MVP Rankings 1.0

[InBoobieWeTrust]

By you're formula I have Kobe ahead by 2. I'm taking a half point away from Lebron in the leadership department because the guy screws around too much to be taken seriously as a leader. When you screw around too much you do (Please Use More Appropriate Word) things fail to the best team in the conference to the finals because you lost to an inferior team with a broken wing.

The team takes LeBron seriously, so it doesn't matter if you do or not. They know he's the leader of the team and him "screwing around" if him celebrating the success of his team.

Team Success: Kobe 5 Lebron 4

We agree

Stats: Kobe 4 Lebron 5

We agree

Swap Teams: Kobe 5 Lebron 4

I don't even know how to respond to this. I can't believe you're seriously even trying, even ATTEMPTING, even SUGGESTING that the Lakers aren't CLEARLY the more talented team when you take out LeBron and Kobe. If you can't admit that you're either on Kobe's pay-roll or just stupid. This is the biggest difference we have obviously and it's a two point swing.

Leadership: Kobe 5 Lebron 4

I say 4.5, you say four...not too much of a difference her. All I know is that your reasoning is flawed as to why he loses half a point so I can't take it seriously.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

And it's not even spin. My argument is that the majority of people expected that the Cavs would win less than 66 games this year. Therefore the Cavs are not failing to meet expectations, which is what you were trying to argue. It's just not true. The Cavs are falling in-line with the expectations that most people had of them this season as it pertains to regular season success. The Cavs are not falling short of expectations. You are WRONG in that assertion.

The majority of people also expected the Cavs to finish with the best record in the East...who cares about what win total you want to put on it. Yes...the Cavs are failing to meet expectations. We'll see where they're at in January, but yes, for now, they are not meeting expectations.

Really? I wish I could find that thread again, because I remember vividly that thread predicting a lot of Boston/Orlando #1 finishes. Hell, a lot of people(myself included) knew that those three would all be in the mix very close to each other and didn't give a specific order.

Overall the Cavs are meeting expectations. The first six games? We weren't meeting them...since then? We've exceeded them. It balances out.

[JimMurray]

I'm not saying LeBron has a bad team. I'm simply saying that Kobe has a better team, which isn't even debatable in my opinion. If the Lakers win 3-5 more games(65-67 wins versus 62 for the Cavs), is that really such a strong argument for Kobe's MVP rights, is it a reflection of Kobe performing better than LeBron, or is it a reflection of having two 20-10, skilled, mobile seven footers starting, Artest complimenting him on the wings, and Odom coming off the bench?

You're right, thats not debatable, but it's also doesn't need to be used to penalized Kobe's MVP Candidacy. We've already established back on pages 14-16 of this thread that that anyone in the East is playing a much weaker schedule than anyone in the West. Yes, if the Lakers win 3-5 games more than the Cavs, that is a HUGE deal in determining the MVP. Huge. And if that happens, Kobe wins MVP hands down. I don't care how much help you want to say Kobe has, the only way the Lakers finish with the best record is if someone orchestrates those pieces to become championship relevant. I think Lebron proved last year that having the best team does not necessarily equal automatic wins.

How is it not about wins and losses? If the Cavs were expected to win 58-64 games, and they meet that range, how is that not meeting expectations? That's the DEFINITION of meeting expectations.(I wish I could find the RealGM predictions thread...they really need to let us use the search feature)

It's NOT about wins and losses....it's about wins and losses in relation to the rest of the teams in the league. If 58 wins buys you the best record in the NBA, than thats just as good as 66 wins last year....which bought Cleveland the best record in the NBA.

I think most people thought L.A. was clearly the best team in the league(I sure as hell did and still do), with Boston, Orlando, Cleveland, and S.A. rounding out the "big-5" slightly under the Lakers level. The Cavs, Celtics, and Magic don't have much separation between each other(the Spurs aren't good but that's a different discussion for a different thread). The Cavs are right where I think they were pegged to be by most, which is right in the mix of the top 5 and on pace for probably more than 60 wins..they're meeting expectations)

[/quote]

So what is your point? Are you saying we are going to penalize Kobe for playing on a good team? Is that the argument? If it is, just come out and say it. Kobe can't be MVP because he plays on the best team....eff whatever he does for the rest of the season. At least that way we can acknowledge your stance and stop pussyfooting around it. Nobody is going to argue with you that the Lakers have the best team. When you tell me that, my response will be that the Lakers have the best team because of Kobe's leadership, and that's how the majority of objective fans will see it. We will see it that way because Lebron showed last year that just because your on the better team, does not mean you are going to win...not even in a 7 game series.

[JimMurray]

I disagree, simply because you can't expect an inferior team to post a better record. If they do post a better record, then we see land-slide victories like last year.

Sure you can...especially if they did it last year, and especially because they play in a weaker conference.

LeBron took a team that didn't have as much talent as the Lakers to a better record. Because of this, he won the MVP by a land-slide and it was the clearest MVP since KG won it by a land-slide.

Yeah, and was a great argument......LAST YEAR. Now that we all know that Lebron has a squad that is capable of finishing with the leagues best record, and they made that team better in the off-season in relation to what everyone else did, that argument doesn't cut it anymore.

Maybe it isn't the land-slide it was last year, but a few wins one way or the other don't take LeBron from land-slide winner to runner-up...it just takes LeBron from land-slide winner to leader who should make sure to take a glance over his shoulder.

I understand this is how my Ohio brothers and sisters are going to view it (I used to live in Columbus and make the two and half hour drive to watch the Cavs all the time). But thats not the way the Objective NBA fan is going to see it.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

So what is your point? Are you saying we are going to penalize Kobe for playing on a good team? Is that the argument? If it is, just come out and say it. Kobe can't be MVP because he plays on the best team....eff whatever he does for the rest of the season. At least that way we can acknowledge your stance and stop pussyfooting around it. Nobody is going to argue with you that the Lakers have the best team. When you tell me that, my response will be that the Lakers have the best team because of Kobe's leadership, and that's how the majority of Laker fans will see it. We will see it that way because Lebron showed last year that just because your on the better team, does not mean you are going to win...not even in a 7 game series, because match-ups are extremely important in the NBA and some teams don't match-up well.

1.) Fixed.


I'm not penalizing him for it. I'm just saying it has to be considered. You can't penalize LeBron either for not having the cast Kobe does(although he does have a good cast) when both teams are winning over 60 games. It goes both ways, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

And the fact that you are using the playoffs as part of your argument shows how weak your argument is, because the playoffs and their results have no relevance to the MVP discussion.

[JimMurray]

The team takes LeBron seriously, so it doesn't matter if you do or not. They know he's the leader of the team and him "screwing around" if him celebrating the success of his team.

I don't doubt that they do...but they do so to a fault and I'll explain why.

Swap Teams: Kobe 5 Lebron 4

I don't even know how to respond to this. I can't believe you're seriously even trying, even ATTEMPTING, even SUGGESTING that the Lakers aren't CLEARLY the more talented team when you take out LeBron and Kobe. If you can't admit that you're either on Kobe's pay-roll or just stupid. This is the biggest difference we have obviously and it's a two point swing.

I understand this is an open and shut case in Ohio, but everyone else knows that the Magic losing to the Cavs last year was a travesty. When the Lakers played the Nuggets in last year's WCF when Bynum was a SHELL of himself, the Nuggets were equal if not better than the Lakers. Kobe had those boys ready to play and they gutted out a tough 6 game series and got themselves to the Finals. There is no way your going to be able to convince me that the Magic were better or equal to the Cavs, no way. Lebron had his guys believing that it was going to be a cake walk to the finals, playing flag football during practice, break dancing before the games....so much so that they lost to a team that they should have taken out in 5 or 6. Put Kobe on the Cavs against the Magic, they win that series. Put Lebron on the Lakers.....Denver in 6 or 7.

Leadership: Kobe 5 Lebron 4

I say 4.5, you say four...not too much of a difference her. All I know is that your reasoning is flawed as to why he loses half a point so I can't take it seriously.

It's not flawed, and you saying that it is flawed doesn't make it true. Lebron's transparency is gone, and everyone is becoming wise to the fact that he clearly has some maturity issues in much the same way that Kobe had maturity issues at the same age.

[JimMurray]

Really? I wish I could find that thread again, because I remember vividly that thread predicting a lot of Boston/Orlando #1 finishes. Hell, a lot of people(myself included) knew that those three would all be in the mix very close to each other and didn't give a specific order.

Overall the Cavs are meeting expectations. The first six games? We weren't meeting them...since then? We've exceeded them. It balances out.

That's fair. But don't try to tell me that nobody thought the Cavs would be competing for HCA. Just don't.

[JimMurray]

I'm not penalizing him for it. I'm just saying it has to be considered. You can't penalize LeBron either for not having the cast Kobe does(although he does have a good cast) when both teams are winning over 60 games. It goes both ways, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

Why? Last year the Cavs finished with the best record in the NBA, and got better in the off-season. The Lakers are returning the same team and made an even swap with Ariza and Artest. They should be able to compete with the Lakers for best record.

And the fact that you are using the playoffs as part of your argument shows how weak your argument is, because the playoffs and their results have no relevance to the MVP discussion.

They have relevance in determining the traits inherent in the candidates, and if leadership is to be considered when determining the MVP, it absolutely is relevant.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Really? I wish I could find that thread again, because I remember vividly that thread predicting a lot of Boston/Orlando #1 finishes. Hell, a lot of people(myself included) knew that those three would all be in the mix very close to each other and didn't give a specific order.

Overall the Cavs are meeting expectations. The first six games? We weren't meeting them...since then? We've exceeded them. It balances out.

That's fair. But don't try to tell me that nobody thought the Cavs would be competing for HCA. Just don't.

I never said that, I just said that the Cavs weren't expected to win 66+ games again.

They were expected to win 58-64 games and be right in the mix with Boston and Orlando for the top of the East(no order of teams 1-3 by the end of the year would be surprising), and also were expected to finish behind L.A..

The expectations are being met. That's all I'm saying. It's starting to play out exactly like most people thought.

[YLSKillaCam]

How do last year's playoffs have no relevance? What happened last year isn't automatically erased because you say so.

If last year has no bearing on this year, then you can't use the argument that Kobe's on a stacked team because the only way you know that is how well his team and teammates performed last year.

Besides, after MVP is awarded, the race is on for the next MVP.

You think Dirk would've sniffed league MVP in 07-08 even if he was deserving?

[InBoobieWeTrust]

How do last year's playoffs have no relevance? What happened last year isn't automatically erased because you say so.

If last year has no bearing on this year, then you can't use the argument that Kobe's on a stacked team because the only way you know that is how well his team and teammates performed last year.

What are you talking about?

Last years playoffs have no relevance because this is a discussion on the MVP for this current REGULAR SEASON.

Why can't I used the "Stacked team argument?" It's even more pertinent now because Bynum is better than he was in the playoffs, so the team is even more stacked than previously thought.

[JimMurray]

What are you talking about?

Last years playoffs have no relevance because this is a discussion on the MVP for this current REGULAR SEASON.

Why can't I used the "Stacked team argument?" It's even more pertinent now because Bynum is better than he was in the playoffs, so the team is even more stacked than previously thought.

It was during last years playoffs that we found out that Lebron has leadership issues, thus making last years playoffs relevant in a peripheral sense.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

What are you talking about?

Last years playoffs have no relevance because this is a discussion on the MVP for this current REGULAR SEASON.

Why can't I used the "Stacked team argument?" It's even more pertinent now because Bynum is better than he was in the playoffs, so the team is even more stacked than previously thought.

It was during last years playoffs that we found out that Lebron has leadership issues, thus making last years playoffs relevant in a peripheral sense.

What leadership issues?
I swear to god some people just fabricate things that they know nothing about.

Was him communicating to all of his teammates challenging them to work hard and get better over the summer for next year bad leadership?

What about him taking rookie J.J. Hickson around the world with him in the second half of the summer, working out with him, developing his game because he couldn't go to big man camps or summer league because of a back injury?

Is that bad leadership?

"We found out LeBron had leadership issues in the playoffs"

I can't believe you typed that, what a joke. Unbelievable.\

And even if that statement was TRUE,(it isn't) his leadership in the playoffs has nothing to do with his leadership this season, which has been stellar especially after the early struggles(aside from that Chicago game)

[YLSKillaCam]

How do last year's playoffs have no relevance? What happened last year isn't automatically erased because you say so.

If last year has no bearing on this year, then you can't use the argument that Kobe's on a stacked team because the only way you know that is how well his team and teammates performed last year.

What are you talking about?

Last years playoffs have no relevance because this is a discussion on the MVP for this current REGULAR SEASON.

Why can't I used the "Stacked team argument?" It's even more pertinent now because Bynum is better than he was in the playoffs, so the team is even more stacked than previously thought.

You're not very consistent.

You say you can use last year's playoffs (Bynum's play) to inform you of how well the Lakers are now and as a result, why Kobe shouldn't be MVP. Then you say we can't use Lebron's teams results in the playoffs because this is a new season.

Well he's the reigning MVP, no? And so we should be able to use everything during his period of reign. One of the reasons Kobe wasn't favored to repeat last year is because he didn't win versus the Celtics. I heard many a fan say that.

What gives?

[InBoobieWeTrust]

You're not very consistent.

You say you can use last year's playoffs (Bynum's play) to inform you of how well the Lakers are now and as a result, why Kobe shouldn't be MVP. Then you say we can't use Lebron's teams results in the playoffs because this is a new season.

Well he's the reigning MVP, no? And so we should be able to use everything during his period of reign. One of the reasons Kobe wasn't favored to repeat last year is because he didn't win versus the Celtics. I heard many a fan say that.

What gives?

I'm using Bynum's play THIS season as a barometer for how stacked the Lakers are. (18PPG,9RPG)

You're trying to twist my words, you said I couldn't use the stacked team argument because "the only way you know that is how well his team and teammates performed last year."

You said my only barometer was the playoffs/last year to evaluate how the stacked Lakers are. If I was using that as the barometer, my argument for them being stacked would be WEAKER than my current argument(which DOES NOT use the playoffs) of the play of the Lakers THIS SEASON being that of a stacked team.


That's not one of the reasons Kobe didn't repeat. He didn't repeat because LeBron was above Kobe in every single facet of the MVP criteria during the regular season. That resulted in a LANDSLIDE.

At the moment, it's no longer a landslide and there are things that Kobe is doing well with in the criteria which is what makes it so close.

[Dat Pass]

Heres my question.. What could Kobe possibly be doing to make him more of an MVP?

Led his team to 8-3 without Gasol. (Bynum missed 2 games as well, so Mbenga was the starting center and they still won both games)

Overall best record in the league.

29-5-4 on 49% shooting and 3rd in steals. Its almost not possible to have better numbers than that on a team so "stacked" as everyone is saying.. Especially when you factor in how many times Kobe hasnt even played in the 4th due to blowout games.

What more should he be doing? With his starting lineup intact, they are 7-0 with an average win margin over 15. Should his stats be higher? Should they have an even better record than 16-3? Im curious..

[JimMurray]

It was during last years playoffs that we found out that Lebron has leadership issues, thus making last years playoffs relevant in a peripheral sense.

What leadership issues?
I swear to god some people just fabricate things that they know nothing about.

It's pretty difficult to fabricate blowing a trip to the finals.

Was him communicating to all of his teammates challenging them to work hard and get better over the summer for next year bad leadership?

I guess we'll see won't we?

What about him taking rookie J.J. Hickson around the world with him in the second half of the summer, working out with him, developing his game because he couldn't go to big man camps or summer league because of a back injury?

Is that bad leadership?

We'll see.

"We found out LeBron had leadership issues in the playoffs"

I can't believe you typed that, what a joke. Unbelievable.

Really? So you were fine with Lebron losing in the ECF to an inferior team? At least we're understood.

And even if that statement was TRUE,(it isn't) his leadership in the playoffs has nothing to do with his leadership this season, which has been stellar especially after the early struggles(aside from that Chicago game)

It's allows us to identify a starting point, and that starting point is worlds below Kobe's. Thats just how it is. We'll see where he's at in February.

[JimMurray]

I'm using Bynum's play THIS season as a barometer for how stacked the Lakers are. (18PPG,9RPG)

You're trying to twist my words, you said I couldn't use the stacked team argument because "the only way you know that is how well his team and teammates performed last year."

You said my only barometer was the playoffs/last year to evaluate how the stacked Lakers are. If I was using that as the barometer, my argument for them being stacked would be WEAKER than my current argument(which DOES NOT use the playoffs) of the play of the Lakers THIS SEASON being that of a stacked team.

You already admitted that Kobe shouldn't be penalized for playing on a better team, and nobody is disputing the Lakers have the better team. So what is your point?

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Heres my question.. What could Kobe possibly be doing to make him more of an MVP?

Led his team to 8-3 without Gasol. (Bynum missed 2 games as well, so Mbenga was the starting center and they still won both games)

Overall best record in the league.

29-5-4 on 49% shooting and 3rd in steals. Its almost not possible to have better numbers than that on a team so "stacked" as everyone is saying..

What more should he be doing?

Him doing all he can doesn't mean he should automatically get the MVP.

Him doing all he can doesn't necessarily make him the most valuable. His best isn't necessarily more valuable than LeBron's best.

I will say this, if his efficiency putting the ball in the basket was equal to LeBron's, he probably would be my MVP right now.

But, it isn't.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

...*all the stuff you said in your last post about the playoffs*

Blaming LeBron for that, blaming his leadership, whatever you're doing, is just wrong. There was nothing more LeBron could have done to win that Orlando series. Sometimes match-ups, inability to defend the other team, just end up biting you in the ass. The Cavs had nobody to defend Dwight Howard, and Dwight Howard was the leading scorer in every game we lost. He overpowered every single big-man we had without a problem. We had no answer, we had guys missing the same shots that they had made for 82 games.

We already had this discussion once, and I guess our opinions won't change on it, but as a Cavs fan watching every game of that series and knowing the team as well as I do, I can tell you, without a doubt, that LeBron was not responsible, whatsoever, for that series. He's LITERALLY the only reason we even won two games.