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JimMurray wrote:Original Baller wrote:I hope people here understand that your arguments for MVP mean nothing because the media is the ones who decide it. I don't get why people feel the need to convince others that their position is right.
What else are we going to do at work to pretend were working?
lj4mvp wrote:Bgil wrote:I think it's interesting that people only count box score stats (or some calculation thereof) as "production" or "performance". At the same time these people have no problem accepting prime Shaq's offensive performance as being greater than his stats
What are you talking about. Shaq had some of the best statistical seasons in league history. He's #2 all time in career PER.
Bgil wrote:lj4mvp wrote:Bgil wrote:I think it's interesting that people only count box score stats (or some calculation thereof) as "production" or "performance". At the same time these people have no problem accepting prime Shaq's offensive performance as being greater than his stats
What are you talking about. Shaq had some of the best statistical seasons in league history. He's #2 all time in career PER.
That doesn't preclude his performance (read: impact) from being larger than his statistical contribution. The clearest example would be his assist totals. I think we all agree that Shaq created a lot more shot opportunities than his 2-3 apg would suggest.
lj4mvp wrote:Bgil wrote:lj4mvp wrote:
What are you talking about. Shaq had some of the best statistical seasons in league history. He's #2 all time in career PER.
That doesn't preclude his performance (read: impact) from being larger than his statistical contribution. The clearest example would be his assist totals. I think we all agree that Shaq created a lot more shot opportunities than his 2-3 apg would suggest.
Did Shaq have more impact on creating shots than his assist total would suggest? Of course
Why is that? Because he had some of the best statistical seasons in league history. i.e. he was dominant. That dominance drew attention away from teammates. That dominance also clearly showed up in the stats.
LeBronade wrote:We know the media doesn't base the MVP on stats, when Chris Paul didn't win it. The media decides a close race by things like 'career achievements' or maybe a head-to-head meeting late in the season, toss of the coin type factors. Or sometimes sympathy for the underdog/feelgood story (Nash) etc.
Definitely not stats (except for the stat of season victories)!
Bgil wrote:You keep avoiding the issue. What stats show or even remotely indicate how many easy looks and open shots his supporting cast got because of him?
What stats show how ridiculous good he made Amare look by taking away bigger defenders?
What stats show the massive difference between Smush Parker and Derek Fisher?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... i?id=dkV3I
What stats show why no one wants Zach Randolph or AI on their team?
What stats show the massive difference in play between Kobe and Vince Carter? Magic Johnson and John Stockton/Chris Paul?
What stats properly value Lamar Odom?
farzi wrote:Dude Paul deserved that. Everyone who's not deeply involved in Laker hype knows that, how can you really even argue that.
atamanbasar wrote:kobe should win MVP, he is always a good shooter though lebron is not
atamanbasar wrote:kobe should win MVP, he is always a good shooter though lebron is not
atamanbasar wrote:kobe should win MVP, he is always a good shooter though lebron is not
mysticbb wrote:Bgil wrote:You keep avoiding the issue. What stats show or even remotely indicate how many easy looks and open shots his supporting cast got because of him?
What stats show how ridiculous good he made Amare look by taking away bigger defenders?
What stats show the massive difference between Smush Parker and Derek Fisher?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... i?id=dkV3I
What stats show why no one wants Zach Randolph or AI on their team?
What stats show the massive difference in play between Kobe and Vince Carter? Magic Johnson and John Stockton/Chris Paul?
What stats properly value Lamar Odom?
It doesn't show it directly, but you can still use On/Off Court stats and adj. +/- to determine those kind of things. There are in fact several things you can't measure with simple boxscore stats or advanced boxscore stats. On/Off Court stats and adj. +/- numbers can give you a different angle to judge about players.
Some of the differences between Derek Fisher and Smush Parker which are easy to see in your link (just reading those stats, without including my knowledge about their play): Fisher seems to be the more consistent player. Playoffs and regular season stats look pretty similar for him while there is a difference for Parker. Fisher doesn't turn the ball over that often and is the way better offensive player (ORtg). Fisher also helped his teams winning more games. He earned way more Win Shares per game than Parker.
Bgil wrote:What stats show the massive difference in play between Kobe and Vince Carter?
LebronsCavs wrote:farzi wrote:Dude Paul deserved that. Everyone who's not deeply involved in Laker hype knows that, how can you really even argue that.
This. Probably the biggest robbery in recent memory.
YLSKillaCam wrote:Well we might have it wrong.
I talked to a friend of mine in the media who usually has a MVP vote. He said that Kobe would win it if the season ended today. He said there's a lot of support for Melo and said it is basically going to come down to Melo v. Kobe.
I asked about Lebron. He said Lebron would be third unless the Cavs meet the expectations of being the best team in the league. He said they didn't just add Shaq, but added a bunch of other "solid" players.
Said it was too early to predict, but it'll be close between Melo and Bryant.
I personally think Lebron and Kobe have much better cases than Melo, but it is what it is.