The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[LyricalRico]

Forget McGee. Re-sign Paul Davis!

[miller31time]

Forget McGee. Re-sign Paul Davis!

Davis' per-36 numbers this season...

22.5 points
13.5 assists

PER: 33.1

Um....can you say "White Magic Johnson"?

[Hoopalotta]

I'll go on record here:

1) McGee might well be a savior

2) We should NOT trade him, especially now with his value so low; definitely don't trade him out of spite! patience.

3) We should get him some minutes

I'm really hoping to see an about face from Flip once we flop the switch on this season. Flip's not known as a 'developmental' coach, but he better become one. He CAN teach young guys, even if it hasn't been his focus. We saw it in Vegas and he was obviously enthusiastic.

Hopefully the whole thing will be easier for him to swallow once we have a three guard rotation of Foye, Young and Boinker and the expectations are shattered on the rock. Can he set new attainable goals mid-season and regain some enthusiasm and purpose?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I couldn't disagree more with you TSW on McGee. His PER was 17 last season. Chris Paul compared his athleticism to Dwight Howard's. McGee competed evenly over the summer against Lopez and Oden, drawing positive reviews from impartial coaching--Larry Brown IIRC. In summer league he led the Vegas league in blocks, and also scored efficiently. In NBA preseason for the Wizards, McGee's points, rebounds, blocks, and low fouls were all much better than Oberto's. Javale was very effective in preseason. Yet, he's a flop?

CCJ: I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. My opinion of McGee is actually pretty high -- at least in terms of his physical abilities. I think the kid has LOADS of potential. That said, the fact remains that the team gets significantly worse when he's on the floor.

I think it's worth trying him at PF with Haywood on the floor. I usually prefer a PF (a "stretch 4" as they're called these days) who can shoot the ball (McGee's jumper is inaccurate), but I think it's worth a try.

With Gil out, I think whatever hope they had of entering a competitive part of the season is rapidly disappearing. When it's gone, I hope they'll put McGee out there for significant minutes to see if he's someone who needs game time to develop.

I suspect with Jamison at three Javale would do fine with any of Blatche, Oberto, or Haywood.

Haywood's solid but the team's wretched offensively this season. One adjustment they haven't tried is Jamison at SF with two bigs. (Save for the last win against Philly). I'd like Javale to get some burn as one of the bigs.

[hands11]

I agree with Rico's general assessment, though I'm more optimistic about McGee's future.

Right now, McGee is an athletic freak who can't help this team because he simply does not understand team defense. He's not a lost cause though. He has all the physical tools, he has a motor, and he seems like a smart enough guy off the court. He just needs to work real hard in the gym and in the film room until he can put on some weight and figure out the game of basketball. I think the desire to work on the mental aspects of the game will come with maturity. He's about due for a Blatche-like revelation that he's not going to succeed in the NBA unless he puts in the work.

I would trade him for a good young player like Harden, but I wouldn't just give McGee away in frustration.

I agree with everything but the last sentence. No way I let McGee go. He is to athletic, young and cheap.

What he needs is some burn. I see him as a viable PF or Center. He is exactly the kind of piece we shouldn't let go. Our problem isn't McGee, it's that we don't have one more viable front court player. Berto is below average.

The same people that would let McGee go are probably the same one that would have let Haywood and Blatche go. You simply don't let talented bigs signed to cheap contracts leave your team.

As bad as all this looks I don't think it looks that bad.

Some my not like EG but he is an above average GM. Some are down on Flip but he is a way above average coach. Those are the captains running the ship now. We haven't had it this good in a long time. Give it some time. Let them tweak this some.

Gil has been a nut case since his second or third year here. Talented but very strange and immature. I can see benefits to letting him go or for keeping him. But with his salary, he better have a huge awakening. It's hard to see that working out but it is still possible.

We all know we would be making some moves this year so nothing has really changed really. If anything, we may have more options if we can void his contract.

Right now, I'm just happy we have MM back and there will be shots for him to take. Until EG makes a trade we are mostly just talking in circles.

[hands11]

Given the very very scant minutes that McGee has played and the time that it normally takes to develop a big, I don't understand why so-many of you have dismissed McGee so quickly. Bynum has/had Jabbar tutoring him along with playing time, who does JaVale have?

McGee needs to be set-up to succeed, not set-up to fail. Indeed, play the guy at PF alongside Wood, play him when we play athletic teams, play him instead of O-Man but play the guy.
Play him & coach him and we succeed.

Exactly.

[closg00]

Bump for the NO game. This game was a joint loss at the hands of Caron Butler and his enabler Flip Saunders. Caron was out-of-control but Flip didn't care.

[lupin]

I blame the person who didn't create the game thread following a victory.

[LyricalRico]

I blame the person who didn't create the game thread following a victory.

Flip can only do so much, people.

[closg00]

I blame the person who didn't create the game thread following a victory.

Flip can only do so much, people.

He can do more, that's why he gets paid millions. Why the quick-hook for rookie mistakes but free-reign for the vets? Caron should have been benched or better-yet, Flip should have told him not to jack early in the shot-clock just like he asked Gilbert to do, is this so much to ask?

[hands11]

^ We're still on this "McGee at PF" fallacy? Come on, folks - Larry Nance ain't waking through that door wearing a McGee jersey. Equating McGee with somebody of that caliber is like calling Harold Miner "Baby Jordan". It's ridiculous.

And I can't believe you're putting McGee's bad defense on Flip, as if Flip is asking him to something that no other coach would. Gimme a break. McGee is nothing more than an athletic pipe dream that will disappoint people for years to come. Book it. If we can get somebody like James Harden for McGee+Young, we need to do it ASAP.

The guy in your avatar drafted him...after he already had Blatche and Pecherov on the roster.

I trust my track record on talent. I strongly feel Javale can play PF and I am pretty sure you, nate, and anybody else who thinks he can't are wrong. Nobody said he's the next Larry Nance, but that is exactly who he reminds me of. Flip should be playing McGee 10-15 minutes, at least, every game. It's taken Andray Blatche four years as a pro to get to where he is today. McGee in three years MIGHT BE much better than Blatche.

I have posted about guys like Trevor Ariza only to be told they're no good. Years ago. Same with Sessions.

One thing I can count on is folks doubting me ...

Some things will never change. I started on the McGee at PF thing a while ago and got the same response. I think it would be easier for him to develop there first and then move him to center as he gets stronger.

It is frustrating that we aren't seeing him play either though. With Blatche having an off game you would hope he could get at least some playing time.

He wasnt even dressed tonight.

[hands11]

I blame the person who didn't create the game thread following a victory.

Flip can only do so much, people.

Well a few games ago he called a time out after Gil did one of his patented bring and up and launch a 3. Flip told him I don't want to see that crap anymore.

It just doesn't seem like Flip has done the same to CB. Just tell him to stop it. I'm sure there are some games where CB can drive by someone but a first step isn't his strength. He can drive when the ball is moving and the other team is rotating but from a stand still, he just isn't going to get by many people. He moves aren't that good. He doesn't have what NY or Gil has.

2nd, on a fast break, tell him to find the PG or MM if he is in the games because CB isn't a primary ball handler. But even if Flip doesn't tell him this, you would figure he would figure it out. I would be embarrassed getting called for all those charges.

How can he not see that he is hurting the team when he does that.

It really shouldn't be that complicated. Get the ball in the ball handler hands and try to drive or feed the post as often as possible.

We could have won that game. And if we did that would have been a 2-0 run with DET up next. I still think we can beat DET and go 2-1 but it doesn't have the same effect as a 3-0 run with ATL after that.

It's stupid things like this that just drive you nuts about this team. Flip coached an ok game. He made some timely TOs but he could have done a little better and CB needed to shelve his hero ego and just contribute efficiently.

AJ should be the clear #1 option for this team. End of story. AJ is shooting .481 FG and .375 from 3 with 8 boards and 21 pts and an AFG of .528

CB isn't going anything close to that. CBs AFG is DS and Mike James on this team. Wow.
Granted he takes more shoot then the bench players but he is still worst of all the starters and regular rotation players. He also ranks second worst in turnovers only behind GA. After if you looking at efficiency he Assist to turnover ratio is worst then Nick Young.

Yet he leads the team in minutes per game and is ranked 3 in FG attempts behind GA and AJ.

If you want to make a trade, trade CB. Let this be AJs team. Then pray you can void Gils contract and resign Haywood, Foye and MM. We should be able to build something from there.

Foye, MM, AJ, Blatche, Haywood, McGee, NY, DMAC that's 8 players. Add what you need from there.

A significant drop for the luxury-tax threshold is also projected going into the summer of 2010. If basketball-related income drops by 2.5 percent in 2009-10, league officials are projecting a 2010-11 salary cap of $53.6 million and a luxury-tax line of $65 million.

[lupin]

I blame the person who didn't create the game thread following a victory.

Flip can only do so much, people.

He can do more, that's why he gets paid millions. Why the quick-hook for rookie mistakes but free-reign for the vets? Caron should have been benched or better-yet, Flip should have told him not to jack early in the shot-clock just like he asked Gilbert to do, is this so much to ask?

I still don't see any responsibility-taking.

[Hoopalotta]

Now I'm not on the 'that darn Flip!' wagon by any means, but as a rule, I get mighty miffed at coaches who play guys coming back from injury for 39 minutes in their first game and thus aggravate said condition.

So a few days ago he wasn't fit for play and suddenly he's good for 39 minutes? Such is the case with Mike Miller, unless the inflammation has something to do with his body rejecting the new haircut. I guess we'll have to wait for the MRI to know for sure on that.

But it's Jordanesque really. And no, I don't mean Michael.

[closg00]

Posted this elsewhere but placing it here in-advance of seeing Haywood and AJ running out of gas in the 4th and Flip subbing Orberto for Wood to the delight of the Pistons.

As for tonight, Saunders said that Fabricio Oberto, Dominic McGuire, and McGee were likely to pick up some of Blatche's minutes, but that he would also give some extra burn to Antawn Jamison and Brendan Haywood, since both have been playing so well.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sport ... z0cQifP9NU

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I don't really have the passion for a spirited debate, but I'm bumping this purely because the Flip Saunders Appreciation thread is at the top.

If Flip were a better coach I believe the Wizards would have 5-7 more wins.

I think he's truly been a bad coach this season.

[AceDegenerate]

I agree that Flip has been a bad coach this season. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that EG made the wrong choice @ Coach. For this collection of players, with no plans to reconstruct the roster, there was no reason to dismiss Eddie Jordan. If EG really thought we could get back to that #1 spot in the East from 1 month in 06, he should have kept the coach around who got us there. The roster needed to be overhauled more than a coaching change was needed.

Flip can still be a successful coach in this league, for the right team, the Wizards were never the right team.

If I had my choice, I think the Wizards should have brought in someone like Jeff Van Gundy. Somebody who would have went to EG after 1 week of training camp and told him flat out he can't coach this team. It would have forced his hand to overhaul this roster and swap out these offensive players for defensive ones. He would move Gilbert to SG where he needs to be (to get this 10 assist per game business out of his head), and brought in some LEGIT defensive role players (not McGuire & Stevenson) to fill out this roster.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Thanks, KZ, because that's what I believe, too. This is not a Flip roster.

He's won with other teams, but did have some damned good players like Brandon and later Cassell/Sprewell/Garnett and Chauncey/Rip/Tayshaun/Sheed/Ben. With that type talent, how well did Saunders really have to coach?

Any time you have teams led by prime Brandon, Cassell, and Billups; you're bound to be a better coach!

I think Flip's greatly overrated by those posting in the appreciation thread.

I haven't seen innovation with the lineups. I've seen him value Butler through some really bad play. I've seen Flip live and die by jump shots, and willing to have Stevenson taking the jump shots. I've seen Fab totally displace McGee. I've seen him bench Blatche when Andray was the bright spot. And I believe he's a biased guy, not at all like EJ. I don't see Saunders as basically a good dude.

I think he's a big part of why the chemistry went down the tube and his offense for these players is all wrong.

If Flip were truly a good to great coach, he'd have found a way to win that 5 to 7 games more with this talent. This year's he's been bad IMO. Real bad.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If I had my choice, I think the Wizards should have brought in someone like Jeff Van Gundy. Somebody who would have went to EG after 1 week of training camp and told him flat out he can't coach this team. It would have forced his hand to overhaul this roster and swap out these offensive players for defensive ones. He would move Gilbert to SG where he needs to be (to get this 10 assist per game business out of his head), and brought in some LEGIT defensive role players (not McGuire & Stevenson) to fill out this roster.

I was worried about JVG and Avery Johnson, but in retrospect would have rather had either guy over Flip. It took me years to dislike EJ's approach. (Protect the paint got to me, eventually).

The coaches I preferred were Laimbeer or Dave Joerger. If I were a GM, I would have selected Joerger. This is from when he was D-League Coach of the Year.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Dra ... ards-2041/

Coach of the Year: Dave Joerger, Dakota Wizards

There were many quality coaches in the D-League this season, all with a variety of impressive credentials that led them to a head minor league coaching position. Coaching in the D-League requires a coach to be responsible for all of the drafting and roster moves in addition to normal coaching duties. There was no coach in the league more impressive than Dave Joerger when it came to in game adjustments and roster moves. Joerger has a great understanding of the game and isn’t afraid to be creative with his in-game adjustments. At the age of 31, he has only lost 1 playoff series in his career, and he will surely receive the chance to lead an NBA team if his career continues on its current path.

[nate33]

Let's remember that EJ won 25 games his first season here. That was the same team (plus Arenas and Hayes and minus Michael Jordan) that won 37 games the year before under Doug Collins. Like now, EJ ran a system that wasn't well-suited for the collection of players he had. You can't run a Princeton offense with Kwame Brown and Jerry Stackhouse. EJ needed time to figure out the problem and find a solution. His solution was to acquire a "stretch 4" in Jamison. Thereafter, his offense ran smoothly.

Flip is in a similar position. He is taking over a team with a veteran core, a team which is capable of winning about 40 games without Areans (we've only had "good Arenas" for about 10-15 games, the rest of the games he was either rusty or suspended). Flip is doing worse than that so far because his system isn't right for his players.

If we want to compare Flip to EJ, I think it's only fair to wait until Flip has had a chance to make at least one major trade to get the type of player that fits his system. (One can argue that he had his chance to make such a trade with the Foye/Miller acquisition. If we argue that, though, then we should only judge the 3 games in which Miller plus the Big Four were healthy. We're 2-1 in those 3 games, and they were against top flight competition: Cleveland, OKC and Orlando.)

I wouldn't be disappointed if Flip remained on board as part of the rebuild. I think his track record indicates that he is a good coach, even if he hasn't done very well with the personnel here.