Pau Gasol vs. Kevin McHale

[sp6r=underrated]

I see your point, but I would at least give him the nod in 1986 and 1988. I admit I have homer glasses on, though Either way, I don't see that much difference between Gasol and McHale.

I'll admit I'm a McHale skeptic who rates him lower than the vast majority of basketball experts. You are absolutely right that its close between McHale and Gasol. I completely understand why someone would prefer McHale's defense and scoring to Gasol's passing and rebounding.

[JordansBulls]

That is the worst list I have ever read. Kevin McHale made one all nba team and he's now the 26th best player of all time. LOL


The vast majority of people do no consider McHale a player in the 25-30 range.

I didn't say the list was perfect but it does show that Mchale gets the nod for being top 25-30.

No it doesn't. Citing a crappy list does not prove your point that McHale is considered top 25-30.

I can't believe how underrated Mchale is now.

[sp6r=underrated]

I can't believe how underrated Mchale is now.

This statement would make sense if he was considered a top 10 player in the league for a long stretch of his career. All of the players in the top 40 had stretches of their career when they were considered top 10 players. Kevin McHale only had one season when he was considered top 10.

Its not us who are underrating him, its you who are engaging in revisionist history.

[Point forward]

If there are two words to describe McHale, one is "efficient", and the other word is "sidekick".

That makes him hard to evaluate. He was hi efficient but lo volume, never superstar but a bona fide star, had a hi 1 year peak but had a short career, and had obvious not-so-great points but also superb intangibles - which makes him even harder to evaluate. He was one cog (not the biggest, but a big cog) on one of the greatest teams ever.

IMHO, Pau is as close to Kevin as he can get. Detractors will always say that "McHale is just good b/c of Bird", and "Pau is only good b/c of Kobe", and fans will say "McHale made Bird shine", and "Pau makes Kobe shine". Not much difference either way. I still say McHale slightly edges Gasol (better D, better low post game), but Gasol could certainly attack him if he STAYS HEALTHY.

[sp6r=underrated]

If there are two words to describe McHale, one is "efficient", and the other word is "sidekick".

That makes him hard to evaluate. He was hi efficient but lo volume, never superstar but a bona fide star, had a hi 1 year peak but had a short career, and had obvious not-so-great points but also superb intangibles - which makes him even harder to evaluate. He was one cog (not the biggest, but a big cog) on one of the greatest teams ever.

IMHO, Pau is as close to Kevin as he can get. Detractors will always say that "McHale is just good b/c of Bird", and "Pau is only good b/c of Kobe", and fans will say "McHale made Bird shine", and "Pau makes Kobe shine". Not much difference either way. I still say McHale slightly edges Gasol (better D, better low post game), but Gasol could certainly attack him if he STAYS HEALTHY.

Good post, I agree with all of this. Players like McHale raise in interesting argument when ranking players all time.

Player A: Capable of being the best player on a 50 win team but not good enough to lead a team to a championship nor capable of playing a sidekick role.

Player B: Not capable of being the best player on a team that accomplishes anything but excellent as the sidekick on a championship team

I've never fully resolved who deserves to be ranked higher in this situation.

[Warspite]

That is the worst list I have ever read. Kevin McHale made one all nba team and he's now the 26th best player of all time. LOL

I also don't really see Kevin in the Top 30 (that would be the same level as Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Clyde Drexler, and I don't see it that way), but All-NBA Teams only had 2 teams back then. If you consider that Bird, Erving, Barkley, Karl Malone and Wilkins clogged up the F spots, you see why McHale only made one All-NBA team. IMHO, McHale would have made 6+ All-NBA Third Teams if that squad had already existed.

I'm going to have to disagree here. I don't think McHale would have made 6+ all nba teams. I'm going to use 84 (I know you know but for those who don't the 84 season was his break out year) on to prove my point. The players I list in each spot are players who had very good claims to ahead of McHale and also failed to make the all-nba first or second team.

1984: Mark Aguirre (29.5, 5.9, 4.5 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
Marques Johnson (20.7, 6.5, 4.3, [received MVP votes which McHale did not])

McHale stats 18.8, 7.4, 1.3

1985: Alex English: (27.9, 5.7, 4.2 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
Dominique Wilkins: (27.4, 6.9, 2.4 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
Paul Pressey: (16.4, 5.1, 6.8 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])

McHale stats 19.8, 9.0, 1.8

1986: Terry Cummings (19.8, 8.5, 2.4 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
James Worthy (20, 5.2, 2.7 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
Buck Williams (15.9, 12.0, 1.6 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])

McHale 21.3, 8.1, 2.7

1987: McHale, in his fluke season plays out of his mind and makes all nba first team this year

1988: Alex English (25.0 4.7, 4.7 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
Aguirre: (25.1, 5.6, 3.6 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])
Buck Williams: (18.3, 11.9, 1.6 [received MVP votes which McHale did not])

McHale: 22.6, 8.4, 2.7

1989: NBA added all nba thirds this year and McHale never makes it

In short, I don't see how its possible to believe he would have made 6+ all nba teams. Best case scenario he makes two teams.

This ignores the fact that making all nba third team in a 30 team league is a lot more impressive than making an all nba third team in a 23 league.

Did you ever stop to realise that not only would Gasol not reach any all NBA teams but most likely Gasol never makes an allstar team in the 80s?

[sp6r=underrated]

Did you ever stop to realise that not only would Gasol not reach any all NBA teams but most likely Gasol never makes an allstar team in the 80s?

On your all-nba point:

I don't see any relevance to the point that Gasol wouldn't have made all nba teams in the 80s in a comparison with McHale who only made one. That makes them close to equal in that area.

Second your comment makes no sense in the context of my conversation with point forward. He argued that McHale would have made 6+ all nba third teams. My post attempted to persuade him that he was wrong on this point (which he admittted I was right).

On your all-star point

Its actually harder to make an all star team in a 30 team league than in a 23 team league. Of course, you are going to fall back on your standard argument that players in the 1980s were much better than players today. Since I think you are wrong

[andykeikei]

Found this on LG, I think its pretty funny

Even in his prime, McHale was butt ugly so I give Pau the edge in "scoring".

/thread

[Bwelc679]

Gasol is not only the better player but also the better post up player.

I was casually doing some player comparisons while adjusting my best power forwards opinion when I came across this old gem.

I know I'm notorious for bumping old threads and this comment is 15 years old but God damn this was too terrible of a take to just drive by with the windows shut.

If by "better post up player" you are insinuating that Pau is better at scoring with his back to the basket than this is where you couldn't be farther from the truth. The efficiency that Mchale was able to maintain while scoring over 20ppg is ridiculous especially when you consider he averaged 25 in the playoffs twice and 26ppg his peak season at that same ridiculous 60% level. An untimely injury cut that peak short but nobody outside of Dream has come even remotely close to his skill level of footwork and pump fakes for 30 plus years. Imagine him playing in an era where the paint isn't packed with 3 bigs for the majority of each shot clock.

If you want to make the claim that Pau was the better player overall, I have no problem with that take because they are very close and Pau is a superior passer so maybe you value playmaking more than some.

Personally, I think Mchale is just as good as a rebounder although his numbers are slightly lower due to playing with Bird and Parrish.
As far as defense goes, they are similar as rim protectors and the difference in eras make it very hard to make accurate comparisons but Mchale has experience guarding lots of athletic forwards like Dominique Wilkins, B.King, Worthy etc. due to Bird being better suited to guard slower 4's. Mchale was far from an elite perimeter defender but he was competent which leads me to believe he was an overall more useful defender than Pau who often got cooked in PnR coverage.

Give Mchale some hyperdunks or anything other than those bulky Converse Weapons and he probably does better

Usually when I bump old threads it gets the conversation rolling again so I'm looking forward to hearing some updated takes

[SportsGuru08]

McHale was more consistent in the post and as a defender while Gasol was a slightly better rebounder and passer.

That said, Gasol wasn't as bad defensively as he's made out to be. At least not in his Lakers tenure; he did much better job defensively on Dwight Howard than Cleveland's three-headed monster and he also defended Garnett pretty well in both Finals matchups.

[McBubbles]

McHale was more consistent in the post and as a defender while Gasol was a slightly better rebounder and passer.

That said, Gasol wasn't as bad defensively as he's made out to be. At least not in his Lakers tenure; he did much better job defensively on Dwight Howard than Cleveland's three-headed monster and he also defended Garnett pretty well in both Finals matchups.

At his best Gasol wasn't just not bad defensively, he was actually pretty good. I'd say he sneaked in to the top 5 defensively at his position.

Him being stereotyped in the ways that white European NBA players are often stereotyped (soft and unathletic) is probably what leads to his defence being underrated.

[Bwelc679]

I agree with all of that and I would even say at the very end of his prime in Chicago he paired quite well with Joakim as a secondary and sometimes primary rim protector.

He's also great as an offensive player but I don't think he's in the same conversation as McHale whose ability to score in the post would be similar to what Giannis has been the last few years although in a completely different style.

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