MVP Rankings 1.0

[doozyj]

Actually the supporting cast has gotten worse IMO. With Z declining and Delonte out/not the same as he was last year (arguably the Cavs 2nd best player last season). People forget what Delonte brings to the table. He does a bit of everything and usually guards the opponents best 2 guard/pg/

Bullsh**.

[JimMurray]

I'm not the one who claimed Cleveland's record is inflated because they are in the east, I simply responded to that by showing Cleveland does better against western teams than LA does. This is an easy to prove fact, but I know provable facts don't carry a lot of weight for kobe fans.

Oh...I'm claiming that...and I'll claim that all day. Any good team in the east will have their record inflated this season by virtue of playing in a terrible conference. Please engage me on this...I'd love to hear you try to wiggle you're way out of this one. Furthermore...please use the Cav's record against the West as a point of reference...I got something for you.

I did ask where the evidence is that Kobe is better than LeBron, though. Stats don't support that. Winning more doesn't support that. Is winning the championship last year the only thing that supports it? Does that mean LeBron was the better player as of May last year? Or that until Kobe won last year Pierce was better than Kobe?

What the eff are you talking about? Lebron was never the better player. Nothing about last season did anything to change that. Aside from the majority of NBA folks saying Kobe is the better all around player, and all the offensive stuff aside, Lebron isn't even in the same ball park with Kobe defensively this year...not even close. He toned it up for one season last year and has actually regressed, despite having a better defensive team around him.

I've said it once...and I'll repeat myself...The fact that Lebron has a higher PER does not presuppose that he is better than Kobe. The fact that Melo is leading the league in scoring does not presuppose that he is a better scorer than Kobe and Lebron. As far as all around game, and player you would want to win one game where your life is on the line....the majority take Kobe. That's just how it is.

Here is VISUAL evidence....equal supporting casts, crunch time situation...both players going one on one to win the game for their team.....

Watch the whole thing, but fast forward to 5:03 for the good part.

Also, since your so hung up on stats...riddle me this batman....Is Marreese Speights better than Dwight Howard? Answer that question....carefully.

LeBron is better right now and when the next generation looks back on the two players today, they'll wonder why there even was a debate.

Actually they won't, because Kobe will have 5 or 6 rings and Lebron won't.

[JimMurray]

Thats basically what I've been saying since page 10. This is also why the Lebron is better because of his stats arguments don't work.

Have no idea if you've spoken on this, since I haven't been following the thread closely but: The argument that the box score stats overrate LeBron's impact compared to Kobe would hold a lot more water if the +/- stats clearly showed something different, but they don't (I'll refrain from going into detail there, suffice to say Kobe is by no means a bad player by +/-). An argument that Kobe is the clear best player in the game can't even rely on the impact he has on his teammates when he's on the court, you have to start talking about off court stuff to even be coherent.

Personally I think the two of them are neck and neck for the MVP right now, but the statistical arguments for LeBron are legitimate.

I'd give the +/- argument more merit if Lebron didn't play in the East. When you play tougher competition on a nightly basis, the +/- doesn't tend to be as high.

[JimMurray]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Give me a break. Put Lebron in the West with Kwame, Odom, Smush, and Walton...with a bench consisting of Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, Ronny Turiaf, Farmar, and Sasha...and tell me how he does. And I don't mean the current west...I mean THAT west...possibly the greatest conference in the history of the NBA.

[JimMurray]

When a player goes 38/8/8 and his team loses, OBVIOUSLY supporting cast is a major question. There is a difference between getting upset like, and getting upset Dirk-Golden State style.

Not obviously.....Maybe if Lebron had those guys thinking about basketball rather than playing flag football in practice and holding photoshoots before the game, the outcome would have been different.

[JimMurray]

Haha I see all the Kobe trolls are out.

And what are you? The Lebron trolls live here.

[JimMurray]

This really has got to suck for Kobe fans. After all his hard work this offseason, and his great play on the court, he's still getting completely dominated by The King by all statistical metrics out there. His significantly more talented team is only 2 games ahead in the standings despite playing the softest schedule in the league. No wonder the fanboys sound so frustrated. They have pretty much nothing tangible to point to somehow make an argument for Kobe>LeBron.

Pretty much the entire basketball world believes Kobe is better than Lebron and that Kobe is player of the decade. He'll add an MVP this season and perhaps another ring.

None of the statistics in the world matter more than the rings on Kobe's fingers.

WTF are you talking about....Lebron is OBVIOUSLY better.....just look at his PER, eFG% and win shares...who cares what anyone in the NBA thinks!

[JimMurray]

Look at the Cavs schedule..

They have @Suns, @Kings, @Lakers, Rockets, @Hawks and Hawks.

Even if they manage to go 4-2 in that stretch (24-10), they would still only be on pace for a 57-25 season. 9 wins less than last season. I think its going to be extremely difficult for LeBron to win it this season.

It's not happening....unless he starts playing more like Kobe (smarter). OUCH!

[JimMurray]

From an MVP perspective this C-mas day game will be big. Writers will be watching that. I think the winner/best performer in that game will build alot of MVP momentum.

Can not wait...all Lebron fans are invited to my house...Drinks on me. I will happily eat crow if Cleveland win. I actually went to this game last year when it was in L.A., but this year I'm watching it on the big screen.

[doozyj]

Jim Murray, I totally agree with you on almost all aspects but 6 posts in a row bro! If that isn't commitment to RealGM then I don't know what is.

EDIT: Holy crap make that 8 posts in a row!

[JimMurray]

As far as Xmas day,

I think the Cavs actually have a really good shot if Phil keeps Artest on Lebron. I have a feeling Artest will overplay him and Lebron will burn him over and over. Kobe tends to play him very conservatively and it usually works pretty well (he locked him down twice last year). If Mo gets as hot as he has in certain games this season then we may be in trouble.

More likely, Cleveland stomped similar to last season if not worse. Kobe dislocated his finger a minute into the first game and was sick as a dog and on an IV during the second game.

Honestly...I'd rather see Kobe on Lebron. He shut him down both times last season. I wouldn't mind starting Artest on Lebron...but if it's not happening, make the switch early.

[JimMurray]

You act like a lot of people on this site don't watch Kobe/Lebron play. Lebron has a bigger impact on the game. Period.

LOL

If he had a bigger impact on the game, it would have been Lakers Cavs in the finals last year. Period.

[JimMurray]

Teammates play a factor too.

Teammates only go as far as their leader takes them.

[Inhuman]

Jim Murray, I totally agree with you on almost all aspects but 6 posts in a row bro! If that isn't commitment to RealGM then I don't know what it.

EDIT: Holy crap make that 8 posts in a row!

i agree with him as well.
I think he leaves for a while and he responds to all the new "scewed" posts since he last posted.
keep telling it like is

[JimMurray]

Moon has been excellent. Actually what's funny is, in virtually all of our losses Moon has been out with injury. Without him Lebron is the only CLE player who can match up to taller/athletic wings, the same flaw that got us taken out against ORL.

Parker is leading the NBA in 3pt % at over 50% - but age/declining athleticism are minimizing his impact. He's at that 34/35 year old range where guys start to drop off.

Booz...you are by far my favorite Cleveland poster.

[JimMurray]

It's actually a really easy argument to make.

If you want the guy who literally does EVERYTHING for his team better than anybody else - pick LeBron.

If you want the guy who is going to win for you every time with that iceinhisveins lastseconddaggershot - pick Kobe.

Personally, I'd rather have the well-rounded team that has the guy who finishes EVERY TIME.

Yep.

[JimMurray]

Actually the supporting cast has gotten worse IMO. With Z declining and Delonte out/not the same as he was last year (arguably the Cavs 2nd best player last season). People forget what Delonte brings to the table. He does a bit of everything and usually guards the opponents best 2 guard/pg/

Bullsh**.

Its true. Today Delonte played meaningful minutes and played like he did last year. Result? Blow out win in Phoenix, their first home loss. The Cavs really need Delonte to be back to his form of last year.

I'll give you Delonte, because the man obviously had some issues earlier...but you can't tell me that the players you guys added while losing no one makes the supporting cast worse. I'm starting to change my opinion on Shaq however. You guys play better without him.

[JimMurray]

Jim Murray, I totally agree with you on almost all aspects but 6 posts in a row bro! If that isn't commitment to RealGM then I don't know what is.

EDIT: Holy crap make that 8 posts in a row!

My bad...I've been gone since Saturday and had to play some catch up.

Finished now.

[LebronsCavs]

Thats basically what I've been saying since page 10. This is also why the Lebron is better because of his stats arguments don't work.

Have no idea if you've spoken on this, since I haven't been following the thread closely but: The argument that the box score stats overrate LeBron's impact compared to Kobe would hold a lot more water if the +/- stats clearly showed something different, but they don't (I'll refrain from going into detail there, suffice to say Kobe is by no means a bad player by +/-). An argument that Kobe is the clear best player in the game can't even rely on the impact he has on his teammates when he's on the court, you have to start talking about off court stuff to even be coherent.

Personally I think the two of them are neck and neck for the MVP right now, but the statistical arguments for LeBron are legitimate.

I'd give the +/- argument more merit if Lebron didn't play in the East. When you play tougher competition on a nightly basis, the +/- doesn't tend to be as high.

You realize the East was better than the West last year right?

[JimMurray]

You realize the East was better than the West last year right?

LebronCavs....I love you.

But you're not allowed to make stuff up.