The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[nate33]

I agree with Pradamaster. There is no magic roster rotation that would have squeezed a lot more wins out of this rotation. The bottom line is that we were terrible in the first 12 games because Arenas wasn't himself and Jamison was out. There was no magic formula to fix that. We sucked.

Since then, we've been frustratingly inconsistent, but somewhat better. We're 7-9 in our past 16 games on our point differential is actually +3 net if you ignore the hapless effort in the Phoenix b2b 26 point blowout.

I think Flip is starting to get through to some of these guys. Arenas is definitely coming around on offense and adapting to his system (though his defense remains terrible). Butler is gradually getting better. Young is playing the right way with good D and less shot attempts. Haywood has been good all year. DMac has played well lately. Boykins is doing his thing.

The biggest problem appears to be Jamison. He just doesn't get it on defense and probably never will. And as a side-effect, Blatche has played worse because he is demoralized after his good play resulted in fewer minutes.

As Wiznasty points out, the solution is to trade Jamison. The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned. Trading Jamison will be a big step toward improving the defensive attitude on the team. It'll certainly mean a drop-off in offense, but it won't be as bad as the first 9 games because Arenas is now on track and Butler is playing a bit better. The return of Miller will help us offensively as well.

I'd love to see us trade Jamison + Foye for Z + Powe. It'll give us a cheap young bruiser next year (and maybe as soon as the all star break) to help with the rebuild process. It also maximizes the 125% exemption and saves us $2.8M immediately ($5.6M after luxtax). And it opens up a ton of trade options later this year.

Pull the trigger Ernie! With the addition of Powe, you'll save face because you can claim you are adding a good young big with potential. (Powe posted a PER of 14.6, 20.9 and 17.2 in his first 3 seasons. The man can definitely play assuming he recovers fully from his injury.)

[LyricalRico]

I'd love to see us trade Jamison + Foye for Z + Powe.

Yep, I proposed the same thing in the trade thread last week (although my deal also included a CLE first). That's just the sort of "addition by subtraction" move that could turn this thing around. Just think of the messages it would send. First, notice to the vets that you need to buy-in or get shipped out. And second, to the young guys that this is not a vets only operation and they are now going to get a chance with one of the Big Three gone.

[nate33]

I'd love to see us trade Jamison + Foye for Z + Powe.

Yep, I proposed the same thing in the trade thread last week (although my deal also included a CLE first). That's just the sort of "addition by subtraction" move that could turn this thing around. Just think of the messages it would send. First, notice to the vets that you need to buy-in or get shipped out. And second, to the young guys that this is not a vets only operation and they are now going to get a chance with one of the Big Three gone.

Yeah. Full credit to you for the trade. It's my favorite tweak of the AJ for Z concept. Powe is a better asset than the #25 pick in the draft. And by unloading Foye, we save $5.6M immediately. Cleveland does it because Powe has no role on a team with Shaq, Andy and Z clogging up the middle. And they can use Foye since West has been so flakey.

And don't overlook the way it can allow EG to save face. Powe might turn out to be a damn good big man. I don't know if he's a full time starter, but he can certainly play 20-30 minutes a game as the muscle to complement Blatche and McGee's finesse games.

[closg00]

Good, at-least there is agreement about trading Jamison

[Astonished]

I'd love to see us trade Jamison + Foye for Z + Powe.

This.

[GhostsOfGil]

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wireta ... m_project/

once again, its not flip imo, its the players

[Ruzious]

I'm going to be a hypocrite again - but to stop trade talk here. Cleveland is not going to trade us Z for Jamison. It's not going to happen. They're a half game behind Boston in the East - with Z on the team. His +/- is far better than Shaq's. Varejao fits very well at PF (best +/- on the team), and they have a guy named Lebron at the 3. They are more effective against most teams with Z at center - rather than Shaq.

[nate33]

I'm going to be a hypocrite again - but to stop trade talk here. Cleveland is not going to trade us Z for Jamison. It's not going to happen. They're a half game behind Boston in the East - with Z on the team. His +/- is far better than Shaq's. Varejao fits very well at PF (best +/- on the team), and they have a guy named Lebron at the 3. They are more effective against most teams with Z at center - rather than Shaq.

If you talk to Cleveland fans, they're pretty unanimous in thinking that Shaq is more important than Z in the playoffs because of his ability to match up with the interior strength of Orlando, Boston and LA. But more importantly, they're counting on Z being waived and resigning with Cleveland.

I agree that Cleveland's recent success makes them a little less inclined to trade for Jamison. Nevertheless, the feeling is that they need to add one more piece to give them a better than 50/50 shot at winning the East. If they can get a good stretch PF for cash, they're going to do it.

It really boils down to Jamison or Troy Murphy. Murphy is a shorter contract (2011) and perhaps a slightly better defender, but he is exclusively a 4 and won't get more than 20 or so minutes, and he can't create his own shot when Lebron sits. Jamison is a 3/4 who could get 30 minutes, and he can carry more of the offensive load when Lebron sits.

I'm fairly confident that they'll take Jamison over Murphy if given the choice. My biggest concern is that something big happens to disrupt the status quo and we lose our opportunity to unload Jamison. Some examples are:

Jamison gets hurt, or
Chris Paul goes down so New Orleans blows it up and dumps David West, or
Bosh declares that he'll resign in Cleveland if traded there.

[miller31time]

This team simply is not title caliber so expecting Flip to come in here and transform this team from playoff first round exit to championship is not fair.

That's the main reason why I haven't been complaining about Flip this season - it just doesn't matter. But if, for a second, I forget that the team is inherently flawed and only look at Flip's performance, he hasn't done that much.

The defense is improved, sure, but not by that much. Give Eddie Jordan a healthy Haywood and we'd be 22nd or 23rd even factoring in the limited minutes the healthy Haywood would receive.

But it simply cannot be overlooked that our offense this year is putrid....worse than our defense if that's possible.

It's Flip's responsibility to get the offense playing well. Offense was never a problem for this roster until he showed up. His system doesn't suit our players and apparently, he has no intention of changing it. Hell, Arenas is almost back to normal and we STILL can't put up 90 against the T-Wolves.

Rotation-wise, he's done what every coach not named Eddie Jordan would have done and given Haywood the minutes he deserves. That's not too bright of a reflection towards Saunders. It just shows how idiotic the move was by EFJ

Blatche has been mismanaged so far. His offseason improvement and work was apparent to start the season. With Jamison being out, we played AB and he played really well. AJ comes back and suddenly, Blatche becomes a 2nd thought. His play suffers, too. I mean, it's no secret that when you're talking about guys like Andray and Nick, the more minutes you give them, the better they'll play. McGee continues to rack up the DNPs. I can understand JaVale not being a main part of our rotation but not giving him 7-10 minutes on a nightly basis is disgraceful. He overplayed Stevenson horribly. I don't know of anyone who could possibly disagree with that. Now, Stevenson is on the bench but it's pretty ridiculous it took as long as it did.

In terms of player morale, the team doesn't seem like a unit right now. There's been a lot of crap talked by our players about other members of the team, publicly. Recently, even Jamison threw a hissy fit for coming out of the game against Philly.

He's been much of what I thought - decent, nothing special, and overrated throughout his career.

[nate33]

Fair points Miller. I disagree with the notion that EFJ would have this team ranked 23rd defensively, but it's hard to argue with the others. Flip's offensive system obviously isn't as effective with this group of players as EFJ's offensive system. The question is: how much time does Flip deserve to teach a new system to the players before we start blaming Flip's system? I'm not sure if 25 games is enough.

For what it's worth, we averaged just 103.2 points per 100 possessions in the first 16 games when Arenas was sucking and Jamison was missing most of the games. That would rank us 25th on offense. We've averaged 105.7 points per 100 possessions in the 13 games following the Charlotte debocle. That ranks us 19th. In the last 8 games, we've posted 107.2 points per 100 possessions, which would rank us 14th. Not surprisingly, that latest surge corresponded to Arenas playing like the Hibachi of old.

If Flip can get that offensive efficiency up to 10th or so, while still playing defense at our current 19th rating, I think that beats what EJ did with a healthy Arenas (3rd on offense, 28th on D). And we'd be doing it with Arenas not at full strength.

[Ruzious]

If you talk to Cleveland fans, they're pretty unanimous in thinking that Shaq is more important than Z in the playoffs because of his ability to match up with the interior strength of Orlando, Boston and LA.

Right, it depends on matchups, which means they should keep both. It's not an either 1 or the other situation.

But more importantly, they're counting on Z being waived and resigning with Cleveland.

That's completely absurd and nothing more than an internet fantasy.

I agree that Cleveland's recent success makes them a little less inclined to trade for Jamison. Nevertheless, the feeling is that they need to add one more piece to give them a better than 50/50 shot at winning the East. If they can get a good stretch PF for cash, they're going to do it.

It really boils down to Jamison or Troy Murphy. Murphy is a shorter contract (2011) and perhaps a slightly better defender, but he is exclusively a 4 and won't get more than 20 or so minutes, and he can't create his own shot when Lebron sits. Jamison is a 3/4 who could get 30 minutes, and he can carry more of the offensive load when Lebron sits.

I'm fairly confident that they'll take Jamison over Murphy if given the choice. My biggest concern is that something big happens to disrupt the status quo and we lose our opportunity to unload Jamison. Some examples are:

Jamison gets hurt, or
Chris Paul goes down so New Orleans blows it up and dumps David West, or
Bosh declares that he'll resign in Cleveland if traded there.

Plech - see above. I wish it was a posiblity, but I try to be objective and think outside the internet. You're forcing me to be the Grinch who stole Christmas.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Good, at-least there is agreement about trading Jamison

Until recently I thought Caron's play and attitude weren't up to Antawn's.

Now, I'm thinking start with the Captain after his sullen display. Once he lost his cool and wasn't a team player I thought he's lost credibility and can no longer be a leader. Before, his consistent offense and rebounds, and his upbeat personality (having spoken with him several times at Pete Newell's -- I KNOW THE MAN IS A DECENT HUMAN BEING, and is kind to fans. He's genuinely nice IMO) made me say he's the leader of this team. Now, I've got an entirely different take.

I believe Jamison's unable to see where his style of play might hurt the team. He's got a lot of pride. I feel sorry that at this point in his career it's come to this with this team. I'm sorry that Abe's passing and all the injuries have messed up what might have been. It all adds up to time for a change.

The good news to me is Jamison can certainly help a few teams out there. Cleveland's got it going really well and I can't see why they'd change now, but AJ fits there. The other team I really see him going to is San Antonio. But they're committed to McDyess. If there were a way for them to move Bonner, McDyess, and Finley for Jamison ....

I digress. Jamison's the guy that needs to go first.

I hope he goes to a title contender and has a fantastic remainder of his career.

[nate33]

Plech - see above. I wish it was a posiblity, but I try to be objective and think outside the internet. You're forcing me to be the Grinch who stole Christmas.

You may be right. There's no way to know for sure. We do know that Cleveland fans are essentially on boards with a Z for Jamison swap. And we know that the trade almost happened last year before it was stopped by EG. I don't see a reason to think that it isn't on the table now.

And I also don't see the big hangup about cutting and resigning Z. Detroit worked out the same deal with McDyess.

[Ruzious]

Plech - see above. I wish it was a posiblity, but I try to be objective and think outside the internet. You're forcing me to be the Grinch who stole Christmas.

You may be right. There's no way to know for sure. We do know that Cleveland fans are essentially on boards with a Z for Jamison swap. And we know that the trade almost happened last year before it was stopped by EG. I don't see a reason to think that it isn't on the table now.

And I also don't see the big hangup about cutting and resigning Z. Detroit worked out the same deal with McDyess.

We had that discussion before. I doubt there was a conspiracy set up before the trade for to guarantee McDyess back to Detroit. In his case, he was talking about retiring, because it wasn't worth the pain he was going through to get on the court.

[Hoopalotta]

Ok, I have dragged the Cleveland-Center-Trade discussion over the the "discussing other teams moves" thread with a quote and reply from Ruzious.....

*DUHN-duhn-duhn! sound effect*

[closg00]

"We couldn't make a big stop," Coach Flip Saunders said. "We couldn't get a key rebound and it cost us. That was difficult. Situations being like we're at, you got to be able to make a stop. We're trying to stress to our guys to play smart on defense, get defensive stops in the fourth. There is no question we got tired and couldn't come up with some plays and they pounded us on the boards with their two big people."
Randolph and Gasol combined to grab 30 of the Grizzlies 54 rebounds, including 10 offensive rebounds. The Wizards had just 41 rebounds.

Why were certain guys tired? Let's see, Haywood played 44 minutes, AJ 41, and AB only 19. Down the stretch they went to Randolph in the post where he scored at-will against AJ. I don't recall any adjustments being made late in the 4th or in OT. 6-11 AB was still on the bench at the end. The tight rotation that you and Ernie love is working out great.

[closg00]

Self-explanatory:

If Haywood cannot go, the Wizards could start either Fabricio Oberto at center or go with Randy Foye at shooting guard and move Blatche to center against the smallish 76ers lineup.

If McGee cannot get playing time with Haywood out, what is there left to say about this coach and franchise?

[LyricalRico]

^ Is it at all possible that McGee just sucks and my never be more than an athletic freak who just couldn't get it? Why is that concept seemingly completely out of the realm of possibility on this board?

[dobrojim]

LR, I usually with you on defending Flip, but I think the answer to your
rhetorical question is pretty self evident from the occasional flashes of
real brilliance we have seen from McGee.

I think it's hard to argue that he shouldn't play more than he has.
Where are we going to be if/when Haywood leaves after the season
if we haven't at least started to groom JM more seriously than the
limited burn he's gotten this year so far?

I'm not saying play him 20 mpg right now, but you oughta be
creative and find a way to get him 5-8 mpg somehow. Every
once in a while, he might show you something that would justify
increasing that to 10-12 mpg. And he'll be much better prepared
to go 15-25 mpg next year. Or we'll know we need a backup C.

[closg00]

^ Is it at all possible that McGee just sucks and my never be more than an athletic freak who just couldn't get it? Why is that concept seemingly completely out of the realm of possibility on this board?

Sure it's possible that

McGee just sucks and my never be more than an athletic freak who just couldn't get it?

. But Is it likely? It would be within the realm of possibility to make such a judgment if say you, evaluated how he has played over the season. But given the number of DNP's and scant minutes played, you have to question the competency and motives of those responsible for drafting McGee and the coach who refuses to play him.