MVP Rankings 1.0

[HouMac]

Where do you people come up with this?

The media as in those who are actually voting for the award - the writers. LeBron is largely considered the game's best player among 'em.

[JimMurray]

^The only qualm I have with what you posted JimMurray is that

#1 - you assume Lebron produces big numbers because of Mike Brown's (Please Use More Appropriate Word) offense. But actually I think he produces in spite of the system for the most part. For example alot of times you and everyone else sees Lebron go 1 on 5 from the top of the key and still score over and over again. Against ORL in 1 game we basically just gave him the ball at the FT line and he had to score or create every single play the entire quarter against a set defense. Lebron gets VERY FEW easy baskets and yet his efficiency is still the best in the NBA.

I understand what your saying, and I feel you. But imagine putting him into a competent offensive system where he has to be superman...less. His numbers would drop...he WOULD DEFINITELY be more efficient, his assist numbers would probably drop...but the Cavs chances of winning would increase exponentially to the point where he wouldn't have to rely so much on Stats for MVP consideration. There will be times of course when sometimes it's not working, and he has to be Superman, and I understand that and Kobe does this now and again (reference last night when the Lakers fell behind 14-4 after which Kobe dropped 20 in the first quarter to get themselves back into the game). As of now, Lebrons game hasn't matured enough to the point where he can find the balance between being superman and winning....and a lot of that might be an illusion of having to play under Mike Brown's dumbass. (I swear...that guy is like Al Davis to the Raiders. The Cavs aren't winning anything until they get rid of Mike Brown.)

As for statistical arguments, the fact that Kobe's numbers are slightly less than Lebron's, does not preclude the fact that if you put Kobe in the Cavs system, Kobe's number increase two fold. Put Lebron on the Lakers and his numbers drop. My argument has always been that Kobe would do better on the Cavs because of the fact that he has mastered the balance between being Superman and winning basketball games...and that maturity would serve him well in a hypothetical where him and Lebron switched places.

I actually think operating in a system like the Triangle in a Scottie Pippen role, or a system where he shared the load with another great player like Gasol, Lebron would probably be MORE efficient and that's saying something considering he is already shooting 52% going 1 on 5 all game.

Yep...you're probably right.

#2 You assume Kobe could replicate Lebron's numbers in a similar system but I'm not so sure. Certainly I don't think he could replicate his efficiency. Kobe was in a similar "Lebron ball" system under Rudy T I believe where he dominated the ball and his turnover rate skyrocketed. Lebron I think is just flat out a better passer, just like Kobe is a flat out better shooter, it is what it is. I think in any system his assists woudl be higher due to this. I think Lebron is also a better rebounder no matter who he plays with because of his size/athleticism. CLE historically has always been near the top in terms of rebounding in prior years yet Lebron has always been around 7+ rebs. That is a physical attribute, simple as that.

I don't think Kobe would "replicate" Lebron's numbers, because they play different positions (guard / forward) and have completely different games. But he would definitely have higher numbers for what Kobe does. If you put Lebron in the Lakers system, his assists would drop, and so would his rebounds because he'd be playing with two 7 footers at all times.

[Benedict_Boozer]

They overahcieved big time last year, and they added some solid depth while not giving anything up. They have to come at least within 2-3 games of that 66-16 mark in order for LeBron to win it.

Disagree. The only win total that will be used to measure him against is Kobe's Lakers. If he is within 3-5 games of LA, it's a toss-up. Kobe has personnel and coaching advantages, that has to count for something hence the 3-5 game spread.

If he's ahead or tied in the W/L column to the Lakers, I think it favors Lebron.

[JimMurray]

They overahcieved big time last year, and they added some solid depth while not giving anything up. They have to come at least within 2-3 games of that 66-16 mark in order for LeBron to win it.

Disagree. The only win total that will be used to measure him against is Kobe's Lakers. If he is within 3-5 games of LA, it's a toss-up. Kobe has personnel and coaching advantages, that has to count for something hence the 3-5 game spread.

If he's ahead or tied in the W/L column to the Lakers, I think it favors Lebron.

I'll agree with this, but I don't think the number is 3-5...I think it's 1-2 because you have account the fact that Lebron plays in a significantly weaker conference. And it's not enough to say...well they did x, y, and z against the best teams in the West. When you play against tough competition on a regular basis, it will manifest itself in losses to silly teams.

[poopdamoop]

For those supporting LeBron right now.. You guys do realize that the Cavs are on pace for a 59-23 record right? Likely a 3rd seed in the East (Maybe even 4th)? And the Cavs schedule only gets harder. If the Cavs dont start playing better, I can promise you LeBron will not win MVP if the Cavs lose 6-7 more games than last season. Whether you think its fair or not, he wouldnt win it in that scenario.

Thats why I thought it would be so tough for him to win it this season. They overahcieved big time last year, and they added some solid depth while not giving anything up. They have to come at least within 2-3 games of that 66-16 mark in order for LeBron to win it.

You're telling me that if the Cavs win 60 games and LeBron puts up the 29/8/7 he's currently putting up, he has no chance to win MVP. That's BS.

JimMurray, Kobe cannot do what LeBron does, plain and simple. You can argue semantics all you want, but Kobe's in the perfect situation right now. You tell him to create everything for himself, he may average 35 again, but wins will go down. Heavily. The thing about LeBron's stats is that he puts up big numbers AND his team wins. When Kobe and Wade were putting up comparable numbers, their teams won about 45 games a season. If you think LeBron is hurting his team by putting up big numbers, that means you think the Cavs would be better than 17-7 by running more offense through Mo Williams and Shaq, who's post skills have diminshed to the point where he's only effective in 5 minute spurts. Thank god you're not Mike Brown.

[Dat Pass]

Where do you people come up with this?

The media as in those who are actually voting for the award - the writers. LeBron is largely considered the game's best player among 'em.

Really? Have any proof or is this just something that you made up?

I gave you an article that shows the majority (by 2-1 margin) clearly favor Kobe.

Where's your proof?

[JimMurray]

JimMurray, Kobe cannot do what LeBron does, plain and simple. You can argue semantics all you want, but Kobe's in the perfect situation right now. You tell him to create everything for himself, he may average 35 again, but wins will go down. Heavily. The thing about LeBron's stats is that he puts up big numbers AND his team wins. When Kobe and Wade were putting up comparable numbers, their teams won about 45 games a season. If you think LeBron is hurting his team by putting up big numbers, that means you think the Cavs would be better than 17-7 by running more offense through Mo Williams and Shaq, who's post skills have diminshed to the point where he's only effective in 5 minute spurts. Thank god you're not Mike Brown.

Actually...I'm arguing that Lebron can't do what Kobe does...plain and simple. And I'm not arguing semantics. And yes.....I do think the Cavs would be better than 17-7 if they implemented Mo Williams and Shaq more into the offense. You can argue that all you want...but it's truth. If Mike Brown knew this, the Cavs would be better than 17-7.

[poopdamoop]

Have you seen Shaq play? He cannot be trusted to have an offense run through him. Phoenix tried it, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Mo Williams had most of the offense run through him in Milwaukee, and they finished 26-56.

People harp on Mike Brown a lot (much of it well deserved), but his formula of great defense and LeBron's offense gets results.

[JimMurray]

Have you seen Shaq play? He cannot be trusted to have an offense run through him. Phoenix tried it, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Mo Williams had most of the offense run through him in Milwaukee, and they finished 26-56.

People harp on Mike Brown a lot (much of it well deserved), but his formula of great defense and LeBron's offense gets results.

I'm not saying run the offense "though" Shaq...I'm saying find a way to use him more effectively. I'm also not saying run the offense "through" Mo Williams...In Milwaukee he wasn't playing next to Lebron...just find a way to make him more effective. If Kobe found ways (admittedly he had Phil Jackson) to make Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Smush Parker effective, I'm sure Lebron can find ways to make Shaq effective and Mo Williams effective.

[YLSKillaCam]

Have you seen Shaq play? He cannot be trusted to have an offense run through him. Phoenix tried it, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Mo Williams had most of the offense run through him in Milwaukee, and they finished 26-56.

People harp on Mike Brown a lot (much of it well deserved), but his formula of great defense and LeBron's offense gets results.

I'm not saying run the offense "though" Shaq...I'm saying find a way to use him more effectively. I'm also not saying run the offense "through" Mo Williams...In Milwaukee he wasn't playing next to Lebron...just find a way to make him more effective. If Kobe found ways (admittedly he had Phil Jackson) to make Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Smush Parker effective, I'm sure Lebron can find ways to make Shaq effective and Mo Williams effective.

Indeed.

All these Lebron fans are making the case why Lebron IS NOT the MVP.

Look a MVP gets the job done. There's no, my teammates suck and that's why we suck argument. Part of being an MVP is making your team play up to their potential. Lead by example.

You think any of the Lakers have an excuse to take a night off when the best player in the league plays with a broken finger?

The problem with Lebron fans is that they've already decided that they want Lebron to be MVP and they'll craft whatever arguments they can to make that happen. If you step back and look at what a MVP is...

A MVP is what Lebron did last year. That's MVP worthy. Last year he was the very definition of MVP. Last year, I said Lebron was the MVP. This year so far it is Kobe pretty clearly. I don't understand why this is so difficult.

[poopdamoop]

Mo Williams is already effective, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Shaq too, when he gets position and actually tries, but he doesn't have the stamina necessary to be a constant post presence anymore. What were dunks and layups in Phoenix are now fadeaway hook shots in Cleveland. LeBron can't do anything about that.

So yeah, they're pretty efficient already. And don't give me that BS about Kobe working his magic and making those players effective, because they weren't. It's a testament to Kobe's greatness that he got to the playoffs with that cast, but he didn't do them any favors.

[poopdamoop]

Indeed.

All these Lebron fans are making the case why Lebron IS NOT the MVP.

Look a MVP gets the job done. There's no, my teammates suck and that's why we suck argument. Part of being an MVP is making your team play up to their potential. Lead by example.

You think any of the Lakers have an excuse to take a night off when the best player in the league plays with a broken finger?

The problem with Lebron fans is that they've already decided that they want Lebron to be MVP and they'll craft whatever arguments they can to make that happen. If you step back and look at what a MVP is...

A MVP is what Lebron did last year. That's MVP worthy. Last year he was the very definition of MVP. Last year, I said Lebron was the MVP. This year so far it is Kobe pretty clearly. I don't understand why this is so difficult.

So what did LeBron do last year that was so much different than this year?

Oh wait, NOTHING. What`s the difference then? Maybe it`s the three new starters, or the adjustment that comes with trading for Shaq. But they`re on pace to win 60 games regardless. How is that held against Bron?

Laker fans just jump at a chance to downplay James any chance they get. It`s pretty sad. You`ve got the best team in the league, why not just be happy with that?

[JimMurray]

Mo Williams is already effective, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Shaq too, when he gets position and actually tries, but he doesn't have the stamina necessary to be a constant post presence anymore. What were dunks and layups in Phoenix are now fadeaway hook shots in Cleveland. LeBron can't do anything about that.

So yeah, they're pretty efficient already. And don't give me that BS about Kobe working his magic and making those players effective, because they weren't. It's a testament to Kobe's greatness that he got to the playoffs with that cast, but he didn't do them any favors.

They're 17-7 after playing a ridiculously soft schedule...I'm sure after winning 66 games last year without Shaq and increased depth, they could do much better.

As far as the BS regarding Kobe's magic, it's pretty much fact. And I'm not going to argue that with you. Argue with someone else because I'm not going to waste my time.

[YLSKillaCam]

Indeed.

All these Lebron fans are making the case why Lebron IS NOT the MVP.

Look a MVP gets the job done. There's no, my teammates suck and that's why we suck argument. Part of being an MVP is making your team play up to their potential. Lead by example.

You think any of the Lakers have an excuse to take a night off when the best player in the league plays with a broken finger?

The problem with Lebron fans is that they've already decided that they want Lebron to be MVP and they'll craft whatever arguments they can to make that happen. If you step back and look at what a MVP is...

A MVP is what Lebron did last year. That's MVP worthy. Last year he was the very definition of MVP. Last year, I said Lebron was the MVP. This year so far it is Kobe pretty clearly. I don't understand why this is so difficult.

So what did LeBron do last year that was so much different than this year?

Oh wait, NOTHING. What`s the difference then? Maybe it`s the three new starters, or the adjustment that comes with trading for Shaq. But they`re on pace to win 60 games regardless. How is that held against Bron?

Laker fans just jump at a chance to downplay James any chance they get. It`s pretty sad. You`ve got the best team in the league, why not just be happy with that?

Um, big difference between being #1 seed overall and now competiting for 4th in your conference. lol.

History is the precedent. If things continue as they are now, Kobe will be MVP at season's end. Brace yourself.

[JimMurray]

So what did LeBron do last year that was so much different than this year?

Win. He finished with the best record in the NBA.

Oh wait, NOTHING. What`s the difference then? Maybe it`s the three new starters, or the adjustment that comes with trading for Shaq. But they`re on pace to win 60 games regardless. How is that held against Bron?

Whatever to any excuse you want to throw out there. As an MVP and a superior supporting cast than he had last season...it's on Lebron to figure it out.

Laker fans just jump at a chance to downplay James any chance they get. It`s pretty sad. You`ve got the best team in the league, why not just be happy with that?

I don't think anybody is downplaying James.

[poopdamoop]

Well LeBron made Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, and Sasha Pavlovic effective NBA players by that standard, so now what?

[Benedict_Boozer]

Have you seen Shaq play? He cannot be trusted to have an offense run through him. Phoenix tried it, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Mo Williams had most of the offense run through him in Milwaukee, and they finished 26-56.

People harp on Mike Brown a lot (much of it well deserved), but his formula of great defense and LeBron's offense gets results.

I'm not saying run the offense "though" Shaq...I'm saying find a way to use him more effectively. I'm also not saying run the offense "through" Mo Williams...In Milwaukee he wasn't playing next to Lebron...just find a way to make him more effective. If Kobe found ways (admittedly he had Phil Jackson) to make Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Smush Parker effective, I'm sure Lebron can find ways to make Shaq effective and Mo Williams effective.

Define effective. CLE last year won 66 games and made the ECF - can you say with a straight face CLE had more talent than LA, BOS or ORL? I think by any honest and objective measure most fans would agree CLE "over-achieved" based on their personnel and coaching limitations. Several Kobe fans have admitted as much in this thread.

CLE right now is 18-7 and a handful of games from the top seed despite Shaq missing a ton of games and Delonte West having public mental disorder issues. By any objective measure teams like LA, ORL, BOS - they STILL have more talent than CLE.

CLE is basically expected to leapfrog teams that have far more overall talent solely because of Lebron. I don't think you can label that "effectiveness", it's basically an argument that for Lebron to repeat as MVP Lebron has to over-achieve individually and with his team again.

I think you have to make that distinction because it's not like Lebron is Stephon Marbury putting up numbers on bad teams. He's putting up these numbers on contending teams.

[poopdamoop]

I personally dont give a **** whether Kobe or LeBron wins MVP, but to say there isn`t an argument for either of them is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). I`m just arguing LeBron`s case, cause God knows Kobe has enough supporters already.

[JimMurray]

Well LeBron made Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, and Sasha Pavlovic effective NBA players by that standard, so now what?

So now what? So what now? What are you talking about...back in 04/05? When the only decent team in the East was the Pistons? Please. This league is all about what have you done for me lately...and Lebron was still SWEPT in the Finals. Why even bring that up?

[poopdamoop]

You brought up what Kobe did in 05-06, how is this any different