Just a thought on a trade

[Fola314]

first thing first: sorry for the double post

basically what i wanted to say all along is Tyreke is a much more superior player than Kevin even at this point in his career(matchup problems-wise), but even he's not sure if he's a PG( you can read the inerview here, and this may mean nothing but still, if your a PG, you declare that you are one, don't you? you just know.. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Tyreke-Evans-1110/ )

personally i'd go for DJ augustin+a first rounder for kmart. brown suddenly hates him and his value is down. why not try to get him? you can use him as your ballhandler to bring the ball to opposing half and as your shooter, while evans makes the plays off the dribble. (salaires don't match i know,but can be worked i guess). what do you think about this? bobcats would be a complete team, while it gives us a good PG and a 1st rounder...

I mostly agree with all of this, but can't we do better than DJ Augustin and pick? I think this is the real argument. Everyone is for trading Martin if it makes us better. If Kevin comes back and plays well while staying healthy (I know this is a big if), I imagine his value would be higher than that. I just feel like a deal that would make us better would involve some sort of proven commodity (or a mega prospect like John Wall). I don't think DJ Augustin or Caron Butler fall into either of these categories.

Another thing worth bringing up is the potential pitfalls of moving Tyreke to SG after trading KMart. We could encounter the exact same problem that Memphis (NCAA) did. Memphis moved Evans to PG because he plays better with the ball in his hands. Tyreke is a ball dominant player. He absolutely has not yet learned how to play off the ball. I went to the Nets game at Arco, all of Tyreke's points came off plays where he initiated the offense or ran the break. He dribbled away the shotclock on several possessions, and the Nets exploited it in the 3rd quarter. Tyreke is very good at driving and passing, this is where he gets the majority of his assists, but I think he doesn't care much to move the ball around the perimeter early in a possession.

Don't get me wrong, I love Evans, I believe he is a superstar in the making, but I am concerned at how effective he will be without the ball in his hands. Right now I think the best thing to do is to continue the "Evans at PG" experiment, at least until the end of the season. I agree with Mitch that Kevin knows how to play without the ball, and that he did so effectively before this season. I am very interested to see how a Tyreke/Martin backcourt develops over the course of a season, and over time Martin's value will likely increase anyway so I think its best to be patient.

[KF10]

I think Martin's defense has been overstated by many people for the last couple of years. Just this season, he was playing respectable defense consistently for the first time since pre-injury seasons. Last year, he was hindered severely due to his ankle, that severely limited his lateral movement and explosiveness in general. And the year before that, he had that groin injury too.

I think most people has this perception of Martin as this "sad" defender for a while but I don't think it is justifiable due to the injuries he had the past years. When Martin is fully healthy, he is not a "sad" defender. From 2006 and before (He was pretty much unknown from the general public at the during that period) , Martin played defense much better than his injury seasons. We had him defending the 1-2 on a consistent basis.

I think we tend to forget this aspect of Martin due to years of lack-luster/inconsistent defense of Martin and the team in general. But we saw a glimpse of solid defense that Martin provided just before he was out this year. It's a shame. Because he looked like a complete player this year. Carrying the scoring load (3rd best scorer in the NBA at the time) and being active on defense too. I hope he continues this when he gets back on the floor.


Just think about it first.

When was the last time you saw Martin fully healthy? (I give you a hint: tThe 2006-2007 season) And at the time, that was Martin's breakout season. Most people did not recognize Martin during that period. So, people are not familiar of Martin's abilities. During that time frame, Martin was playing defense that most people didn't knew he could at that extent. Martin was a tremendous one on one defender in terms of ball hawk attribute. He denied guard penetration most of the time. (For a example, I remember Martin defended Tony Parker very well one year. He limited Parker's penetration the best you can do against him and held him below his season averages iirc). He rarely get steals on one one one situations though. So, he gets steals from lazy passes, playing the passing lanes and etc. (To some extent, he still does this. Even on his injury-plagued seasons)

This may take some time to digest haha but this is what a healthy Martin can do on the defensive side of the ball. I think if you place Martin on a team that does not rely Martin to take majority of the scoring load, you will see Martin's defensive role increase.


....

This was my post a month ago or so in another forum. I think it applies right now. Let me add to it.

I been defending Martin from popular opinion, ignorance, inaccuracies and etc from non-Kings fans for years now, Martin's defense has been the most debated IMO. I just don't understand how other people are so declarative and conclusive to a player on a team that almost never receive national attention for years now. I find it silly. And there are some Kings fans here feel the same way for some reason. I don't want to point fingers so I leave it as is. Some of the accusations and blames are unjustified towards Martin, I think being the best player in the team, I guess there is a scape-goat element in all of this.

[Wolfay]

Martin does draw charges well, but I think there isn't much more to talk about in terms about his defense. I've never seen him be a particularly good individual defender, and as a team defender he's about average in my opinion. Overall I'd call him average to maybe a little bit below that. I for sure wouldn't call him a "tremendous one on one defender."

[KF10]

Martin does draw charges well, but I think there isn't much more to talk about in terms about his defense. I've never seen him be a particularly good individual defender, and as a team defender he's about average in my opinion. Overall I'd call him average to maybe a little bit below that. I for sure wouldn't call him a "tremendous one on one defender."

You took it out of context.

He was a good ball hawk defender type of player right before we needed his offensive role to increase or when he was healthy in general.

I remember in his rookie season, he pestered a lot of point guards and small quick guards with his length and quickness. He was regarded as a defensive, hustle player with us early parts of his career.

[OGSactownballer]

Don't argue with Wolfay - he's a registered Martin hater - LOL!

[XeOnagain]

i still think we need a real PG who DEFENDS... guys just watch 00:50 of kings-suns game video recap on nba.com. seeing nash BLOW BY Udrih. ugh.... that's just ugly. same for Sergio.. these guys are good backups on their best days, IF you want to be a playoff team... i'm still all for making a DJ Augustin trade, i'm more and more believeing that we can get him pretty easily seeing Brown hates him so much these days.

[pillwenney]

i still think we need a real PG who DEFENDS... guys just watch 00:50 of kings-suns game video recap on nba.com. seeing nash BLOW BY Udrih. ugh.... that's just ugly. same for Sergio.. these guys are good backups on their best days, IF you want to be a playoff team... i'm still all for making a DJ Augustin trade, i'm more and more believeing that we can get him pretty easily seeing Brown hates him so much these days.

We have one--Tyreke. The problem is that we don't have the personnel to allow him to play at PG right now. We are better over all as a team with Beno/Sergio on the floor a lot of the time. And to be fair, it's Nash, and he was getting a lot of screens (and of course, you can't go behind a screen with Nash).

I would again ask where you're getting this idea that DJ Augustin can be/is the answer to defensive problems at PG. Pretty much no PGs as small as him are ever good defenders.

[Smills91]

Martin does draw charges well, but I think there isn't much more to talk about in terms about his defense. I've never seen him be a particularly good individual defender, and as a team defender he's about average in my opinion. Overall I'd call him average to maybe a little bit below that. I for sure wouldn't call him a "tremendous one on one defender."

He takes charges well, is a solid help defender, and plays the passing lanes VERY well. He's also makes heady plays on defense that a lot players won't/can't make cuz of his quickness...

He's no lock-down perimeter defender, but he's a solid defender overall.

[Smills91]

Martin does draw charges well, but I think there isn't much more to talk about in terms about his defense. I've never seen him be a particularly good individual defender, and as a team defender he's about average in my opinion. Overall I'd call him average to maybe a little bit below that. I for sure wouldn't call him a "tremendous one on one defender."

You took it out of context.

He was a good ball hawk defender type of player right before we needed his offensive role to increase or when he was healthy in general.

I remember in his rookie season, he pestered a lot of point guards and small quick guards with his length and quickness. He was regarded as a defensive, hustle player with us early parts of his career.

I remember him shutting a pre-injury Gilbert Arenas DOWN in crunch time IN WASHINGTON( I think it was '06). we had no answer for him and stuck Martin on him and his quickness really bothered Gil.

[Smills91]

[quote="XeOnagain"]i still think we need a real PG who DEFENDS... guys just watch 00:50 of kings-suns game video recap on nba.com. seeing nash BLOW BY Udrih. ugh.... that's just ugly. same for Sergio.. these guys are good backups on their best days, IF you want to be a playoff team... i'm still all for making a DJ Augustin trade, i'm more and more believeing that we can get him pretty easily seeing Brown hates him so much these days.[/quote]

And you suggest DJ Augustin???

[pillwenney]

I actually have never seen Kevin as a particularly strong off-the-ball defender. In fact, to me, his main weakness defensively is that he tends to lose his man off the ball pretty often. On the ball, when he's locked in and he doesn't have to carry the team offensively he's really quite solid at staying with his man and drawing charges. Of course, he's bound to struggle with guards that can use their strengths against him, but there aren't many Bonzi Wells in this league, so he's usually fine there.

[XeOnagain]

[quote="XeOnagain"]i still think we need a real PG who DEFENDS... guys just watch 00:50 of kings-suns game video recap on nba.com. seeing nash BLOW BY Udrih. ugh.... that's just ugly. same for Sergio.. these guys are good backups on their best days, IF you want to be a playoff team... i'm still all for making a DJ Augustin trade, i'm more and more believeing that we can get him pretty easily seeing Brown hates him so much these days.

And you suggest DJ Augustin???[/quote]

obviously he's better than beno and sergio. he's a starting caliber PG, who has good footwork on D. any player on Larry Brown teams is a nice or willing defender,who has at least a nice knowledge of D. but of course he's not that good. then again, you claimed that K-Mart is a good defender so i'm not going to argue about Augustin because simply, Kevin's awful on D. no twisting the fact with arguments like "takes charges well". you just don't let your guy penetrate if your good. not flop.
AND, K-mart is NOT a good help defender, i'm guessing this argument comes from the fact that there's no solid evidence about this. he's not. believe me. pierce, garnett and allen are good help defenders. kevin isn't. nocioni is good, if you wanna see a good example of a help defender on kings.
you CLAIM he's great at playing passing lanes. he's not. he gets a few steals but at 1 spg(career, last year 1.2), you can't bank on his ability to play the passing lanes.
finally, you gave an example of a 06 game against Gil. that's good, but then again, Hedo Turkoglu blocked Kobe's last second shot in the finals. and he's not a good defender.

@mitch
i'm not claiming he(DJ)'s a good defender but he has the speed to defend. that's all, he wouldn't get blown by Nash. and he's better than beno and sergio. and mitch, OT: i'm still waiting for some kind of response to the mail i sent to "contact the mods" adress. any news on that?

[Smills91]

[quote="XeOnagain"]i still think we need a real PG who DEFENDS... guys just watch 00:50 of kings-suns game video recap on nba.com. seeing nash BLOW BY Udrih. ugh.... that's just ugly. same for Sergio.. these guys are good backups on their best days, IF you want to be a playoff team... i'm still all for making a DJ Augustin trade, i'm more and more believeing that we can get him pretty easily seeing Brown hates him so much these days.

And you suggest DJ Augustin???

obviously he's better than beno and sergio. he's a starting caliber PG, who has good footwork on D. any player on Larry Brown teams is a nice or willing defender,who has at least a nice knowledge of D. but of course he's not that good. then again, you claimed that K-Mart is a good defender so i'm not going to argue about Augustin because simply, Kevin's awful on D. no twisting the fact with arguments like "takes charges well". you just don't let your guy penetrate if your good. not flop.
AND, K-mart is NOT a good help defender, i'm guessing this argument comes from the fact that there's no solid evidence about this. he's not. believe me. pierce, garnett and allen are good help defenders. kevin isn't. nocioni is good, if you wanna see a good example of a help defender on kings.
you CLAIM he's great at playing passing lanes. he's not. he gets a few steals but at 1 spg(career, last year 1.2), you can't bank on his ability to play the passing lanes.
finally, you gave an example of a 06 game against Gil. that's good, but then again, Hedo Turkoglu blocked Kobe's last second shot in the finals. and he's not a good defender.

@mitch
i'm not claiming he(DJ)'s a good defender but he has the speed to defend. that's all, he wouldn't get blown by Nash. and he's better than beno and sergio. and mitch, OT: i'm still waiting for some kind of response to the mail i sent to "contact the mods" adress. any news on that?[/quote]

Really, he's looked like a lost puppy all season and Beno and Sergio have been ripping the league a new one most of the season. Sure DJ had a better year last year, but it's not obvious, not in the least, ESPECIALLY if we're talking about the defensive side of the ball.

[donemilio21]

What would you think about;

Kevin Martin and Mikki Moore for Chris Kaman and Ricky Davis

Martin and Kaman have similar contracts, Davis and Moore have expiring ones.

[KingInExile]

What would you think about;

Kevin Martin and Mikki Moore for Chris Kaman and Ricky Davis

Martin and Kaman have similar contracts, Davis and Moore have expiring ones.

Mikki Moore has not been on the team for more than a year.

Aside from that, the idea doesn't excite me in the slightest...and I'm someone who's open to trading Martin.

[pillwenney]

obviously he's better than beno and sergio. he's a starting caliber PG, who has good footwork on D. any player on Larry Brown teams is a nice or willing defender,who has at least a nice knowledge of D. but of course he's not that good. then again, you claimed that K-Mart is a good defender so i'm not going to argue about Augustin because simply, Kevin's awful on D. no twisting the fact with arguments like "takes charges well". you just don't let your guy penetrate if your good. not flop.
AND, K-mart is NOT a good help defender, i'm guessing this argument comes from the fact that there's no solid evidence about this. he's not. believe me. pierce, garnett and allen are good help defenders. kevin isn't. nocioni is good, if you wanna see a good example of a help defender on kings.
you CLAIM he's great at playing passing lanes. he's not. he gets a few steals but at 1 spg(career, last year 1.2), you can't bank on his ability to play the passing lanes.
finally, you gave an example of a 06 game against Gil. that's good, but then again, Hedo Turkoglu blocked Kobe's last second shot in the finals. and he's not a good defender.

@mitch
i'm not claiming he(DJ)'s a good defender but he has the speed to defend. that's all, he wouldn't get blown by Nash. and he's better than beno and sergio. and mitch, OT: i'm still waiting for some kind of response to the mail i sent to "contact the mods" adress. any news on that?

If you look at almost all of the best PG defenders (prime Kidd, Payton, Billups, Frazier, Hinrich), they all have one thing in common--size. Size is really much more important when it comes to guarding PGs than anything. Nobody in the league is quick enough laterally to stay with the quicker PG's--especially not with today's rules. The best PG defenders funnel the opposing PGs into bigs, body them up a little when they drive, and use their size to take up space. I feel pretty safe in saying that DJ Augustin will never be a very good man defender. Ford isn't, Parker isn't, AI isn't--the list goes on. There are some exceptions people might point out--Rondo isn't particularly strong or tall, but he's long as hell, which essentially makes him play bigger defensively. He's also kind of overrated defensively. There is also Paul--who really isn't that good of a defender and just really is overrated defensively.

Also, first off, Nash had a lot of screens the other night, but it's also Steve Nash. The guy is extremely hard to guard. He is still very quick, but to make matters worse, you have to respect his outside shot so, so much. How do you think Peja got to the basket with our old Kings teams? It's not because he was quick, but because defenders had to glue themselves to him on the perimeter. The same principle applies to Nash--especially with screens. If you go over screens with Nash, he'll burn you and be able to penetrate. If you go under screens, you're leaving open one of the greatest shooters in the history of the game. Augustin wouldn't do a better job than anybody on our team.

Also playing for Larry Brown doesn't make you an automatically good defender--and it's especially not reassuring of one's D when you're in his dog house. It may assure that you're on a good defensive team. But guys don't play for LB and then suddenly become markedly better defenders wherever they go.

And I wouldn't say Kevin is "good" on D outside of certain matchups, but he absolutely isn't awful. He really isn't, particularly when his body (at least his legs) is at full strength and he doesn't have to carry the full load offensively. Both will be true when he returns. The fact that he can draw charges on the perimeter so well is indicative of what he's capable defensively with his quick feet, because that is incredibly hard to do. He has his ups and downs, but over all, I feel comfortable saying he's an average defender when you consider everything.

Edit: And I responded to your e-mail.

[XeOnagain]

well, i still think even though he's not a defensive guy, augustin would be better overall for this team, at least better than Beno or Sergio.

on Martin, we agree to disagree then. just tell me something, don't you just get absolutely angry when Kevin -almost everytime- tries to leak and nearly NEVER tries to grab a defensive rebound? he's a golden state warrior at heart, and i just don't think he's a go-to guy on offense, on a contender. he isn't average on D, and will never be..

from nba.com:

""Blabber: "Yo, son ... Kevin Martin is a BEAST!"
Verdict: Overreaction
Reasons: I watched both of these guys' teams play each other last night and it only reinforced what I thought about both. Martin put up a slapdash 48 points and Gasol finished with a subtle 16 and 11. Both performances reinforced what I already thought about each player -- Martin is overrated and Pau's little brother is a slept-on gem.
I'm not like those old curmudgeons that actually hate the league that they cover and on crusades against players they don't like. I don't have any personal issues with Martin. He seems like a nice dude and he's productive on the court. But his reputation -- especially among dimwitted fans -- is so outsized that it irks me. Take any of the top ten teams in the league and he's the third best player, at best (although he'd be a very dope third-banana). But because he puts up gaudy numbers (currently third in the league at 31 ppg) folks act like he's a All-NBA. Ummm, no he's not.
I'll never forget sitting in the Clippers locker room last season and overhearing the squad talk about a 30-point game Martin had against another squad the previous night. One of the guys said, "I bet about 14 of 'em were on leaks"... as in: about 28 of the 30 probably came on plays where, almost as soon as the shot left the opponent's hand, Martin was leaking (and streaking) down the court for a bucket. Think of it as sly basket-hanging. That was obviously an exaggeration, but it gives you an idea of the level of esteem accorded to him by his peers. Martin is a good young player, but let's not go too far. A Martin 25 is not a Melo 25.""""

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/v ... index.html

that's what Martin makes us look like, and i'm sorry but i'll never see him as an all-around player. he has no will to defend.

[pillwenney]

He just doesn't do that nearly that often--and especially hasn't in recent years. I'd guess that he scores 2-3 PPG on leak outs.

[Smills91]

Sounds more like that guy's got an axe to grind...his boi, probably doesn't get as much love as Martin. Clippers huh? He's probably all up in E. Gordon's jock and pissed that Martin is a better player than him, because the majority of what he said, was about 2% accurate.