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Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick)

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Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#1 » by shrink » Wed Jan 6, 2010 4:21 pm

Here's some clarification for you guys on the UTA pick, and you can laugh at how I think.

As NYK and UTA's records bounce around from being a play-off team to lottery contention, I was giving some thought to the extra protections on the UTA pick - most notably he line that we get the worse of the UTA and NYK pick. It struck me that while the UTA pick is protected, the NYK pick is not. In my little mind, I came up with a scenario where UTA and NYK both end up in the lottery (not an unlikely proposition), and UTA wins the #1 spot, and NYK the #2 (extremely unlikely). The lesser of the picks was unprotected, so maybe this low value pick could be extremely valuable if we could get the #2 pick in the draft?

Embiggened (lol), I went to find the exact language for the protected pick we own from Utah

Utah conveys to Philadelphia Utah’s own first round draft pick in the first Draft, commencing with the 2009 Draft, in which such pick is not a “Protected Pick” (as defined below). However, if: (i) Utah would be required to convey to Philadelphia its own 2009 first round draft pick pursuant to the foregoing, and (ii) Utah is entitled to receive New York’s own 2009 first round draft pick pursuant to the terms of the February 19, 2004 trade between Utah and Phoenix and the January 5, 2004 trade between Phoenix and New York (the “Utah/Phoenix and Phoenix/New York Trades”), then Utah shall convey to Philadelphia the more favorable of its own 2009 first round draft pick and New York’s 2009 first round draft pick. Further, if: (x) Utah has not previously conveyed a first round draft pick to Philadelphia pursuant to the terms of this trade, (y) Utah would be required to convey to Philadelphia its own 2010 first round draft pick pursuant to the terms of this trade, and (z) Utah is entitled to receive New York’s own 2010 first round draft pick pursuant to the terms of the Utah/Phoenix and Phoenix/New York Trades, then Utah shall convey to Philadelphia the least favorable of its own 2010 first round draft pick and New York’s 2010 first round draft pick. If Philadelphia does not receive a first round draft pick from Utah pursuant to the foregoing in any of the Drafts from 2009 through 2013, then Utah’s obligation to send a first round draft pick to Philadelphia shall be extinguished and Utah shall instead convey to Philadelphia Utah’s own 2014 second round draft pick and pay to Philadelphia the sum of $1,150,000 in cash on or before July 15, 2014. (Korver – Giricek, 12/29/07)

The following first round picks are “Protected Picks”:

Draft Picks
2009 1 – 22
2010 1 – 15
2011 1 – 17
2012 1 – 16
2013 1 – 16


Blech. Its easier to wade through when you erase the first 40% (since no pick was conveyed in 2009) and insert "Minnesota" in for every "Philadelphia."

Unfortunately, the lawyers two years ago saw my eventuality. In Section (ii), Part (y), we'd only get the lesser pick if UTA had to give us a pick.

Anyway, for people who don't enjoy reading all the legalese, I posted because this because it things, now that both UTA and NYK are both teams that may, or may not fall into the lottery.

1. We only get a pick if the UTA pick is #16 or worse (regardless of NYK's position)

2. If UTA is 16 or lower, they might be able to send us an even worse pick, if NYK's pick is even lower.


I should also point out that for the Western Conference, we'd probably get a pick if UTA makes the play-offs. Granted picks 15 and 16 will go to play-off teams, but with a weaker Eastern Conference, the West's #8 seed will most likely have a better record than the East's 7 or 8 seed. Right now, the West's 8 seed is 19-15, which would make them the 5th seed in the East. That would be the #18 pick - unprotected.

So if you'd like that pick, cheer for NYK if you can, and cheer for #9 seed UTA, one game out.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#2 » by ChazzleDazzle » Wed Jan 6, 2010 5:22 pm

No idea why you'd lol at the word embiggen. It's a perfectly cromulent word...

I shudder to know what your rl job is, Shrink, if this is considered more exciting =) Thanks for doing the grunt work.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#3 » by skorff26 » Wed Jan 6, 2010 7:58 pm

Utah is entitled to receive New York’s own 2010 first round draft pick pursuant to the terms of the Utah/Phoenix and Phoenix/New York Trades, then Utah shall convey to Philadelphia the least favorable of its own 2010 first round draft pick and New York’s 2010 first round draft pick

The following first round picks are “Protected Picks”:

Draft Picks
2009 1 – 22
2010 1 – 15
2011 1 – 17
2012 1 – 16
2013 1 – 16


Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but don't we only get a first rounder from Utah if Utah is 16th or worse regardless of where NY is; so then if Utah finished in the lottery then we would not be getting a pick at all in 2010.

And from the wording on the top, for example, if Utah finishes 16th and NY 17th; we'd get pick #17 then; so we don't want NY to do really good since then they can convey to us a worse pick then their own.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#4 » by Narf » Wed Jan 6, 2010 8:26 pm

It never even occured to me to see if we could get the Knicks pick, because it never occured to me that the Knicks could be better than Utah.

And yes, Skorff, we should not be rooting for the Knicks. They can only hurt us.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#5 » by shrink » Wed Jan 6, 2010 9:15 pm

Sorry -- you're right skorff .. we want UTA to make the play-offs .. but just barely. We should root for the Knicks pick to increase (or is it decrease?), so they aren't in the equation. sorry about messing that up.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#6 » by skorff26 » Wed Jan 6, 2010 9:23 pm

shrink wrote:Sorry -- you're right skorff .. we want UTA to make the play-offs .. but just barely. We should root for the Knicks pick to increase (or is it decrease?), so they aren't in the equation. sorry about messing that up.

We want the knicks to finish with a worse record then Utah, but not to bad since I don't think anyone really wants Utah to get a really good pick; perfect scenario might be Utah #16 and New York #15; but if Utah makes the playoffs, likely at best they will get #18 or #19 since the bottom of the east sucks and they'll have the #15-#17 slots filled up for sure.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#7 » by C.lupus » Wed Jan 6, 2010 9:26 pm

I'm gonna root for Utah and NYK to be tied at 16.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#8 » by shangrila » Wed Jan 6, 2010 11:55 pm

I don't think there's any way Utah's pick ends up at 16. Remember to make the playoffs in the West they'll have to have a better record then the last 2 or 3 teams that make the playoffs in the East, so they'd instantly be in that 17-18.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#9 » by big3_8_19_21 » Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:20 am

So even if NYK had some miracle and got pick, say...25, and Utah is in the lottery, we don't get NYK's pick? Utah HAS to have the 16th pick or worse for us to get ANYTHING?
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#10 » by Rashoismydad » Thu Jan 7, 2010 12:46 am

With our capspace and their cap issues, it makes it easy for us to facilitate a small cap saving trade for them.

We could send them Gomes/Blount/Wilkens for AK47 and NYK pick. It would just delay our capspace a year. We would just have to determine if AK47+player with NYK pick >>> Free agent we could sign. Since it looks like we might be left with the likes of Gay, Brewer, Azabuike etc in FA it might not be bad.

I think I would give up our 2010 cap space for say Wesley Johnson and a year of AK47.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#11 » by shrink » Thu Jan 7, 2010 1:34 am

big3_8_19_21 wrote:So even if NYK had some miracle and got pick, say...25, and Utah is in the lottery, we don't get NYK's pick? Utah HAS to have the 16th pick or worse for us to get ANYTHING?


You got it right. We'd have to wait and see what happened next year.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#12 » by Narf » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:50 am

Rashoismydad wrote:With our capspace and their cap issues, it makes it easy for us to facilitate a small cap saving trade for them.

We could send them Gomes/Blount/Wilkens for AK47 and NYK pick. It would just delay our capspace a year. We would just have to determine if AK47+player with NYK pick >>> Free agent we could sign. Since it looks like we might be left with the likes of Gay, Brewer, Azabuike etc in FA it might not be bad.

I think I would give up our 2010 cap space for say Wesley Johnson and a year of AK47.

If NY starts playing better, and Utah starts playing worse, they might actually go for a trade like that. But they will play the "wait and see" game first I think. It's something I suggested a while back that most people didn't think Utah would do.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#13 » by shrink » Thu Jan 7, 2010 5:33 am

Kirilenko isn't a bad player, but he makes an ungodly $17.8 million dollars next year. If that pick isn't even lotto, I think that's too much to pay, particularly if the deal includes Gomes.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#14 » by shrink » Thu Jan 7, 2010 5:38 am

All right! With OKC's loss tonight, and UTA's victory over contending MEM, the Jazz and the Thunder are tied for the #8 spot, and hold a 1.5 game lead over 10th seed Memphis.

I'll be starting my daily pick countdown tomorrow, and ...

.. um .. maybe I'll wait a little later in the season before I start that again.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#15 » by Narf » Thu Jan 7, 2010 6:55 am

shrink wrote:Kirilenko isn't a bad player, but he makes an ungodly $17.8 million dollars next year. If that pick isn't even lotto, I think that's too much to pay, particularly if the deal includes Gomes.
I'd wager that it ends up being a lotto pick. Toronto is #6 at the moment, and I don't think they are falling below that. Charlotte is on their way up and ahead of NY already. And Chicago is simply a better team on paper. Detroit or MIlwaukee could scrap their way to the #8 as easily as NY could. I don't think they will though, I think Chicago gets that last spot.
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Re: Lawyers 1, Shrink 0 (UTA pick) 

Post#16 » by shrink » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:57 pm

The Knicks have also faced the 5th easiest Strength of Schedule to this point, NBA to this point, so they will face more difficult competition the rest of the way. MIN is mid-pack (.504), but I always wondered if a team's SOS got stronger because MIN was handing them wins? If this is the case with 14-20 NYK, they could be in for a long season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi ... Column=sos

I will admit that so far, they are doing much better than I thought they'd do at the beginning of the season, but most thought they'd do even worse. Many people on the boards over-valued that pick, like it was the #1 in the lottery. I think we'll see fewer teams trading picks without protection in the future.

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