MVP Rankings 1.0

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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#841 » by INKtastic » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:01 pm

Original Baller wrote:I don't know how many people here actually played basketball before but in high school its was pretty easy to tell who was the best player on the court was and who had the best game WITHOUT finding the stat sheet afterwards or looking at season averages.


and typically when you did look at the stats, they confirmed what you saw. In the case of Kobe vs LeBron, there's a lot of style vs substance. Kobe has all of the footwork, all of the moves, etc, so it looks like he's better, but there's nothing to support that other than "he looks like the better player".

Somehow it's unique to Kobe that the stats don't confirm his greatness. He's the better shooter who doesn't put the ball in the basket as much. He has the better handles, but has the 2x as many ball handling turnovers. Somehow it's unique to Kobe that he looses all of his assists because "hockey assists" aren't counted (never mind that the cavs have focused on and tracked "hockey assists" for years). He doesn't get as many rebounds, but he's really the better rebounder because he's smaller. etc. etc.

The Kobe/LeBron debates aren't new, they've been on here since LeBron's rookie year. It used to be the Kobe fans rattled off the stats. I never heard of opponent's PER until it was used to prove how superior Kobe's defense is. FG% used to be used to prove he was the far better shooter. etc. etc. Each year LeBron comes back better than the year before. Each year another group of stats are mysteriously transformed from proof of superiority to meaningless things that are to be ignored.

The thing is, when various FG% stats were used to prove Kobe was a better shooter, a better 3 point shooter, etc., I accepted it and listed those things as things LeBron had to work on. He put in the work, got better, and some just want to toss aside the statistical measurements that show the improvement.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#842 » by Bgil » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:20 am

In the case of Kobe vs LeBron, there's a lot of style vs substance. Kobe has all of the footwork, all of the moves, etc, so it looks like he's better, but there's nothing to support that other than "he looks like the better player".


At this point you're clearly just ignoring evidence to confirm your bias. I'll give you an example that I give all the time so I'm sure you've heard it before: Kobe gets his stats/points/numbers playing his B or C game so lesser players on the Lakers can play their A game. In other words, he adapts to the team instead of having he team adapt to him... and it's been this way his whole career. It was particularly evident early this season when everyone marveled at how dominant Kobe was in the post and how often he seemed to want to go there. Then as soon as Gasol comes back he completely changes his game to the more perimeter oriented style that supports Gasol's A game. They could have just done what the Cavs did with Z, turn him into a jump shooter, but they didn't because that's not his A game.

It's already been shown that Kobe has a massive effect on players shooting percentages that Lebron and even MJ never had:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=928079
I believe it's because of the reason noted above.

Also, when you get into advanced statistics (meaning stats not derived from a box score) you can see some very interesting trends. For instance, Kobe Bryant has a significantly higher percentage of his assists go to dunks and "close" shots than Lebron.

2008
Lebron 35.1
Kobe 53.1%

2009
Lebron 30.8%
Kobe 46.4%

2010
Lebron 39.5%
Kobe 51.5%

From 82games.com

This corresponds to the point I made above. Kobe is getting his players dunks and layups while Lebron is getting his team jumpshots. We can assume this also means Kobe is getting more would-be assists that turn into fouls under the basket and numerous other good things that come with providing dunks and layups over lower percentage shots. I also believe this explains why the 82games passer ratings for both players are so similar (and Kobe sometimes has an advantage) despite the difference in box score stats favoring Lebron.

I could go on but I'm pretty confident that the deeper you dive into the game the more you see that Kobe is a far better player.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#843 » by LebronsCavs » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:56 am

Bgil wrote:
In the case of Kobe vs LeBron, there's a lot of style vs substance. Kobe has all of the footwork, all of the moves, etc, so it looks like he's better, but there's nothing to support that other than "he looks like the better player".


At this point you're clearly just ignoring evidence to confirm your bias. I'll give you an example that I give all the time so I'm sure you've heard it before: Kobe gets his stats/points/numbers playing his B or C game so lesser players on the Lakers can play their A game. In other words, he adapts to the team instead of having he team adapt to him... and it's been this way his whole career. It was particularly evident early this season when everyone marveled at how dominant Kobe was in the post and how often he seemed to want to go there. Then as soon as Gasol comes back he completely changes his game to the more perimeter oriented style that supports Gasol's A game. They could have just done what the Cavs did with Z, turn him into a jump shooter, but they didn't because that's not his A game.

It's already been shown that Kobe has a massive effect on players shooting percentages that Lebron and even MJ never had:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=928079
I believe it's because of the reason noted above.

Also, when you get into advanced statistics (meaning stats not derived from a box score) you can see some very interesting trends. For instance, Kobe Bryant has a significantly higher percentage of his assists go to dunks and "close" shots than Lebron.

2008
Lebron 35.1
Kobe 53.1%

2009
Lebron 30.8%
Kobe 46.4%

2010
Lebron 39.5%
Kobe 51.5%

From 82games.com

This corresponds to the point I made above. Kobe is getting his players dunks and layups while Lebron is getting his team jumpshots. We can assume this also means Kobe is getting more would-be assists that turn into fouls under the basket and numerous other good things that come with providing dunks and layups over lower percentage shots. I also believe this explains why the 82games passer ratings for both players are so similar (and Kobe sometimes has an advantage) despite the difference in box score stats favoring Lebron.

I could go on but I'm pretty confident that the deeper you dive into the game the more you see that Kobe is a far better player.


lol, this is horrible logic and its not surprising it comes from a Kobe fan. The Lakers have great finishing big men and very few if any at all good shooting guards. While the Cavs have some very capable shooters (Mo, West, Parker, Gibson) and lack good big man.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#844 » by HouMac » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:04 am

Bgil wrote:
At this point you're clearly just ignoring evidence to confirm your bias. I'll give you an example that I give all the time so I'm sure you've heard it before: Kobe gets his stats/points/numbers playing his B or C game so lesser players on the Lakers can play their A game. In other words, he adapts to the team instead of having he team adapt to him... and it's been this way his whole career.


This would have been a bit more credible IF Kobe had ALWAYS been asked to play his B or C game(how is he even playing that now? The guy leads the league in FGA). But that's not true. He's had the reign plenty of times before to do whatever he wanted. He's been in a do-it-all type role before(04-05), he's been in shoot-whenever-I-want-to roles as well. And he simply hasn't shown he's the statistically dominant phenom LeBron is. LeBron's consistent numerical edge over Kobe for YEARS cannot simply be chalked up to "different roles". Kobe's has had his opportunities numerous times and has proven time n again he's just not capable of producing like LeBron.

Also, if Kobe's superiority to LeBron lies in his ability to "adjust" and that ultimately leading to better supporting cast performance + better TEAM performance, that argument would hold more weight if Cleveland was some perennial underachieving team. Under LeBron though it's been quite the opposite. They perform upto expectations or better every season. LeBron's playing style seems to suit 'em fine.

They could have just done what the Cavs did with Z, turn him into a jump shooter, but they didn't because that's not his A game.


As opposed to posting up being Z's "A" game? Please. I can't believe you expect to get away with a Gasol-Big Z comparison here. One guy has ALWAYS been a skilled low post player and joined Kobe at the peak of his game(late 20's). Z was never some great post player to begin with, and was past his prime by the time LeBron emerged into a superstar. Pick n Pops has been his game for a while now. LeBron IS the reason why he's even managed to be as effective as he's been the last 3-4 years. Check out his production in the games LeBron's missed in his career, it's brutal. The guy lives on the open looks LeBron gets him.

Also, when you get into advanced statistics (meaning stats not derived from a box score) you can see some very interesting trends. For instance, Kobe Bryant has a significantly higher percentage of his assists go to dunks and "close" shots than Lebron.

2008
Lebron 35.1
Kobe 53.1%

2009
Lebron 30.8%
Kobe 46.4%

2010
Lebron 39.5%
Kobe 51.5%


Are you serious? These are the 3 seasons marking the Gasol transaction and Bynum's emergence. 2 of the best interior finishers/scorers in the league. LeBron hasn't had the fortune to play with big men anywhere close to being that talented. It's not possible to get a lot of dunks/layups by dishing the ball to the likes of Z, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith and Drew Gooden. I would love to see this stat for Kobe from 04-05 till 06-07. When he was w/o Shaq, Gasol and Bynum hadn't emerged yet. He did have Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm though.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#845 » by Bgil » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:38 am

LebronsCavs wrote:
lol, this is horrible logic and its not surprising it comes from a Kobe fan. The Lakers have great finishing big men and very few if any at all good shooting guards. While the Cavs have some very capable shooters (Mo, West, Parker, Gibson) and lack good big man.

In 2008 you could hardly say the Lakers lacked good shooting guards as Fisher, Farmar, Sasha, and Vlad (a forward but still relevant) shot great percentages... but I knew that was coming so I saved the best for last:

Kobe in 2005-2006: 45%
So who were the "great finishing big men" back then? Chris Mihm? Kwame Brown? Lamar Odom? Luke Walton?
As opposed to posting up being Z's "A" game? Please. I can't believe you expect to get away with a Gasol-Big Z comparison here. One guy has ALWAYS been a skilled low post player and joined Kobe at the peak of his game(late 20's). Z was never some great post player to begin with,.


bull. Z used to torch teams from post in the days before Lebron James ball domination started. Hell, every Laker fan surely remembers him torching us for 30 or so in several games. All from the post. But even if we get away from Gasol (since that seems to be a sore spot for Cavs fans) you'll see that we did the same thing for Luke Walton. Go ask the Magic fans, Suns fans, or Nuggets fans what happens when we see Walton with any kind of size advantage at the three spot... they'll all tell you the same thing: he's in the post all day.

How often did the Cavs do the same for Wally (another sore spot for Cavs fans)? Basically never. that's a pretty stark difference considering Wally is a far superior player to Luke, is a much better score, is bigger, far better in the post, and had a size advantage at the two/three much more often than Walton did.

Likewise, you can swap Gasol's name out for Mihm and it's basically the same thing. Or are you going to claim that Chris Mihm was some super skilled post player too? Hell, he moved from the post to the initiator/guard position in the early part of 2005 because of SMUSH PARKER! Kobe has moved to SF twice! Once to make room for Sasha when he was shooting well and now again to make room for Shannon Brown.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#846 » by Bgil » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:52 am

This would have been a bit more credible IF Kobe had ALWAYS been asked to play his B or C game(how is he even playing that now? The guy leads the league in FGA).


That doesn't follow logically. It's not how many shots he's taking but what shots he's taking, from where on the court, and how he's creating them.
Lebron's got Shaq on his team and he still hasn't changed his game to help out his post players. And please don't give me that crap about Shaq being old or whatever because he was an All-Star last year in Phoenix.
He's had the reign plenty of times before to do whatever he wanted. He's been in a do-it-all type role before(04-05), he's been in shoot-whenever-I-want-to roles as well.


The only time when he really done anything like that was in 2003 when Phil gave him the green light and he averaged 40ppg for an entire month. Then Shaq came out with his "If you don't feed the big dog then he won't guard the yard" crap and that ended. Even in 2006 when he averaged 35ppg, he had to make a switch from the MJ/Attacker position in the post to playing more guard/initator because Smush and Odom couldn't handle the role. That was the closest to his "A game" he's ever played for an entire season and it resulted in some absolutely ridiculous scoring feats Lebron will never touch (62 in 3, 81, 3 straight 60 point games, another 40 point month, 35ppg in a season etc). Even that wasn't his A game for the entire season (only about a month in the beginning of the season actually).
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#847 » by Bgil » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:57 am

Oh yeah, to add to the Kobe-Dunk/Close assist stats:

2006-2007 : 45.6
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#848 » by Chris Hansen » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:08 am

Ever think of the system they play in?

no, no you'd never think that.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#849 » by INKtastic » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:30 am

Bgil wrote:
2010
Lebron 39.5%
Kobe 51.5%


please think though what you are saying.

51.5% of 4.1 = 2.1
39.5% of 8.0 = 3.6

Kobe has the better post players, LeBron sets up more layups and dunk. So to correct your own conclusion

We can assume this also means LeBron is getting more would-be assists that turn into fouls under the basket and numerous other good things that come with providing dunks and layups over lower percentage shots.

As for the rest, LeBron isn't finding open jump shooters, he's finding open 3 point specialists.
Mo Williams. In Milwaukee he was .385 from 3. He's now at .443.
Anthony Parker. In Milwaukee he was .390 from 3. He's now leading the league at .500
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#850 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:31 am

LeBronade wrote:^ LeBron being the best player in the NBA doesn't guarantee he will win MVP, we've seen guys like Nash win it!


Yeah...that's pretty much why Kobe only has one...even though he should have at least two. It doesn't pay to be the best player in the league.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#851 » by RocketPower23 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:43 am

While I agree with most of what Bgil is saying, one can't ignore that Mike Brown is not exactly an expert when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. You can put some of it on LeBron not being able to adapt, but until he has some kind of offensive system that doesn't require him to Iso or go into a pick and roll, it's not fair to say he can't adjust to his teammates just yet. With that said, there has been a trend in LeBron's career when players come over to the Cavs, some of them them regress almost immediately, an example can be made this year with Shaq, whose field goal shooting is at an all time low. Just last year, Shaq's field goal percentage was the second highest of his career.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#852 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:46 am

lj4mvp wrote:[

and typically when you did look at the stats, they confirmed what you saw. In the case of Kobe vs LeBron, there's a lot of style vs substance. Kobe has all of the footwork, all of the moves, etc, so it looks like he's better, but there's nothing to support that other than "he looks like the better player".


Actually, there is also wins and losses....and 4 shiny rings. It's the same reason why hardly anybody considers Wilt the best Center, even though his numbers will never ever ever be approached by anybody. Russel, and Kareem were both better, and neither one of those guys ever approached Wilt like numbers. Box Scores never tell the whole story, and that's what you have in the Lebron versus Kobe debate. The numbers are deceiving...it always come downs to, "The numbers say Lebron, but then how come he can't do what Kobe does?" Nobody doubts that Kobe can fill up a Box Score....but he's more about winning. He learned early on that the odds of the Lakers winning go down the more he scores, with some obvious exceptions. Maybe Lebron gets there later in his career, it took Kobe a little while to figure it out...but right now, Kobe is better.


Somehow it's unique to Kobe that the stats don't confirm his greatness. He's the better shooter who doesn't put the ball in the basket as much. He has the better handles, but has the 2x as many ball handling turnovers. Somehow it's unique to Kobe that he looses all of his assists because "hockey assists" aren't counted (never mind that the cavs have focused on and tracked "hockey assists" for years). He doesn't get as many rebounds, but he's really the better rebounder because he's smaller. etc. etc.


It really isn't...look at the history of the game.

The Kobe/LeBron debates aren't new, they've been on here since LeBron's rookie year. It used to be the Kobe fans rattled off the stats. I never heard of opponent's PER until it was used to prove how superior Kobe's defense is. FG% used to be used to prove he was the far better shooter. etc. etc. Each year LeBron comes back better than the year before. Each year another group of stats are mysteriously transformed from proof of superiority to meaningless things that are to be ignored.


The fact that they've been on here since his rookie year is ridiculous. The fact that any Cleveland fans would ever argue that Lebron was better than Kobe in his ROOKIE year is incomprehensible to me.

The thing is, when various FG% stats were used to prove Kobe was a better shooter, a better 3 point shooter, etc., I accepted it and listed those things as things LeBron had to work on. He put in the work, got better, and some just want to toss aside the statistical measurements that show the improvement.


I don't want to toss that aside at all. At the same time with all the added weaponry he has on his supporting cast, especially watching what happened last year, I'd like to see him do better with it. And I think that goes for most fans.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#853 » by INKtastic » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:47 am

Bgil wrote:It's already been shown that Kobe has a massive effect on players shooting percentages that Lebron and even MJ never had:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=928079
I believe it's because of the reason noted above.


And I believe it's because of the selection of players for the comparison. As I said in that thread

lj4mvp wrote:For LeBron, you have a bunch of guys clearly on the decline when they got to cleveland - Snow, Newble, Wally, Ben Wallace, Damon, Donyell, one who injured his shooting hand when he got here - Hughes, and a couple of guys who left cleveland after their 2nd season in the league when they are expected to improve - Boozer and Brown.

You said the players can't help the respective teammates shoot better from the FT line, that is certainly true, but also supports what I just said. Look at how far off Snow, Huges, Ira, Damon fell off from the line. This is indication that their games were deteriorating in general. btw: how did you calculate teh totals at the bottom, the total FT numbers don't look right - at least for cleveland, where it pretty clearly should be red.

The first issue of including players on the decline is also a clear issue Cartwright on the Jordan list. Again look at how far off his FT shooting fell as an indication that it was diminished talent causing his numbers to drop.

There's nobody like any of those players on Kobe's list. Kwame Brown is the hardest one to figure from Kobe's list. By the time he left, the laker fans were literally booing him off the court he was playing so poorly. Yet his eFG% showed the most improvement of anyone on any list, while his FT% was horrid. I'm not sure what to make of that at all.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#854 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:49 am

Bgil wrote:At this point you're clearly just ignoring evidence to confirm your bias. I'll give you an example that I give all the time so I'm sure you've heard it before: Kobe gets his stats/points/numbers playing his B or C game so lesser players on the Lakers can play their A game. In other words, he adapts to the team instead of having he team adapt to him... and it's been this way his whole career. It was particularly evident early this season when everyone marveled at how dominant Kobe was in the post and how often he seemed to want to go there. Then as soon as Gasol comes back he completely changes his game to the more perimeter oriented style that supports Gasol's A game. They could have just done what the Cavs did with Z, turn him into a jump shooter, but they didn't because that's not his A game.


This. And it has never been more evident than this season. It's obvious.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#855 » by INKtastic » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:52 am

Bgil wrote:
At this point you're clearly just ignoring evidence to confirm your bias. I'll give you an example that I give all the time so I'm sure you've heard it before: Kobe gets his stats/points/numbers playing his B or C game so lesser players on the Lakers can play their A game. In other words, he adapts to the team instead of having he team adapt to him... and it's been this way his whole career.


And you don't think LeBron fills in gaps when players are out then gets back to his role when they return?
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#856 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:53 am

LebronsCavs wrote:
lol, this is horrible logic and its not surprising it comes from a Kobe fan. The Lakers have great finishing big men and very few if any at all good shooting guards. While the Cavs have some very capable shooters (Mo, West, Parker, Gibson) and lack good big man.


Is it horrible because you don't like it? Or is it horrible, because it's bad logic? Because all the years listed by Bgil did not include Bynum and Gasol in the post. And don't give me that garbage about lacking good a good big man. Z was MORE THAN ADEQUATE for the East.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#857 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:00 am

HouMac wrote:This would have been a bit more credible IF Kobe had ALWAYS been asked to play his B or C game(how is he even playing that now? The guy leads the league in FGA). But that's not true. He's had the reign plenty of times before to do whatever he wanted. He's been in a do-it-all type role before(04-05), he's been in shoot-whenever-I-want-to roles as well. And he simply hasn't shown he's the statistically dominant phenom LeBron is. LeBron's consistent numerical edge over Kobe for YEARS cannot simply be chalked up to "different roles". Kobe's has had his opportunities numerous times and has proven time n again he's just not capable of producing like LeBron.


He had full reign for ONE YEAR...the year he put up 35.1. He was playing injured in 04-05, and the one year when he was healthy while having virtually nobody on his team he dominated.

Also, if Kobe's superiority to LeBron lies in his ability to "adjust" and that ultimately leading to better supporting cast performance + better TEAM performance, that argument would hold more weight if Cleveland was some perennial underachieving team. Under LeBron though it's been quite the opposite. They perform upto expectations or better every season. LeBron's playing style seems to suit 'em fine.


What season...other than the year that Kobe was hurt, have the Lakers not made the playoffs? This argument fails under YOUR OWN logic. And other than that one season, the Lakers have performed at or above expectations EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

As opposed to posting up being Z's "A" game? Please. I can't believe you expect to get away with a Gasol-Big Z comparison here. One guy has ALWAYS been a skilled low post player and joined Kobe at the peak of his game(late 20's). Z was never some great post player to begin with, and was past his prime by the time LeBron emerged into a superstar. Pick n Pops has been his game for a while now. LeBron IS the reason why he's even managed to be as effective as he's been the last 3-4 years. Check out his production in the games LeBron's missed in his career, it's brutal. The guy lives on the open looks LeBron gets him.


None of what you are arguing against was actually argued by Bgil. At this point your putting the ball on a tee to try and hit a home run...and barely making it out of the infield.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#858 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:03 am

lj4mvp wrote:
Bgil wrote:
2010
Lebron 39.5%
Kobe 51.5%


please think though what you are saying.

51.5% of 4.1 = 2.1
39.5% of 8.0 = 3.6

Kobe has the better post players, LeBron sets up more layups and dunk. So to correct your own conclusion

We can assume this also means LeBron is getting more would-be assists that turn into fouls under the basket and numerous other good things that come with providing dunks and layups over lower percentage shots.

As for the rest, LeBron isn't finding open jump shooters, he's finding open 3 point specialists.
Mo Williams. In Milwaukee he was .385 from 3. He's now at .443.
Anthony Parker. In Milwaukee he was .390 from 3. He's now leading the league at .500


Actually, that speaks more to Lebron ball hogging the handling responsibilities on EVERY POSSESSION and as a result, receiving the benefit of inflated stats. Whats your point?
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#859 » by INKtastic » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:03 am

horrible because he's trying to claim 2.1 assists dunks/layups is better than 3.6 assisted dunks/layups. And the odd related claim that an assisted 2 point shot that occasionally gets an and-1 is somehow significantly better than an assisted 3 point shot. LeBron gets more of those too.
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Re: MVP Rankings 1.0 

Post#860 » by JimMurray » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:03 am

KB8MVP wrote:While I agree with most of what Bgil is saying, one can't ignore that Mike Brown is not exactly an expert when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. You can put some of it on LeBron not being able to adapt, but until he has some kind of offensive system that doesn't require him to Iso or go into a pick and roll, it's not fair to say he can't adjust to his teammates just yet. With that said, there has been a trend in LeBron's career when players come over to the Cavs, some of them them regress almost immediately, an example can be made this year with Shaq, whose field goal shooting is at an all time low. Just last year, Shaq's field goal percentage was the second highest of his career.


Thats what I said, and then a Cav fan jumped on me saying Mike Brown was just fine...so I dropped it.

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