Lack of talent not the problem, folks...

[writerman]

I get really steamed when you get the perennial doomsayers on this board and others bemoaning our supposed lack of talent. I get especially POed when posters rip Bird for the supposedly crappy job he has done drafting, and those saying that getting Murphy and Dunleavy in the GS trade was the worst disaster since Hurricane Katrina.

IMO, the problem isn't lack of talent. We're not contenders, but I think there's enough talent here, used right, to be a solid playoff team, and much of it is young.

The key is used right. I am usually the last one to suggest firing the coach, but it's increasingly clear to me that O'Brien is in full panic mode and has no clue how to use the personnel on the team. I think he has this bunch so confused it's a wonder they can still find Conseco.

I'm inclined to agree that Murphy and Ford have to go. Murphy because he's got a big salary and is not being productive, and Ford because he just doesn't fit into the system.

But I see a healthy Dunleavy as a key component in the future success of this team. He's maybe the smartest player we've got, a solid all-around performer who can help teach the kids a lot of things they need to know about how to play the game right, the right veteran for a successful mix.

I've suggested we should inquire as to whether Bill Laimbeer would be interested in the head coaching position. He's ambitious, and I think he might jump at the chance. He could teach our young bigs so many of the nuances needed to mold them into winners. I have to hold my nose and say this, because he was the player I've always hated most of all of anyone who ever played in the NBA. But he's a got a great basketball mind, and would teach these kids the toughness and focus this team lacks.

Back to the talent. Danny is a great talent, but he is too much in love with the three. He needs to go to the hole much more frequently than he does. But talent-wise he's got the potential to be a true franchise player. Those numbers Hibbert was putting up earlier in the season were not, IMO, a fluke. He's got the stuff to be an above-average NBA five, and was on his way to being there already this season until, inexplicably, O'Brien (IMO) effed up his confidence. Then there's Hansborough, constantly dissed by the moron "there's no such thing as a good white ballplayer" crowd on this board and others, totally ignoring the passion he plays with, how savvy he is already, the nice numbers he's put up in restricted minutes, and the fact that he has been successful at every level he's competed at. I watched the game against the Cavs, and the Cavs announcers--including, I believe a pretty fair player himself at one time, Austin Carr--were comparing him favorably to a young Dave Cowens. For you young'uns who don't have a clue as to who Dave Cowens is/was, take my word for it that's pretty damned fast company.

IMO, that's the makings of a pretty formidable frontcourt for years to come, if they get consistent minutes and a coach who knows what the hell he's doing.

The backcourt? I still have faith in Rush. I think he's another O'Brien casualty. He raised expectations about himself at the end of last year, and when he slumped at the offensive end--despite playing maybe the best perimeter defense on the team--Obie destroyed any confidfence he had left.

We also have, other than Dunleavy, some useful and solid veterans. Foster, Watson, Dahntay Jones, etc. We also have a young PG I saw some commentators calling one of the steals of the draft, wondering how he fell to the second round, in Price.

So, I totally disagree that this team lacks decent talent. It just needs proper coaching, which O'Brien isn't providing.

We've also got the potential to improve...let Murphy and Ford go, and I think that provides cap space to get some decent pieces--a starting caliber PG and a decent back-up PF--for the rest of the puzzle to make us a contender in the next 2-3 years as the kids learn and develop.

Maybe the best thing Bird could do in the interim would be give O'Brien his walking papers and take over the on the bench himself. You can be assured there would be no lack of passion with the Birdman coaching the team. He not Red Auerbach, but he'd give this team the solid foundation and consistency it badly needs.

Comments?

[Crossova21]

Wow...that was long man. I agree Obie isn't getting the job done but I disagree with three points.

1.) I think this is what we can expect to get out of Rush. He doesn't have that aggressive attitude so he will play like this for the rest of his career.

2.) Murphy needs to go. I noticed you just said Ford and Foster. I actually don't mind having Foster because he brings veteran leadership.

3.) While Hansbrough (don't know if i spelled that right) is growing on me. I don't think he is a long-term answer at PF. I we don't have the chance to draft Wall I think we still need to look at another PF in the draft. I'm watching Greg Monroe now and I think he could work. Of course we'll be able to get him late so hopefully we'll trade down or acquire another pick to get him. He compliments Granger and Hibbert because he can pass and doesn't demand the ball. He'd rather set other people up which I'm fine with considering we don't have a PG that will do that.

[Dunthreevy]

First of all...

He needs to go to the hole much more frequently than he does.

Wow...that was long man.

That's what she said

Now that I got that out of the way (trust me it was eating away at me whilst I read the rest of your post), I'd have to say I agree with you. Problem is, on Sept. 25th our front office just made the dumbest decision they've made since the team started in it's downward spiral, in giving O'Brien another year on his contract. As much as I want the fool gone, it's not going to happen. Bird is loyal to his friends and O'Brien is just that.

[rhino2004]

I think if Murphy gets healthy, thats the biggie, he hasnt been healthy all year. He was bad*** last year. How many NBA players average 14.8ppg 11.8rpg and shoot .362 from 3 and hit 161 3's? If he can get back to that again, why trade him unless your going to get an up and coming 7 footer that can average 20ppg 12rpg? But why would you need that when you have Hibbert?

Why is everyone bashing Foster? Is it because he is 32? Who cares! No, he isnt flashy, but was Dale Davis flashy? Was Rik Smits flashy? No, but they got the job done. For his career Foster 5ppg and 7rpg. Not to mention 3 games ago played only 27 minutes but had 18 rebounds.

S

[Crossova21]

I think if Murphy gets healthy, thats the biggie, he hasnt been healthy all year. He was bad*** last year. How many NBA players average 14.8ppg 11.8rpg and shoot .362 from 3 and hit 161 3's? If he can get back to that again, why trade him unless your going to get an up and coming 7 footer that can average 20ppg 12rpg? But why would you need that when you have Hibbert?

Why is everyone bashing Foster? Is it because he is 32? Who cares! No, he isnt flashy, but was Dale Davis flashy? Was Rik Smits flashy? No, but they got the job done. For his career Foster 5ppg and 7rpg. Not to mention 3 games ago played only 27 minutes but had 18 rebounds.

S

Yea Murphy grabs boards and shoots the 3 but he plays ZERO D. Also he doesn't move on offense...just stands at the top of the key. If you don't believe me watch him and not the ball during our next game.

[rhino2004]

Hell, half the team doesnt play D either, and he stands at the top of the arc to shoot the 3.

Ok, since you are so gun-ho on trading him right now, who can we get that plays D and moves around on offense? Is Murphy perfect? But he does a lot of good stuff, score, rebound, shoot the 3 and he plays with heart. There is no perfect player that does everything, besides Lebron James and he isnt leaving Cleveland.

[Reginald Wayne]

Good Post.

1. I totally agree that Ford and Murphy need to go. Ford is completely unproductive and Murphy plays absolutely no D.

2. You're right about O'Brien misusing personnel. I didn't know what the hell he was thinking when he started to bench Hibbert after he compiled 4 or 5 straight double doubles. If you watched those games, Hibbert was psyched and showed all the confidence in the world after every bucket, board, block, tipped pass, etc. He was showing the type of confidence, tenacity, excitement, and hustle that the Pacers so desperately need. Then Obie started Foster. =/. Sure, Hibbert had some bad games, but I think he should be our starter every game. He can very well be the next good Center in the league. The way he keeps Ford in the game so long and under-utilizes Watson is inexplicable. Watson has been performing better than Ford in every facet of the game. O'brien needs to go.

3. About Laimbeer. Great idea. My thought was to have Bird coach again, but Laimbeer wouldn't be bad. It'd be a cool addition, I think.

4. About Danny taking it to the hole.
I'd love to see him do so...unfortunately he has terrible handles. It seemed like he worked on his shooting and defense. That's it. It's painful to watch him dribble. Occasionally, he finds an opening and is able to make it to the lane in one or two dribbles, but if he has to create on his own, he won't be able to. Until he learns to do this, I don't think that he can achieve superstardom.

5. I really hope Hansbrough turns out to be good. I don't see much basketball skills from him (which is weird because you'd assume that after playing so long he'd acquire some). He does hustle and gets to the line, but I'd like to see him make better decisions. Although I don't like him much, yet, I hope you are right about this guy.

6. Brandon Rush.
This is all we're getting out of Brandon Rush. He gets down after every shot he misses. He doesn't seem to play with any heart whatsoever, and that is something you can't teach. I gotta disagree with you about Rush here.

[Boneman2]

^^^
#4 Danny needs to add a solid post-game to ascend into superstardom. We clear it out and let Danny get it in the paint against weaker defenders, one-two dribbles at most. He could derive all kinds of offense in the post and add a fadeaway to his arsenal, not to mention creating for others and drawing a lot more fouls. I agree with the notion that Danny has less than desirable handles. In his defense though only a few 6'9" players can actually be trusted to penetrate the lane from the perimeter.

#2 The Hibbert situation is stupidity at its finest.

#5 Hansbrough is a Foster clone, he loses to Jeff in altering shots, but gains a lot more on offense. Especially drawing fouls.

#6 Brandon is soft.

#1 Ford needs to be somewhere else because he doesn't fit our system. I wonder if we could work a deal with CHI for Hinrich/Thomas for Murphy/Rush. Thomas is clearly on the outside looking in, and dealing Hinrich saves them a year of paying his starters salary. It doesn't fit with our plan to shed salary in 2011 but I'd add Hirich's salary past that point. Next I'd shop Ford and Foster.

#2 Obie is in the center of this mess. This team has went through a total tranformation during his tenure. It wasn't his fault, but he knew the situation when he got here. He certainly couldn't have thought his tenure would be too long.

[Kuq_e_Zi91]

Good discussion...

I think it's a little bit of both. When you look at our team from an outsider's point of view, it's basically a bunch of role players and Danny Granger. A lot of these guys would be good complimentary pieces on good teams but we're simply asking them to do too much and in O'Brien's case the wrong things. But I think he realizes this might be his last gig in the NBA and he trusts the vets more than rookies to bring him wins.

Foster has been great since returning. The problem is O'Brien starts him and has him play 20+ minutes. His ideal role is as a first big off the bench on a good team. I think he deserves better. He deserves to be playing for a championship, and not used as O'Brien's crutch whenever the opposing team has a big that's too agile for Roy. Let Roy go through the growing pains. We can't keep babying him and sheltering him from the faster players out there. It's just delaying his development.

Ford has regressed completely in this system, yet O'Brien still starts him and plays him way too many minutes. Honestly, is there a worse starting PG in the NBA? I can't think of one and I went through all the teams. Golden State is the only one that's a possibility because they run Monta and Curry, and neither are really point guards but still, both are better than Ford.

Dahntay Jones' offense has been a wonderful surprise so far, but whenever he's your 2nd option you know the talent on your team is lacking. Look at other teams around the NBA and their top two or three players. We have Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy and Dahntay Jones or Troy Murphy if you want to go by last year's stats... either way it's not good.

Which gets me to Murphy. If he's not making his threes, he's completely useless. Don't let the rebounding numbers fool you, those are easily replaced. We're a better defensive team without him and probably a better offensive team too, depending on if he's feeling it or not. Still, O'Brien continues to play Murphy for way too many minutes. Last year isn't happening again, Murph. I'm sorry. Teams have figured you out. All they gotta do is run out to you and make you put the ball on the floor and you're useless. What other PF in the league has no post game whatsoever?

And Rush, our final starter. I have high hopes for Rush and I really like the kid but he'll never blossom under O'Brien. I love his defense, and I've stated how I think he's the best perimeter defender on the team but he's playing scared on offense. However, until I see him play in another system for another coach, I'm not ready to give up on him on that side of the ball just yet.

But as you can see, we're probably one of the least talented teams in the NBA, especially now with Granger out six weeks. Last year we overachieved on incredible heart and hustle. This year our lack of talent is apparent and our coach is relying on the vets too much to save his job. And it worries me because I'm not even sure we're rebuilding the right way. We took a PF in a PG heavy draft, and now we need a PG in a draft thin on them. Because of O'Brien's stance on sticking with the vets, we don't even know what we have in the young guys on this roster. If it was up to me I'd run Price, Rush, Dunleavy (until Granger gets back), Hansbrough, Hibbert as my starters with mainly Dahntay, Solo and McBob off the bench. How are we going to make the correct decisions in the future when we don't even know what we have in our current roster? And what's the worst that can happen? Lose 9 out of 10? Been there. But at least we'd be losing and learning, instead of losing and going no where.

[writerman]

Again, I don't think our talent situation is that bad, and with the young players we have has the potential to develop into more wins. I think, because we see them more, there is a tendency to see the weaknesses in our guys while not seeing the weaknesses in players on other teams just because we don't see them regularly. When our guys don't produce like we would like them to all the time we tend to be more critical of them out of frustration.

I'm very satisfied with the potential of a frontcourt of Hibbert, Hansborough, and Granger. I think with time to learn and develop that's a frontcourt that will be able to contend on an even basis with the best teams in the league. How far down the road? God willin' and the crick don't rise, in two, maybe three years.

The criticism/evaluation of Hansborough I see here is especially flawed IMO. I think he suffers from the "there's no such thing as a good white ballplayer" syndrome so prevalent on these boards. Not to offend, but someone said they saw no skill in the kid. With all due respect, that's absurd. He starred for maybe the most prestigeous college program in the nation. You don't even role-play there without having a pretty impressive set of skills. I like his passion and aggressiveness, which in many ways is more important than raw talent. Examples--Larry Bird, Dave Cowens (to whom TH has been compared by someone who knows the game)

Backcourt is more problematic. Rush has the talent, but does he have the heart and the cojones? Remains to be seen, but the only way for that to be seen is to play him and let him eff up in the process of learning. One thing has become apparent about him, and even with his problems its clear the kid can play really good defense.

Despite his critics here, Dunleavy is a keeper. He's the smartest player we've got, and a good all-around player who can teach the kids a lot. I feel much the same way about Foster, and Watson is the backup who would be perfect to complement a good starting PG. Dahntay Jones is probably not as good as he has looked so far, but he too is solid and versatile.

We badly need a pass-first PG who can defend and stick the three when the occasion demands it.

Solomon, McBob, Head, Price, who knows? And we're definitely not going to find out with O'Brien as coach. I say again, he needs to go

I guess I just have to disagree with some of you about the talent avaialble on this team. I believe overall it's quite a bit better than some of you think. Check the other team's boards--it's an eye opener. You'll see fans there bitching and moaning about their players the way we do ours, more often than not accentuating the negative more than the positive, just like happens here.

It's also been said other than Danny, we have a roster of role players. Good. I've always been suspicious of the two star premise. All the really great teams feature all role players, some just more noticeable than others. Example: Tim Duncan, the ultimate role player in the league today. Seems like the Spurs have done pretty well...

comments?

[mizzoupacers]

Even with everyone healthy, the talent just isn't there right now to compete on even terms with the league's better teams. Come on now, our best guard is Dahntay freakin' Jones, and our best "big" (Murphy) has a lot of holes in his game.

Maybe Hibbert is our best frontcourt player...next year, or the year after that. Maybe Rush stops sending out warning signals that he's never going to be starter material. Maybe Dunleavy shakes off the rust and returns to being the player he was two years ago.

Based on talent, this is a lottery team unless/until those kind of things start to happen.

[Starkiller]

Not gonna get too detailed here, but I really think a lot of people overrated the "talent" on the team. I really don't think we are that talented, outside of Granger, Hibbert, Hansbrough, if they pan out.

[Miller4ever]

^^Agreed, although I do think other guys have potential. I know once Mike Dunleavy gets all the way to 30 MPG we're going to be rolling.