best pick in Pacers draft history other than Reggie.
Guys after: Irrelavant because Granger has turned out to be one of the best in that draft, and in the league. But they could have traded up for their 2nd pick and got: Monta Ellis, Hakim Warrick, David Lee. But other than Chris Paul, Granger turned out to be the best player in that draft.

2006
Shawne Williams :lol:

Guys after: Jordan Farmar, RAJON RONDO

2007
NO PICKS DUE TO THE WONDERFUL AL HARRINGTON DEAL

2008
Jerrid Bayless, who we trade for Brandon Rush, mulligan anyone?
Guys after: Courtney Lee, George Hill, Chris Douglas-Roberts, JJ Hickson, Anthony Randolph.....Brook Lopez was picked one before us, Eric Gordon three before us.

2009
Tyler Hansbrough (Still too early to tell, but does anyone really expect him to be more than just som hustle off the bench, and do you want to be spending your 13th pick on a role player at best?
Guys after: Ty Lawson, Darrin Collison, Dejaun Blair, Chase Buddinger.....Brandon Jennings was only two picks ahead of us.

Again, tough to know these things at the time, but I just feel that they are just wasting draft picks that never amount to anything. Out of all those picks, Granger is the ONLY one that has worked out, jury is still out on Hibbert and Hansbrough.