MVP Rankings 1.0

[JimMurray]

I love Pau but did someone try to say he is the best PF in the League? Bosh, Dirk?

Somehow...whenever you ask Lebron fans, Pau becomes the best PF in the league, Bynum is the best Center in the league, D-Fish is 7 years younger, and Artest is the DPOY, and it all adds up to point out that the only reason Kobe is good is because of them.....it's magic. I'll be sure to have some conversations with them whenever we play the Celtics.

So true. And LeBrons teammates are the equivalent of a D-League team.

Its pathetic the lengths they will go to hype up LeBron. He's a great player, arguably the best in the league, why do you have to try and make Kobe look bad by pimping up his teammates WAY beyond waht they deserve? And why cant LeBron fanboys admit their team has a lot of talent?

Because it will hurt there argument!

[InBoobieWeTrust]

The biggest kick out of this thread is simply the Kobe arguers pretending they're objective and the LeBron arguers aren't, and LeBron arguers doing the same thing.( Including me at times..although I'm trying my hardest to be objective)

[JimMurray]

The biggest kick out of this thread is simply the Kobe arguers pretending they're objective and the LeBron arguers aren't, and LeBron arguers doing the same thing.( Including me at times..although I'm trying my hardest to be objective)

I have to admit...it's very difficult for me to stay objective with the barrage of unobjective Lebron fans throwing out there BS....but I'm trying.....I'm trying real hard Boobie.

[INKtastic]

I love Pau but did someone try to say he is the best PF in the League? Bosh, Dirk?

Somehow...whenever you ask Lebron fans, Pau becomes the best PF in the league, Bynum is the best Center in the league, D-Fish is 7 years younger, and Artest is the DPOY, and it all adds up to point out that the only reason Kobe is good is because of them.....it's magic. I'll be sure to have some conversations with them whenever we play the Celtics.

please don't take the statements of one person (whoever claimed Pau is the best PF), exaggerate it (I haven't seen a claim that Bynum is the best center or Artest is DPOY and I've seen Lakers fans complain about Fisher's play), and then attribute it to all cavs fans.

I've said Kobe is a very, very good player. First team all NBA good. That doesn't make him MVP. The performance gap is substantial, the record gap is minimal (2 games) and smaller when adjusted for the home vs away disparity.

You don't have to have the best record in the league to be MVP, you don't have to have your team do as well or better than the year before. It generally goes to the best player on a team with 54+ wins. There is vast array of statistical evidence that supports LeBron as the best player on a top team. And when compared to Kobe the gaps are substantial.

PER, Win Share, TS%, eFG%, assist, rebounds, FG%, 3 point FG%, points per shot attempt, etc, etc. For example, LeBron and Kobe score the same number of points, it takes Kobe 2.4 more shots to get those points.

[JimMurray]

please don't take the statements of one person (whoever claimed Pau is the best PF), exaggerate it (I haven't seen a claim that Bynum is the best center or Artest is DPOY and I've seen Lakers fans complain about Fisher's play), and then attribute it to all cavs fans.

Obviously I was kidding....it aint that serious LJ.

I've said Kobe is a very, very good player. First team all NBA good. That doesn't make him MVP. The performance gap is substantial, the record gap is minimal (2 games) and smaller when adjusted for the home vs away disparity.

I understand that Cavs fans think he's good...it just ruffles their feathers when you suggest anyone other than Lebron is MVP. And nope...the performance gap is not that substantial...and even negligible considering the roles they play for their teams.

You don't have to have the best record in the league to be MVP, you don't have to have your team do as well or better than the year before. It generally goes to the best player on a team with 54+ wins. There is vast array of statistical evidence that supports LeBron as the best player on a top team. And when compared to Kobe the gaps are substantial.

When it comes to Kobe versus Lebron...team with the better record of the two wins. This doesn't apply to anyone else.

PER, Win Share, TS%, eFG%, assist, rebounds, FG%, 3 point FG%, points per shot attempt, etc, etc. For example, LeBron and Kobe score the same number of points, it takes Kobe 2.4 more shots to get those points.

He's also a forward. Kobe's the best 2, Lebron's the best 3...period.

[Dat Pass]

The performance gap is substantial.

No its not. Stop kidding yourself. There is a reason why the majority believe Kobe is the best player in the league still. At the very worst, there is no way the gap on either side is "substantial".

[poopdamoop]

Why does a 3 game win-loss difference matter, but a decent sized gap in rebounding, assists, and scoring efficiency is thrown by the wayside.

Kobe has the better team, LeBron has the better stats. These are facts, and calling the stats gap negligible is as dumb as me saying LeBron and Kobe have the same caliber teams.

[JimMurray]

Why does a 3 game win-loss difference matter, but a decent sized gap in rebounding, assists, and scoring efficiency is thrown by the wayside.

Kobe has the better team, LeBron has the better stats. These are facts, and calling the stats gap negligible is as dumb as me saying LeBron and Kobe have the same caliber teams.

Why? Because you say it's dumb?

[poopdamoop]

Because LeBron has an advantage in literally everything. It`s a big gap, but it`s an obvious one. LeBron is simply the more productive player, and that can`t be denied. That doesn`t mean he`s better, but it`s something he has going for him.

[JimMurray]

Because LeBron has an advantage in literally everything. It`s a big gap, but it`s an obvious one. LeBron is simply the more productive player, and that can`t be denied. That doesn`t mean he`s better, but it`s something he has going for him.

Sure it can, because as has already been demonstrated he dominates the ball on every possession. Since Mike Brown is an idiot, the Cavs offense revolves around Lebron going one on five, which has the cool side effect of Lebron's numbers being inflated. The difference is that Kobe could inflate his numbers if he really wanted to and average 35 a game and do what he does. Kobe has found the balance between winning and being superman...and that is the why he's a better WINNER, than Lebron.

Spin the numbers however you want....Kobe's value to the Lakers is equal Lebron's value to the Cavs. I site the undeniable fact that neither team would win a championship without their respective players...so who the eff cares.

[poopdamoop]

So basically, LeBron only gets his numbers due to Mike Brown. It`s not like he put up great numbers before playing in Brown`s system. Or that he had the best numbers in the Olympics, playing alongside other great players and playing off the ball.

If you don`t watch the games, just admit it. Don`t regurgitate media BS and act like it`s fact.

[Dat Pass]

So basically, LeBron only gets his numbers due to Mike Brown. It`s not like he put up great numbers before playing in Brown`s system. Or that he had the best numbers in the Olympics, playing alongside other great players and playing off the ball.

If you don`t watch the games, just admit it. Don`t regurgitate media BS and act like it`s fact.

Heres my question.. If Kobe has so much more talent, like everyone is saying, than SHOULDNT his numbers drop a little bit? For example, lets say that the Cavs added Bosh and Redd to their team, wouldnt you expect that LeBrons numbers would drop? Does that suddenly make him a worse player?

[poopdamoop]

No. Nor does it make Kobe a worse player than he was when he was dropping 35 a game. People thought LeBron`s numbers would drop when Shaq was added, but his improved shooting kept his stats about the same. My point is that regardless of circumstances, his numbers are better than Kobe`s, just like Kobe`s team record is obviously better than LeBron. IMO, those two factors cancel out, and it`s a wash as to who is the MVP at this point. I`m fine with giving it to Kobe, but acting like LeBron has no case and is only considered due to his inflated stats is as (Please Use More Appropriate Word) as saying Pau Gasol is the best PF in the league.

[Dat Pass]

No. Nor does it make Kobe a worse player than he was when he was dropping 35 a game. People thought LeBron`s numbers would drop when Shaq was added, but his improved shooting kept his stats about the same. My point is that regardless of circumstances, his numbers are better than Kobe`s, just like Kobe`s team record is obviously better than LeBron. IMO, those two factors cancel out, and it`s a wash as to who is the MVP at this point. I`m fine with giving it to Kobe, but acting like LeBron has no case and is only considered due to his inflated stats is as (Please Use More Appropriate Word) as saying Pau Gasol is the best PF in the league.

Completely agree with your post. But which Laker fans think LeBron "has no case"?

Its the other way around.. LeBron fanboys thinking Kobe is far behind LeBron..

Im fine with it being a wash right now, Ive said many times this is very close right now.

[Bgil]

I think it's interesting that people only count box score stats (or some calculation thereof) as "production" or "performance". At the same time these people have no problem accepting prime Shaq's offensive performance as being greater than his stats particularly in the area of assists or the performance difference that comes from a coach making superior decisions, adjustments, or play calling. People even understand the difference between a veteran player like Fisher and a young guy whose stats are bigger than is positive presence like Smush or Zach Randolph.

But somehow, a highly detailed argument for Kobe (or Steve Nash) that goes way beyond stats falls on deaf ears. Amazing.

[poopdamoop]

I don`t know who thinks Kobe has no case. I saw one guy saying LeBron`s numbers are significantly better than Kobe`s, whish is different than calling him MVP, and the other two Cavs fans that posted here both said that Kobe is right up there with LeBron.

[JimMurray]

So basically, LeBron only gets his numbers due to Mike Brown. It`s not like he put up great numbers before playing in Brown`s system. Or that he had the best numbers in the Olympics, playing alongside other great players and playing off the ball.

If you don`t watch the games, just admit it. Don`t regurgitate media BS and act like it`s fact.

No...he gets his numbers because he's Lebron James...but the fact that Mike Brown can't figure out a better system with Lebron James INFLATES his numbers. And don't bring up the Olympics because you know good and well when s*** got real, everyone deferred to Kobe...including Lebron.

[poopdamoop]

I think it's interesting that people only count box score stats (or some calculation thereof) as "production" or "performance". At the same time these people have no problem accepting prime Shaq's offensive performance as being greater than his stats particularly in the area of assists or the performance difference that comes from a coach making superior decisions, adjustments, or play calling. People even understand the difference between a veteran player like Fisher and a young guy whose stats are bigger than is positive presence like Smush or Zach Randolph.

But somehow, a highly detailed argument for Kobe (or Steve Nash) that goes way beyond stats falls on deaf ears. Amazing.

You can make an argument for any star player that their impact goes far beyond stats. If you want to do it for Kobe, go right ahead.

[An Unbiased Fan]

There are a myriad of stats out there, there are cases for many depending on what you choose. I would say the increased efficiency of Kobe's teammates SHOULD factor in just as much as an assist or rebound. I think ball denial SHOULD be a stat but we don't register it. NBA hockey assists aren't counted, neither is there a stat for getting the ball to a teammate in the best postion for them to score. Successful boxouts aren't counted(unless you're playing NBA2k My Player, LOL), but it should just as much as boards.

The truth is that the NBA doesn't keep enough stats and should have expanded long ago. There is so much that happens which doesn't get counted or quantified. So YES, based on the point/rebounds/assist combo(and so-called "advanced" stats like PER which use them as a base), I guess you can say Lebron is ahead. But in reality, only 10-20% of what happens on the court is actually counted. This is why the Kobe vs Lebron argument gets so muddy. This is also why guys like Magic/Bird get underrated, and guys like Tmac get overrated.

[Jimmy76]

There are a myriad of stats out there, there are cases for many depending on what you choose. I would say the increased efficiency of Kobe's teammates SHOULD factor in just as much as an assist or rebound. I think ball denial SHOULD be a stat but we don't register it. NBA hockey assists aren't counted, neither is there a stat for getting the ball to a teammate in the best postion for them to score. Successful boxouts aren't counted(unless you're playing NBA2k My Player, LOL), but it should just as much as boards.

The truth is that the NBA doesn't keep enough stats and should have expanded long ago. There is so much that happens which doesn't get counted or quantified. So YES, based on the point/rebounds/assist combo(and so-called "advanced" stats like PER which use them as a base), I guess you can say Lebron is ahead. But in reality, only 10-20% of what happens on the court is actually counted. This is why the Kobe vs Lebron argument gets so muddy. This is also why guys like Magic/Bird get underrated, and guys like Tmac get overrated.

thats why I like adj +/-

its hard to tell how accurate it is right now though