MVP Rankings 1.0

[YLSKillaCam]

1 - kobe is no longer teh better shooter from long range - that changed mid season last year. LeBron has passed him, no regression tot he mean is going to change that.

3 - good players, but not good post scorers

5 - except that's not what happens. Cleveland plays 30 against the west, LA plays 53, cleveland does better against the west. Cleveland plays 52 vs the east, LA plays 30 against the east, Cleveland does better. This has been pretty consistent the last several years with the exception of the cavs injury riddled season of 08.

5- I was referring to last year only. 53/82 = 65% of their games vs western teams. 30/82 = 36%

HUGE difference.

[ROballer]

Cleveland does better. This has been pretty consistent the last several years with the exception of the cavs injury riddled season of 08.

so??you guys actually praise yourselfs for having a better record than the lakers in the regular season?

reality check:THAT doesn't matter,well it matters because lebron gets the MVP,which I'm sure in your mind is more important than the title

and what about the chips?where are the chips in all of those seasons in which you had a better record than us...NOWHERE

[INKtastic]

so??you guys actually praise yourselfs for having a better record than the lakers in the regular season? :lol

I'm not the one who claimed Cleveland's record is inflated because they are in the east, I simply responded to that by showing Cleveland does better against western teams than LA does. This is an easy to prove fact, but I know provable facts don't carry a lot of weight for kobe fans.

I did ask where the evidence is that Kobe is better than LeBron, though. Stats don't support that. Winning more doesn't support that. Is winning the championship last year the only thing that supports it? Does that mean LeBron was the better player as of May last year? Or that until Kobe won last year Pierce was better than Kobe?

LeBron is better right now and when the next generation looks back on the two players today, they'll wonder why there even was a debate.

[An Unbiased Fan]

so??you guys actually praise yourselfs for having a better record than the lakers in the regular season? :lol

I'm not the one who claimed Cleveland's record is inflated because they are in the east, I simply responded to that by showing Cleveland does better against western teams than LA does.

I did ask where the evidence is that Kobe is better than LeBron, though. Stats don't support that. Winning more doesn't support that. Is winning the championship last year the only thing that supports it? Does that mean LeBron was the better player as of May last year? Or that until Kobe won last year Pierce was better than Kobe?

LeBron is better right now and when the next generation looks back on the two players today, they'll wonder why there even was a debate.

The Cavs have beaten only ONE 50 win team in the playoffs in the 7 years Lebron had been there, just ONE. Think about that for a second. Kobe last year alone had to lead the Lakers through three 50 win teams in a row to win the title. In 08', Kobe led the Lakers past 3 50 win teams to the Finals.

So when we compare the two players in this regard, we see that Kobe has had a MUCH tougher road than Lebron and still has outperformed him. Lebron had a 66 win team, HCA, and a tired Magic team without their all-star PG, yet still went down in 6 games.

Further, Players are utilized fully next to Kobe, while they are under-untilized next to Lebron. Truth be told, even Cavs fans don't really know who would be great playiing next to Bron. His game isn't very adaptable, and to me, that makes his value lower. Put this year's Shaq in place of Bynum on the Lakers, and he would still be shooting 56%+ FG like in PHX. Bynum on the other hand, would be called a stiff, and blamed for their shortcomings like Mo Williams was last year. Why? Because the NBA is a TEAM game, and the individual stats never trump TEAM STATS.

Give me a guy who improves the overall TEAM, over a guy who mostly improve his own stats.

[Bgil]

typical Kobe fan boy. I never once said Kobe was bad. Do you not think he has a great supporting cast? Name me a superstar in the last 15 years with a better supporting cast.

Nobody is arguing the fact that the Lakers have the best supporting cast in the League. I will give props to Lebron in one area however. His shooting has improved dramatically over last season.

Riddle me this Batman....

Could that be because contrary to popular belief (in Cleveland), he actually has a pretty damn good supporting cast himself in relation to his competition in the East? Actually, don't answer that. I already know what your going to say and it revolves around the increased work that Lebron put in over the off-season...it has nothing to do with the off-season additions made over the summer.

Actually the supporting cast has gotten worse IMO. With Z declining and Delonte out/not the same as he was last year (arguably the Cavs 2nd best player last season). People forget what Delonte brings to the table. He does a bit of everything and usually guards the opponents best 2 guard/pg/

The cast hasn't gotten worse overall it just fits together much worse than last season. I believe Leon Powe will help you guys out a lot once he gets acclimated.

[Bgil]

Wow, they went out and bought some three point specialists to fit in with Lebron's game instead of him changing his game to fit in with the talent they already had... how does that address my point? Oh yeah, it doesn't... they still turned Z into a 7 foot 3 inch outside shooter. Hate to break it to you but if Z played for the Lakers he'd be in the post a lot more than he is in Cleveland even if it meant sacrificing part of Kobe's game to do so.

The season before LeBron arrived, 66% of Z's shots were jumpers and he was an all star. This year 65% of his shots are jumpers. LeBron didn't turn Z into a jump shooter, the pick and pop is Z's bread and butter.

You're using a hammer to swat a fly. What constitutes a jumper? NBA Hotspots is much more revealing.
2004:


2005:


And now after LBJ ball domination:

2009:


Notice that his number of shots close to the basket don't differ much from Pau Gasol (a good post player):

[Greatness]

As of today:

1) Kobe
2) Lebron
3) Dirk
4) Melo
5) Nash

+1

[Doctor MJ]

Thats basically what I've been saying since page 10. This is also why the Lebron is better because of his stats arguments don't work.

Have no idea if you've spoken on this, since I haven't been following the thread closely but: The argument that the box score stats overrate LeBron's impact compared to Kobe would hold a lot more water if the +/- stats clearly showed something different, but they don't (I'll refrain from going into detail there, suffice to say Kobe is by no means a bad player by +/-). An argument that Kobe is the clear best player in the game can't even rely on the impact he has on his teammates when he's on the court, you have to start talking about off court stuff to even be coherent.

Personally I think the two of them are neck and neck for the MVP right now, but the statistical arguments for LeBron are legitimate.

[Bgil]

yeah right...listen,why don't you go make another thread about how good the lakers supporting cast is and how bad kobe is ....you're good at that/NOT

typical Kobe fan boy. I never once said Kobe was bad. Do you not think he has a great supporting cast? Name me a superstar in the last 15 years with a better supporting cast.

The Magic have 4 All-Stars and solid bench players at every positions. The Suns had All-Star Shaq, Amare, Barbosa, Nash, Hill, and J-Rich. Dallas had Dirk, Finley, Nash, Howard, Daniels, Walker, and Jamison.
2 years ago the C's had Allen, KG, PP, Rondo, Perkins, Powe, House, PJ Brown, and Posey. Even the Laker team was better and deeper when healthy. Turiaf and Vlad left and the Lakers basically got nothing in return (Shannon brown doesn't count lol). Sasha, Farmar, and Fisher were also playing MUCH better.

And hell 15 years beings us back to 1994, right? Some of those Blazer and Laker teams were stacked back in the day. Not to mention the 72 win Bulls with MJ, Scottie, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr, Harper etc.

[CzBoobie]

The Cavs have beaten only ONE 50 win team in the playoffs in the 7 years Lebron had been there, just ONE. Think about that for a second.

And they lost to two champions, one of them a 66-win team, to a 64-win team and a 59-win team...all of them better than anything Kobe had to through in the West in those last two years. Think about this for a second.

[YLSKillaCam]

yeah right...listen,why don't you go make another thread about how good the lakers supporting cast is and how bad kobe is ....you're good at that/NOT

typical Kobe fan boy. I never once said Kobe was bad. Do you not think he has a great supporting cast? Name me a superstar in the last 15 years with a better supporting cast.

The Magic have 4 All-Stars and solid bench players at every positions. The Suns had All-Star Shaq, Amare, Barbosa, Nash, Hill, and J-Rich. Dallas had Dirk, Finley, Nash, Howard, Daniels, Walker, and Jamison.
2 years ago the C's had Allen, KG, PP, Rondo, Perkins, Powe, House, PJ Brown, and Posey. Even the Laker team was better and deeper when healthy. Turiaf and Vlad left and the Lakers basically got nothing in return (Shannon brown doesn't count lol). Sasha, Farmar, and Fisher were also playing MUCH better.

And hell 15 years beings us back to 1994, right? Some of those Blazer and Laker teams were stacked back in the day. Not to mention the 72 win Bulls with MJ, Scottie, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr, Harper etc.

Yeah, KG clearly has a better supporting cast or Pierce depending on who you think is the leader of that team.

Shaquille clearly

Jordan clearly

Chris Webber's squad in 2002. He had a better supporting cast even though didn't win the championship.

I could go on and on.

[Bgil]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. As far as team records go, the Lakers played a much more difficult schedule than the Cavs last season AND did far better against top teams.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nba0809.htm

The Lakers played the most games, most wins, and the least losses against the top 10 and top 16.

[LebronsCavs]

yeah right...listen,why don't you go make another thread about how good the lakers supporting cast is and how bad kobe is ....you're good at that/NOT

typical Kobe fan boy. I never once said Kobe was bad. Do you not think he has a great supporting cast? Name me a superstar in the last 15 years with a better supporting cast.

The Magic have 4 All-Stars and solid bench players at every positions. The Suns had All-Star Shaq, Amare, Barbosa, Nash, Hill, and J-Rich. Dallas had Dirk, Finley, Nash, Howard, Daniels, Walker, and Jamison.
2 years ago the C's had Allen, KG, PP, Rondo, Perkins, Powe, House, PJ Brown, and Posey. Even the Laker team was better and deeper when healthy. Turiaf and Vlad left and the Lakers basically got nothing in return (Shannon brown doesn't count lol). Sasha, Farmar, and Fisher were also playing MUCH better.

And hell 15 years beings us back to 1994, right? Some of those Blazer and Laker teams were stacked back in the day. Not to mention the 72 win Bulls with MJ, Scottie, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr, Harper etc.

Stop humoring me. Scottie, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper > Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest? Maybe if we are in lala land. The other supporting casts aren't even worth responding to. I also realized that the other Laker poster on this page is clearly a troll and trying to bait and is not worthy of a response.

[Bgil]

The Cavs have beaten only ONE 50 win team in the playoffs in the 7 years Lebron had been there, just ONE. Think about that for a second.

And they lost to two champions, one of them a 66-win team, to a 64-win team and a 59-win team...all of them better than anything Kobe had to through in the West in those last two years. Think about this for a second.

Think about what? The Lakers didn't lose to anyone last season including the team that smoked the Cavs.

That Detroit (59 wins) team was not better than Utah. They only won more games because Utah went 5-11 in December.

But all of this is just a strawman anyway. Your claim was about Lebron performing better in the playoffs. The teams they beat couldn't make he playoffs in the West (with one exception)... yes LBJ balled against them BFD. They still got destroyed by Orlando and San Antonio. And Lebron played like crap against the Spurs and Celtics (much worse than Kobe ever has).

[CzBoobie]

I haven't claimed anything.

Much worse than Kobe ever did? I'll give you the Spurs series, 22-year-old LeBron whose starting SG and PF were some of the worst current players in the NBA and PG was a 2nd round rookie.

Boston series? Yeah, aside the terrible first game (in which Paul Pierce scored 4 points on 2-14 shooting btw) he didn't play any worse than Kobe against Detroit. And last three games LeBron went for 35, 32 and 45.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The Cavs have beaten only ONE 50 win team in the playoffs in the 7 years Lebron had been there, just ONE. Think about that for a second.

And they lost to two champions, one of them a 66-win team, to a 64-win team and a 59-win team...all of them better than anything Kobe had to through in the West in those last two years. Think about this for a second.

First, I said ALL 7 of the years Lebron has played, not just the last two. Lebron has only beaten ONE 50 win team his ENTIRE career in the playoffs.

Second, the Cavs had HCA last year and the BEST record, yet he still didn't lead them into the Finals, much less a title.

Third, the West is MUCH more competitive so they don't have many teams that can win 60 games out there. However, you almost have to win 50 just to make the postseason out there.

[CzBoobie]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

[Bgil]

Stop humoring me. Scottie, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper > Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest? Maybe if we are in lala land. The other supporting casts aren't even worth responding to. I also realized that the other Laker poster on this page is clearly a troll and trying to bait and is not worthy of a response.

WTF?

Second star: Scottie Pippen > Gasol
Bench Point Forward: Kukoc > Odom
Crazy and Deranged defensive presence: Rodman > Artest
Center: Longley < Bynum
Kerr > Fisher, Farmar, Sasha, Brown
Harper was better than any swingman on our team not named Kobe. Don't forget the guy was a 20ppg scorer prior to coming to the Bulls. He was basically the Jamal Crawford of his day.

The only matchup the Lakers win is with Bynum. So that's 5 to 1.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Last year he had the better team, and couldn't even reach the Finals to meet Kobe.

Team can't be an excuse when he lost to a Magic team missing their all-star PG, AND had HCA.

[CzBoobie]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Last year he had the better team, and couldn't even reach the Finals to meet Kobe.

Team can't be an excuse when he lost to a Magic team missing their all-star PG, AND had HCA.

lol