MVP Rankings 1.0

[JimMurray]

You do know that the reason people are saying the Lakers have had an easy schedule is because 19 of their 29 games have been at home while the Cavs have only played 14 out of 32 games at home.

You do understand that this means nothing at the end of the season right?

Yes, but that wasn't your point.

That's been my point the whole time!

[Inhuman]

lol funny how houMac failed to reply to certain points in jim murrays post.
Like lebron nuthuggers are quick to say Kobe's injuries are fake, but they fail to address or just ignore when people bring up lebron missing a week when he strained his finger on his non shooting hand.

[HouMac]

No he doesn't.

It's actually Kobe fans themselves who say he gambles too much.

The problem with your argument is that they are NOT MASSIVE.

You must be going blind. LeBron has very significant edges in overall scoring efficiency, assists, blocks and practically all ADVANCED stats. You can continue to live in denial though. It doesn't change the facts.

Also....look at the PER standings. Seriously...take a look. What you will notice is that of the top 20 PER leaders in the league....FOUR OF THEM are guards. Those players are Kobe, CP3, Nash, and Wade. Of the top 50 PER leaders only FOURTEEN are guards. Wrap your mind around that for a minute...and then re-evaluate what you understand PER to mean.

How does this actually work in Kobe's favor at all? Close to 30% of the Top 50 features guards. 40% of the Top 10 is guards. How is Kobe not getting a fair shake? Even the All Time PER leader is a shooting guard. Kobe's entire game is patterned after him. Honestly, you're making a fool of yourself here.

Have you ever had an avulsion fracture? That's a BROKEN BONE.

Exactly. Broken BONE, not a broken finger. You have 90% of your normal functionality under an avulsion fracture while it's healing. This is science. Continue saying otherwise to save Kobe's flagging current MVP case, but facts clearly tell us Kobe's injury is a non-issue. That must be killing you. You had clearly banked so heavily on this sham of an injury.

How is 47% not less than 48%?

But how does a 1% drop prove anything? It's such an insignificant drop that it merely backs up what I and science have been saying ALL ALONG - Kobe's injury isn't an injury worth talking about at all. It's so minor that it hasn't had the remotest impact on his play.

Kobe would say he was fine...if you shot him in the face.

Kobe is such a pathetic drama queen that he played with his left hand for an entire qtr to show how much he was "hurting". So when he of all people tells me he's fine and there's nothing in his play to indicate otherwise, I'll take his word.

You really didn't sir, you attempted to spin facts in a way more conducive to your arguments, which might have worked with an 8 year old...or a girl. But I'm neither one of those two things.

LOL, how about actually countering the points I've made instead of wasting everybody's time with empty statements like these? Oh right, you can't counter what I said, because they're facts. Doesn't hurt to repeat 'em again: Fact 1) LA has played the softest schedule in the league thus far 2) Kobe's cast is superior to LeBron's.

Stop arguing the schedule thing...it's (Please Use More Appropriate Word), and doesn't even work for you since the Lakers will play a much tougher schedule at the end of 82 games.

Except we're arguing who the MVP is right now, thus making the schedule both teams have played so far relevant in every way.

[INKtastic]

fine, take martin out because of the small sample size. 3 SFs vs 2 SGs int the top 20, not much of a difference, and it's pretty arbitrary where you cut things off.

Cut it off at top 10 and you get
2 PGs
2 SGs
2 SFs
2 PFs
2 Cs

So you get 4 guards out of 10? And that's your big point?

Cut it off at top 5 and you get

As a general principle, your supposed to add numbers to the sample to make your arguments more relevant...not subtract.

Cut it off at top 50, toss the guys with small sample sizes, you get 9 PGs, 6 SGs, 6 SFs, just where is this skewing that you claim favors SGs over SFs?

Wait...what?! Skewing? You might want to read over what you just wrote and re-think that sentence. That has fail all over it. I argued that PER favors Forwards and Centers over Guards, and cited that within the top 50 PER scores, only 15 of those belonged to guards. Where did I go wrong? You're panicking. Compose yourself......BREATHE.

Chop up the facts anyway you want...

4 out of 20
15 out of 50

Those are the numbers that matter. Sorry to ruin your day.

LeBron isn't a C, he isn't a PF, he's a SF, there's no evidence that PER favors SFs over SGs.

[THROWBACK_91]

Hey guys i didn't want to make thread because i thought it would be appropriate to post it here.

Why isn't Brandon Roy the MVP


What does MVP mean, most valuable player.
So for me, that means you remove that player from the team and the team cant win, as in they just win the same amount of games.
So does anyone agree that if you remove Roy from the Blazers they go 12-18 instead of 18-12. Because if you remove LeBron from cleveland there still going to win games, same with Kobe.
Anyway, that to me means mvp. If you remove Roy from Portland they are one of the worst teams in the league

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Hey guys i didn't want to make thread because i thought it would be appropriate to post it here.

Why isn't Brandon Roy the MVP


What does MVP mean, most valuable player.
So for me, that means you remove that player from the team and the team cant win, as in they just win the same amount of games.
So does anyone agree that if you remove Roy from the Blazers they go 12-18 instead of 18-12. Because if you remove LeBron from cleveland there still going to win games, same with Kobe.
Anyway, that to me means mvp. If you remove Roy from Portland they are one of the worst teams in the league

Kobe and LeBron would both produce more wins than Roy has with that team, regardless of the injuries that have happened.

[See5]

It's almost time to throw that "superior" supporting cast arguement out of the window.

Kobe and LeBron's help have switched roles all of a sudden. Go figure. The Lakers are looking like garbage at Phoenix right now.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

It's almost time to throw that "superior" supporting cast arguement out of the window.

Kobe and LeBron's help have switched roles all of a sudden. Go figure. The Lakers are looking like garbage at Phoenix right now.

Would the Lakers trade Fisher,Gasol and Bynum for Shaq, Mo, and Z tomorrow?

Didn't think so.

[See5]

Would the Lakers trade Fisher,Gasol and Bynum for Shaq, Mo, and Z tomorrow?

Didn't think so.

Too bad there's more than 4 players on a team and if Fish wasn't so damn clutch he'd definitely be gone by now(damn Fish and his clutchness ). Maybe I'm overreacting but anyone who has seen LA lately would probably agree. There's no reason why Kobe and Gasol should be playing 40+ minutes a game at this point in the season and yet they've done just that over the past 10 games.

That's a great example of lack of depth. LA's starting lineup is amazing but after LO, what's left?

[YLSKillaCam]

I don't want to hear anymore about Pau Gasol or how great the Lakers are.

The Lakers bench is the worst in the league.

Frankly, if Kobe gets the Lakers the #1 seed with this team, his all time ranking should increase.

[INKtastic]

You do know that the reason people are saying the Lakers have had an easy schedule is because 19 of their 29 games have been at home while the Cavs have only played 14 out of 32 games at home.

You do understand that this means nothing at the end of the season right?

you're seeing the point tonight - you don't win as often on the road. So playing quite a few more home games than road games skews your record until you get those road games (and the resulting additional road losses that come with them). Cleveland has 23 road games left (10 against teams above .500), LA has 30 road games left (16 against teams over .500).

You don't think not playing those games yet gives LA a temporary advantage in the standings? Or that when they do play those games, they'll have trouble keeping up their current pace that some want to project final records off of? With the scheduling break they've had, and the transitional period the Cavs went through with their roster change, LA really should have more than a 1.0 game lead right now if they want to finish with the better record.

[Doctor MJ]

I agree with everything you said with the exception of the last sentence. Lebron had a breakthrough in 07-08, that carried over to 08-09, and although it was statistically better than the previous season, it was not SIGNIFICANTLY better.

James' PER jumped from 26th all-time to 4th in '08-09.
James' team net +/- jumped from +10.6 to +21. At +21, he trumped everyone's number since 82game started posting the numbers except Garnett one year, but Garnett didn't do it on a team that was anywhere near as successful (which make James' number just completely off the charts).

Those are huge differences.

Now, either you, or most of the people looking to tear down James will bemoan the stats I'm using here. The anti-PER argument is silly. James' base numbers don't appear that much better because he played so much less - which he only did because playing more was unnecessary. Very clearly, his box score stats were SIGNIFICANTLY more impressive when you look at them per minute.

Anti-+/-? Well I won't say that an argument there is totally silly. But if you won't put stock in PER, and you won't put stock in +/-, then you're basically refusing to look at numbers at all because the two have zero dependency on each other. Ridiculous to think that both numbers could peak like that without it saying loads about LeBron's play.

[HouMac]

I don't want to hear anymore about Pau Gasol or how great the Lakers are.

The Lakers bench is the worst in the league.

Whatever happened to Kobe making his teammates better? That's the tripe your were selling a while ago when LA was flourishing as a team. That Kobe's superior skills and incredible leadership( ) was THE reason behind his teammates' success whereas LeBron stilted his casts' game. What happened?

[mysticbb]

It's almost time to throw that "superior" supporting cast arguement out of the window. :lol:

The superior supporting cast argument applies mainly for the next best 7 players on the Lakers after Bryant. Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, Fisher, Walton and Brown are superior to all other teams best 7 after the best player. Nevertheless the rest of the bench is pretty bad. Once the Lakers face an injury to one of their Top 8 players, they will have trouble to get a good bench production. With Artest and Walton out the Lakers have no backup SF left. Their C/PF situation is also effected due to the fact that Odom has to start as SF. BUT, in the playoffs a team hardly uses more than a 8 man rotation anyway. And no team has a bigger and stronger 8 man rotation than the Lakers. That is the reason why they are championship contenders.

Kobe and LeBron's help have switched roles all of a sudden. Go figure. The Lakers are looking like garbage at Phoenix right now.

I doubt that. Nobody would trade the best 7 players after Bryant on the Lakers for the best 7 guys on the Cavaliers. Right now the Cavaliers are just healthy, while the Lakers are missing two of their SF.

The adj. +/- for the players in the discussion right now (according to nba.com's MVP race):

1. Dirk Nowitzki +22.8
2. LeBron James +22.6
3. Dwyane Wade +20.6
4. Kobe Bryant +14.0
5. Dwight Howard +7.6
6. Kevin Durant +7.3
7. Steve Nash +7.2
8. Brandon Roy +1.5
9. Carmelo Anthony +0.9
10. Tyreke Evans -8.8


A couple of players I would like to add:

Deron Williams +19.9
Josh Smith +16.3
Tim Duncan +12.6
Ray Allen +9.1

Well, obviously there are better candidates than Carmelo Anthony or Tyreke Evans, especially Tim Duncan should be in the discussion.

[Father Time]

I don't want to hear anymore about Pau Gasol or how great the Lakers are.

The Lakers bench is the worst in the league.

Whatever happened to Kobe making his teammates better? That's the tripe your were selling a while ago when LA was flourishing as a team. That Kobe's superior skills and incredible leadership( ) was THE reason behind his teammates' success whereas LeBron stilted his casts' game. What happened?

Cleveland lost 2 in a row to start the season. Great leadership ( ).

Boston also had a early season skid that had their blogs wondering what the hell was wrong with the team.

Good teams have lackadaisical stretches where they struggle. It happens, and it's DECEMBER.

[Doctor MJ]

The adj. +/- for the players in the discussion right now (according to nba.com's MVP race):

1. Dirk Nowitzki +22.8
2. LeBron James +22.6
3. Dwyane Wade +20.6
4. Kobe Bryant +14.0
5. Dwight Howard +7.6
6. Kevin Durant +7.3
7. Steve Nash +7.2
8. Brandon Roy +1.5
9. Carmelo Anthony +0.9
10. Tyreke Evans -8.8

Continually blows me away how predictable this fact is: In any given year, the rookie everyone thinks is an MVP candidate contributes nothing from a +/- perspective. That same rookie will contribute +/- a few years later, so it's not that the praise of the rookie is completely crazy. I'm convinced what happens is that the team recognizes the talent, builds the team around his talent which lets him put up volume stats, but he doesn't actually learn the nuances of the game necessary to really benefit his team until well afterward.

[Inhuman]

At the start of the season Phil hardly gave any minutes to morrison or sasha (or even mbenga)
Suddenly he is giving them a lot of minutes and the lakers are on a slump of sorts.
Phil trying to showcase sasha and morrison as trade bait is hurting the lakers.

[mysticbb]

At the start of the season Phil hardly gave any minutes to morrison or sasha (or even mbenga)
Suddenly he is giving them a lot of minutes and the lakers are on a slump of sorts.
Phil trying to showcase sasha and morrison as trade bait is hurting the lakers.

Showcasing? Don't lie to yourself. Vujacic and Morrison are the players left to play some minutes at SF since Artest is injured. That is the reason for their extended playing time tonight. Morrison didn't even play more than 4 minutes in a double-overtime game against Sacramento.

[Inhuman]

At the start of the season Phil hardly gave any minutes to morrison or sasha (or even mbenga)
Suddenly he is giving them a lot of minutes and the lakers are on a slump of sorts.
Phil trying to showcase sasha and morrison as trade bait is hurting the lakers.

Showcasing? Don't lie to yourself. Vujacic and Morrison are the players left to play some minutes at SF since Artest is injured. That is the reason for their extended playing time tonight. Morrison didn't even play more than 4 minutes in a double-overtime game against Sacramento.

Sasha was getting almost no playing time early on. Phil even benched him completely in a game or two. Morrison would only get a few minutes during garbage time.
Recently even when artest was playing suddenly phil starts playing sasha way more and the lakers start playing like crap.

[mysticbb]

Sasha was getting almost no playing time early on.

Vujacic played 8.5 minutes per game in Oct./Nov., he played 7 per game so far in this month. He had 16 minutes against Sacramento in which he didn't play that bad. The Lakers can use Vujacic's 3 pt shooting anyway.

Phil even benched him completely in a game or two. Morrison would only get a few minutes during garbage time.

Once Artest and/or Walton are back Morrison will again only see minutes during garbage time.