NOH- CHI -MIN

[shrink]

CHI gives NOH a young .. and cheap .. player it needs, but it doesn't address the Hornets main reason for trading West now -- they need to get under the lux. Unfortunately, CHI doesn't have the 2009-10 finances to give it to NOH without putting themselves over the lux, which they will not do. Best way to solve both problems is to bring in a team that can help with the finances

CHI OUT: 20.3 Noah + Tyrus Thomas + B Miller + Taj Gibson
CHI IN: 21.0 Okafor + David West + Dev Brown

NOH OUT: 24.5 Okafor + West + Armstrong + Marks + Dev Brown + 2010 pick, top 3 prot + $3 mil
NOH IN: 20.6 Noah + Tyrus + Wilkins + Blount + Jawai + Taj Gibson + $3.9 mil in 2009 cap space ($12 mil)

MIN OUT: 12.2 Wilkins + Blount + Jawai
MIN IN: 15.9 B Miller + H Armstrong + Marks + 2010 pick, top 3 protected + $3 mil

CHI adds an All Star PF filling their greatest need in David West, Okafor starts at center, and , and Devin Brown is useful as well, and they do it all without crossing their lux.

NOH gets a young star replacement in Noah, saves $12 mil this year (-$3 cash), and perhaps $35 mil next season -- $45 mil is well worth a pick, since it helps them keep Chris Paul.

MIN trades $3.5 mil in 2009-10 payroll for a pick around 10 to add to their arsenal trading for a star. No longterm salary impact.

This deal seems unnecessarily big, but its necessary to for NOH to add talent and also send out enough expirings to get the $3.3 mil they need to get under the lux.

[john2jer]

Way too good for the Wolves.

[John Doe [MIN]]

Way too good for the Wolves.

Way too bad of a response.

A trade being 'too good' for a team is not a reason a trade won't work. I understand that there's an implied "the Wolves get too much, causing someone else to get not enough," but if you don't specify what that issue is, then what is your post worth?

I think it's fair value for the Hornets if that's the direction they want to go, but if the trade falls short, I suspect it would be because Chicago doesn't want to give up its 2010 free agency hopes in order to take on the same frontcourt that Chris Paul can't win with. Nice idea though.

[skorff26]

Take out the 3 million cash NOH sends to Minnesota, that may be a deal breaker from their end.

I don't know if Chicago wants to take on salary, I could see them going really hard after Wade in the offseason.

[john2jer]

Way too good for the Wolves.

Way too bad of a response.

A trade being 'too good' for a team is not a reason a trade won't work. I understand that there's an implied "the Wolves get too much, causing someone else to get not enough," but if you don't specify what that issue is, then what is your post worth?

I think it's fair value for the Hornets if that's the direction they want to go, but if the trade falls short, I suspect it would be because Chicago doesn't want to give up its 2010 free agency hopes in order to take on the same frontcourt that Chris Paul can't win with. Nice idea though.

My post was worth about tree fitty.

I don't think Chicago does this. Okafor isn't worth his contract, and I don't see them wanting to dump Noah for West, who I believe is a product of CP3. Chicago also takes on roughly $16mil in 2010, which kills all of their cap space.

So they make this trade to be a lesser version of the Hornets? Basically all the pieces are the same except CP3 is much better than Rose. They're likely a better team without doing this trade. And there's no way they give up on 2010 while there's a hope for adding Bosh or Wade to the team they already have intact.

[Esohny]

Way too good for the Wolves.

Way too bad of a response.

A trade being 'too good' for a team is not a reason a trade won't work. I understand that there's an implied "the Wolves get too much, causing someone else to get not enough," but if you don't specify what that issue is, then what is your post worth?

I think it's fair value for the Hornets if that's the direction they want to go, but if the trade falls short, I suspect it would be because Chicago doesn't want to give up its 2010 free agency hopes in order to take on the same frontcourt that Chris Paul can't win with. Nice idea though.

My post was worth about tree fitty.

I don't think Chicago does this. Okafor isn't worth his contract, and I don't see them wanting to dump Noah for West, who I believe is a product of CP3. Chicago also takes on roughly $16mil in 2010, which kills all of their cap space.

So they make this trade to be a lesser version of the Hornets? Basically all the pieces are the same except CP3 is much better than Rose. They're likely a better team without doing this trade. And there's no way they give up on 2010 while there's a hope for adding Bosh or Wade to the team they already have intact.

And it was right about this time that I realized that john2jer was a giant crustacean from the paleolithic era. Dammit j2j, we work hard for our money in this house; we don't GIVE IT AWAY!

Anywho, I agree that the Bulls probably wouldn't give up on 2010 for this, but I actually think the Bulls would be quite a bit better than the Hornets, especially in the east. the Bulls would actually have a competent 2-way wing player in Deng (who I have no interest in and is highly overpaid, but is certainly much better at this point than Peja).

[shrink]

Thanks for the comments.

The initial deal was suggested by a Bulls fan (without MIN inside getting NOH under the lux), but other Bulls postrs were lukewarm.

If I'm NOH though, I would jump on that immediately. They put together a team that they can't afford, and this would not only fix their payroll, but add a good young player that might keep Paul from asking for a trade. The amount of monry they save is absurd.

[ChazzleDazzle]

As someone who lives in Chicago (and gets to hear a lot of Bulls talk), I doubt they do this. I'm sure they'd love to add West, and might not even react too poorly to Okafor (though I think most feel like they're shooting for Bosh and/or Wade--you can judge how realistic that is for yourself.)

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that this year after Rose, Bulls fans probably feel most positive about Noah, and then Gibson, and they're sending both of them (and the expirings that could get them Bosh, etc.) in this deal.

I'm sure they'd look at a smaller version built around Tyrus and a pick, but that doesn't accomplish enough for NOH...

[shrink]

I'm sure they'd look at a smaller version built around Tyrus and a pick, but that doesn't accomplish enough for NOH...

I believe I have another deal like that floating around. Something like:

CHI GIVES: Tyrus + Jerome James + CHI PICK
CHI GETS: West + Hilton Armstrong

NOH GIVES: West + Armstrong + filler
NOH GETS: Tyrus + Wilkins + MIN expirings + $3.5 mil in cap relief (saves $12 mil)

MIN GIVES: Wilkins + Filler + $3.5 mil in 2010 cap space
MIN GETS: Expiring garbage + CHI pick

... but it needed work, and the espn trade checker kept failing on me.

[pchrys3]

If you take the OP's trade idea to the Chicago board, the posters would most likely react with some hostility. To be honest, West could be a good target if Bosh and Boozer doesn't happen, but we are trying to position ourselves to maximize 2010 space while being competitive. Losing Noah, which we feel very positive about going forward as well as Taj Gibson who has exceeded everyone's expectations for the year, to get an Okafor makes us worse off going forward in 2010 and doesn't make us any better. Tyrus and Noah will only be traded in a package possibly with Deng for an all star. Salmons and Hinrich will go for expirings and picks. I would do Tyrus and Jerome James expiring for West and Hilton.

[shrink]

Tyrus and Noah will only be traded in a package possibly with Deng for an all star. Salmons and Hinrich will go for expirings and picks. I would do Tyrus and Jerome James expiring for West and Hilton.

Credibility = 0

1. West IS an all star
2. Salmons and Hinrich are probably not worth expirings -- certainly not expirings and pick.
3. Tyrus Thomas wasn't extended - he's just an expiring. You won't get West + expiring Hilton Armstrong for expirings.

Like I said, the CHI part was created by a CHI poster. But if other CHI posters are as unrealistic as you are and bash him, then I would take his side.

[Ajosu]

Just to pipe in, there's no way Chicago should do this. While I'm not all that confident in our management's ability to make the right decisions right now, this is just an awful trade for us.

Tyrus and Noah will only be traded in a package possibly with Deng for an all star. Salmons and Hinrich will go for expirings and picks. I would do Tyrus and Jerome James expiring for West and Hilton.

Credibility = 0

1. West IS an all star
2. Salmons and Hinrich are probably not worth expirings -- certainly not expirings and pick.
3. Tyrus Thomas wasn't extended - he's just an expiring. You won't get West + expiring Hilton Armstrong for expirings.

Like I said, the CHI part was created by a CHI poster. But if other CHI posters are as unrealistic as you are and bash him, then I would take his side.

Im not sure who the CHI poster was that created this, but I have to disagree. I think its a bad trade for the Bulls. Noah is on a good contract right now, and we have options with Tyrus. We can simply renounce him to clear space for a 2010 FA if we don't like him. But if he keeps up his good play, we could move other players and keep him while still going for a big FA this summer.

IMO, if we are going to move one of our better players, it needs to be Deng. He's a very good player, but he doesn't fit well with Rose, simply because neither are consistent three point threats.

There are a handful of players that I think need to go, but Noah isn't one of them, unless it is for a significant upgrade...and this one doesn't fit the bill. Hinrich's role doesn't fit his contract, so he needs to go. Salmons could kill our 2010 hopes if he opts in, and with his god-awful play this year that is a very real threat. He needs to go. This trade accomplishes none of this for us, isn't much of a leap talent-wise, and doesn't help us in the future.

I proposed a trade earlier that would include Deng and Noah for Al Jeff, and it got mixed responses. But Noah and Tyrus for David West and Okafur doesn't make sense for us. Neither West nor Okafur fit the uptempo style that we want to build around Rose.

[Narf]

And it was right about this time that I realized that john2jer was a giant crustacean from the paleolithic era. Dammit j2j, we work hard for our money in this house; we don't GIVE IT AWAY!

Anywho, I agree that the Bulls probably wouldn't give up on 2010 for this, but I actually think the Bulls would be quite a bit better than the Hornets, especially in the east. the Bulls would actually have a competent 2-way wing player in Deng (who I have no interest in and is highly overpaid, but is certainly much better at this point than Peja).

You're just realizing this now? After his big story in the Onion? Jeeze.

Chicago wants their cap space, I think. But let's be honest, they might darn well want to get rid of Noah. Sure, he's playing well right now. But a year ago he was fighting with teammates, locked out of the locker room, etc, etc, etc. They really might go for this, just to get rid of the "cancer".

I'm speculating, of course, but you never know.

[Ajosu]

Chicago wants their cap space, I think. But let's be honest, they might darn well want to get rid of Noah.

I don't see it.

Sure, he's playing well right now. But a year ago he was fighting with teammates, locked out of the locker room, etc, etc, etc. They really might go for this, just to get rid of the "cancer".

The only real incident I recall was between him and Ben Wallace - the real "cancer."

Noah brings great energy and a great attitude to this team. He is about as far from a cancer as you can get. He's also about the only core guy with enough balls to stand up for himself and the team. I was thrilled to see him say something to Lebron after all that dancing on the court.

While Im hardly ever on the same page wth our management's direction these days, I would be utterly shocked if they felt Noah was a cancer and wanted to move him.

[Narf]

Chicago wants their cap space, I think. But let's be honest, they might darn well want to get rid of Noah.

I don't see it.

Sure, he's playing well right now. But a year ago he was fighting with teammates, locked out of the locker room, etc, etc, etc. They really might go for this, just to get rid of the "cancer".

The only real incident I recall was between him and Ben Wallace - the real "cancer."

Noah brings great energy and a great attitude to this team. He is about as far from a cancer as you can get. He's also about the only core guy with enough balls to stand up for himself and the team. I was thrilled to see him say something to Lebron after all that dancing on the court.

While Im hardly ever on the same page wth our management's direction these days, I would be utterly shocked if they felt Noah was a cancer and wanted to move him.

Selective memory is not my problem. In fact, it makes me call into question who you actually are.

Chicago Bulls
rookie Joakim Noah was benched for Sunday's game against the Atlanta Hawks -- by his teammates. They delivered a unanimous vote after the rookie from Florida was involved in a confrontation with assistant coach Ron Adams in practice before Friday's game at Philadelphia. Noah was inactive for the Philadelphia

There are more where that came from too. He had multiple incidents, and there is no guarantee that there aren't still more that they have kept under wraps.

[Ajosu]

Selective memory is not my problem. In fact, it makes me call into question who you actually are.

Selective memory isn't my problem, either. In case you were wondering, Im a Bulls fan. I base my opinion from watching them play, and discussing them a heck of a lot more than you do.

Chicago Bulls
rookie Joakim Noah was benched for Sunday's game against the Atlanta Hawks -- by his teammates. They delivered a unanimous vote after the rookie from Florida was involved in a confrontation with assistant coach Ron Adams in practice before Friday's game at Philadelphia. Noah was inactive for the Philadelphia

There are more where that came from too. He had multiple incidents, and there is no guarantee that there aren't still more that they have kept under wraps.

There's no reason to believe that there are more incidents being kept under wraps.

No doubt there were some incidents, but losing tends to have that effect on a team...especially players whose number one goal is to win rather than put up a nice statline.

Anyways, I'd like to see the links to as many conflicts involving Noah that you have, just because I might not remember them all. But this would be the first time in a long long time that I've ever heard someone refer to Noah as a cancer. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, but it seems you took it that way. Just based on the entire fanbase and bulls' realgm board, Noah is pretty highly regarded, and not being shopped.

[shrink]

Well, it is kind of hard to believe you when you said the only incident you can remember was between Noah and Ben Wallace, because the one Narf mentioned grabbed headlines. I don't believe players have ever benched another player in the history of the NBA.

But I tend to agree with you that the bulls wouldn't enjoy sending out Noah, but David West is an All Star center, and Okafor isn't too shabby either. Luol Deng may be a contract .. I mean "player" .. the bulls want to move, but he isn't going to be bringing in All Stars, especially from cost-conscious NOH.

I also would mention that I think you're being overly optimistic on your Tyrus Thomas scenarios. The bulls refused the extension to his rookie contract Oct 31, so if you want to keep him using your bird rights, he's going to carry a cap hold of (3x his current salary) about $9.4 mil, and that will certainly put a damper on your free agent plans.

[shangrila]

Doesn't a refusal of his option also make him unrestricted?

[Ajosu]

Well, it is kind of hard to believe you when you said the only incident you can remember was between Noah and Ben Wallace, because the one Narf mentioned grabbed headlines. I don't believe players have ever benched another player in the history of the NBA.

Here's what I remember. He was out of shape. He got in trouble for smoking pot. There was an altercation with Ben Wallace. And then the player benching.

But I tend to agree with you that the bulls wouldn't enjoy sending out Noah, but David West is an All Star center, and Okafor isn't too shabby either. Luol Deng may be a contract .. I mean "player" .. the bulls want to move, but he isn't going to be bringing in All Stars, especially from cost-conscious NOH.

I want to move Deng, the contract, and Deng, the poor fit with Rose. If we can find a starting big man who can hit the three, I'd be all for keeping Deng. But I don't think that is likely. Basically, to be rid of his contract, I would be content with a player(s) who is a slight drop in talent but is a better fit with Rose.

I wouldn't be so sure that Deng/Noah cannot net an All-star. Deng isn't far from an All-star (even though I think he'll always be a step behind), and Noah is one of the top rebounders in the NBA, and an above average starting C. I think it is entirely possible to net a better player than Deng in exchange for a package featuring him and Noah. And a better player than Deng is an All-Star.

West is a PF, not a C, by the way. Okafur's best suited to play PF as well. Okafur/West is not my idea of a great front court. I'd rather try to pair Bosh/Amare/Boozer (or even my beloved Al Jeff!) with Noah.

I also would mention that I think you're being overly optimistic on your Tyrus Thomas scenarios. The bulls refused the extension to his rookie contract Oct 31, so if you want to keep him using your bird rights, he's going to carry a cap hold of (3x his current salary) about $9.4 mil, and that will certainly put a damper on your free agent plans.

I think it is highly unlikely that we keep Tyrus, so I don't think I'm being overly optimistic. I think the most likley scenarios are either he gets traded, or we renounce him after this season. In the event he gets traded, I see no reason to involve one of our better assets for such a minimal upgrade in talent.

[panth181]

But I tend to agree with you that the bulls wouldn't enjoy sending out Noah, but David West is an All Star center, and Okafor isn't too shabby either. Luol Deng may be a contract .. I mean "player" .. the bulls want to move, but he isn't going to be bringing in All Stars, especially from cost-conscious NOH.

David West is in no way, shape or form an all-star center.

And Joakim Noah certainly isn't a "cancer". The homers around here tried to claim that in order to justify the Brewer selection, but it simply wasn't true. He's had one incident his entire career, and other than that has been an overwhelmingly positive locker room presence.