in chandler's absence

[spectre_]

You're the one with the agenda, loon.

Ah, typical. Resort to namecalling when your argument doesn't hold up. Such a weak ploy.

This was a discussion about Chandler and his effect on this team, so I don't know what Okafor has to do with anything. I didn't bring him up, since fatlever asked us not to.

You're the one who brought up Noah's "Dwight Howard" moment vs. TC, insinuating that this was something that hasn't been happening against others as well. Since you hold Okafor in such high regard it shouldn't be too big a reach for you to see that Noah having the same type of game vs him would make your comment pretty much a non starter.

If you like I could post some of Noah's numbers vs other opponents.

As for Wallace and Jackson, they do have an impact. That is why you are making excuses for the team losing when they weren't around. No one is making excuses for our team losing when Chandler is not around, because we've actually been a better team without him.

Um...hello? Been to the Observer lately?

As for the Toronto game, I've typed up about three different responses, but decided to delete them because it makes my point look petty by even arguing otherwise. I'm happy that Chandler had an effect in one of the 25 games he's played in.

Great...so you do concede he had an impact vs. Bosh! That should lead you to realize that if he was playing in our last game vs Toronto an impact might have been made there as well!

He's been an injury-prone non-factor this season.

He's certainly been injury prone.

[spectre_]

TC has ben a huge disappointment and mainly because he's been a walking injury, but the bottom line is we need his skillset. Bigs like Bosh & Lee who can play in the midrange area are matchup nightmares for Gana & Nazr...and Boris (who isn't the best defender anyway) is struggling to fill the role.

I don't care what he replaced, all I care about is him filling that role as best he can. I'm sure there are plenty of others who could do better, but this is the hand we were dealt.

Something > nothing.

[Paydro70]

....again, check where he ranks on this page:
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CHA.HTM

Chandler has been an unmitigated disaster for us; we play nearly TEN points per 100 possessions worse with him on the court. This is mostly a function of being drastically inferior to Nazr Mohammed, but the team actually has played quite well with Diaw at C and with Diop in the game (though the latter is most likely just an artifact of limited minutes).

There is no statistic by which he looks good: he is not in the top 20 centers in literally anything, even his usual standbys of rebounding and shooting percentages, and is dead last in turnover rate.

We have spent most of the season being a below-average team, both in terms of record and point differential. Without Chandler, we are a much better team, and our performance in the last few games illustrates the point. Seriously, even if you subtract 10 points of scoring margin in the last 7 games, so that we lose to both the Cavs and the Bulls, our margin is STILL better than the first 27 games.

[spectre_]

Paydro, it's not about his overall stats...it's the little things that we need as a team. Is he the best (or even good?) at it? Not necessarily. But without it completely we have only inferior options.

1) shot blocking presence
2) can set a high pick
3) defense along the perimeter

He might not block many shots...but he can at least change shots. In that high screen and roll Rose was devastating us with I think he'd have had a lot more luck altering Rose's shot than Nazr. Crash in this example was an even better answer...thankfully their coach didn't exploit that more (or thankfully Salmons choked).

He gets offensvie fouls called on him as much as Mek did, so he's not been great at it. Course he has been injured the entire time he's been here, but regardless...after him we have no bigs that can do it.

He's the only big besides Boris who can guard the perimeter bigs.

Something > nothing.

BTW...what are the stats in regards to rebounding in Fats' OP? Seems we used to at least break even but lately we have been getting outboarded.

[Rich4114]

Not sure why LB didn't play Gana in the 3rd against the Bulls when Rose was going nuts or at all last night against the Knicks.

Isn't he meant to be a shot blocking/defensive anchor type? Isn't that why we went out and got him? To me, no TC means start Gana and still play Nazzy off the bench. If Gana gets into foul trouble, make adjustments but LB better not keep p*ssing and moaning in the papers about our lack of an inside defensive player with TC being out if he isn't going to play Gana - an inside defensive player - a lick of playing time.

I was thinking the same thing. Gana has been our best defensive big man this season when he sees the court, but LB insists on making Boris our C most of the 2nd half. Has Gana played poorly when called upon yet? I'd say not at all. On top of that, he rebounds well. He's horrendous offensively, but that's not what we'd expect him to do (and our guys should know not to try dishing it to him unless it's for a dunk or to move the ball around.

[Rich4114]

Also, as bad as Tyson has been this season - i would play him at C any day over Boris. Nobody is worse on this team defensively than Boris except maybe DJ, but at least DJ has a partial excuse (his size). I hope TC comes back and is healthy to help defend the post. Of course, most of the season he hasn't done that because he's a walking foul machine. I think if it were up to me I would play Diop a lot more when our interior D broke down, or simply move to a damn zone D and let teams beat us with 3pters. Play the percentages.

[thruthefire]

In fact...just 2 weeks vs. NOLA and Okafor he put up 17 points and 18 boards

Eight and 10 of which came when Okafor was off the court.

But yeah, Noah is a fine big, and I think TC could have helped us against TOR and NY. Hopefully he can get back soon, because Nazr needs to be coming off the bench.

[W_HAMILTON]

You're the one who brought up Noah's "Dwight Howard" moment vs. TC, insinuating that this was something that hasn't been happening against others as well.

No, you're the one who said Chandler would have been a help against Chicago, when in fact he wasn't the last time he played. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Chandler was the reason we beat Toronto because he helped stop Bosh, then say he would have helped us beat Chicago when he got destroyed by Noah the last time he played. And Noah had a career-high against us in that game, so, no, he hasn't been having that type of performance this year (or any other year he's played).

Um...hello? Been to the Observer lately?

If you are talking about Larry Brown having a senile senior moment and saying that Chandler is our most important player, yes, I have. LOL

Great...so you do concede he had an impact vs. Bosh! That should lead you to realize that if he was playing in our last game vs Toronto an impact might have been made there as well!

Actually, one of my responses was that if we had a few less turnovers, we would have beaten Toronto anyway -- on the road no less. Another of my responses was that an almost 40-point win is not the result of any one player, much less someone of Chandler's caliber.

He's certainly been injury prone.

And a non-factor. He's made two guys that we had written off by the end of last year look like legitimate contributors this year. I'm still not sure if it's because they are really any good, or just because we've had such crap contribution from our starting center that their contributions look good.

[W_HAMILTON]

Something > nothing.

Usually, but the something doesn't really make much of a difference over the nothing in this case. The stats actually might say we are better without Chandler, but I would say over the course of the season, it would probably end up being a wash, with or without him. And that's a damning indictment.

[Paydro70]

Paydro, it's not about his overall stats...it's the little things that we need as a team. Is he the best (or even good?) at it? Not necessarily. But without it completely we have only inferior options.

1) shot blocking presence
2) can set a high pick
3) defense along the perimeter

He might not block many shots...but he can at least change shots. In that high screen and roll Rose was devastating us with I think he'd have had a lot more luck altering Rose's shot than Nazr. Crash in this example was an even better answer...thankfully their coach didn't exploit that more (or thankfully Salmons choked).

He gets offensvie fouls called on him as much as Mek did, so he's not been great at it. Course he has been injured the entire time he's been here, but regardless...after him we have no bigs that can do it.

He's the only big besides Boris who can guard the perimeter bigs.

Something > nothing.

BTW...what are the stats in regards to rebounding in Fats' OP? Seems we used to at least break even but lately we have been getting outboarded.

We don't have inferior options, that's just it. The question at hand is how our team plays without him. The answer is an unequivocal "better." Tyson does improve our team rebounding vs. Diaw and Diop at C, but not vs. Mohammed. We block slightly more shots with him on the court, but allow a higher shooting percentage and shoot a worse one, commit more fouls and draw fewer. (Keep in mind these are season-long, so they include lots of backup minutes and not just the 9 games where he didn't play at all).

Does that mean he should never play? No, he probably could be a helpful contributor. Has he shown any reason to deserve even 26mpg? No. If I'm offered the choice of 0mpg Tyson or 26mpg Tyson, I think the preponderance of the evidence is that I should pick 0. I also think that Diop should probably be given more minutes, because he's been fairly effective in those limited opportunities.

[spectre_]

No, you're the one who said Chandler would have been a help against Chicago, when in fact he wasn't the last time he played. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Chandler was the reason we beat Toronto because he helped stop Bosh, then say he would have helped us beat Chicago when he got destroyed by Noah the last time he played. And Noah had a career-high against us in that game, so, no, he hasn't been having that type of performance this year (or any other year he's played).

I wasn't talking about stopping Noah...I was talking about limiting Rose's penetration. He scored something like 13 points the first game...mid 20s the 2nd. Noah has been getting his numbers pretty much regardless of his competition.

Players impact the game in more than one way y'know. He helped stopped Bosh. He could have helped vs. the the points in the paint vs Chicago.

Speaking of which...why has our opponents' points in the paint jumped so much lately? We gave up something like 50-60 points in the paint vs. NY the other night.

If you are talking about Larry Brown having a senile senior moment and saying that Chandler is our most important player, yes, I have. LOL

Since you're the one wanting Bernie BIckerstaff back forgive me for not giving you much credibility on anything in regards to coaches. I certainly give his opinion a heckuva lot more weight than yours.

I personally don't think TC is the most important defensive player...but I know we're missing his skillset.

Actually, one of my responses was that if we had a few less turnovers, we would have beaten Toronto anyway -- on the road no less. Another of my responses was that an almost 40-point win is not the result of any one player, much less someone of Chandler's caliber.

Having less TOs might have changed the outcome and very well could have. Due to how he played vs. Bosh the game before however having TC could only have hleped.

You were right on one thing...those rationales you're throwing out there to downplay his impact vs Toronto certainly does appear petty.

[spectre_]

We don't have inferior options, that's just it. The question at hand is how our team plays without him. The answer is an unequivocal "better." Tyson does improve our team rebounding vs. Diaw and Diop at C, but not vs. Mohammed. We block slightly more shots with him on the court, but allow a higher shooting percentage and shoot a worse one, commit more fouls and draw fewer. (Keep in mind these are season-long, so they include lots of backup minutes and not just the 9 games where he didn't play at all).

Does that mean he should never play? No, he probably could be a helpful contributor. Has he shown any reason to deserve even 26mpg? No. If I'm offered the choice of 0mpg Tyson or 26mpg Tyson, I think the preponderance of the evidence is that I should pick 0. I also think that Diop should probably be given more minutes, because he's been fairly effective in those limited opportunities.

As you said you're throwing out full season stats when we all know he'd sit since last year...but to say we don't have inferior options on those 3 points is just astounding to me. Neither Nazr nor Gana can do that at all; TC is at least somewhat passable.

He's been injured all season long, but he'd started to put together some decent games. No doubt LB has been giving him more PT trying to get him into game shape. Of course he was going to struggle, yet some just ignore that and expect him to do everything perfectly.

That "preponderance of the evidence" isn't evidence at all in that regard.

[W_HAMILTON]

I wasn't talking about stopping Noah...I was talking about limiting Rose's penetration. He scored something like 13 points the first game...mid 20s the 2nd. Noah has been getting his numbers pretty much regardless of his competition.

Yeah, maybe Rose had to pick up the scoring slack since Chandler wasn't around to let Noah go for a career high again.

Since you're the one wanting Bernie BIckerstaff back forgive me for not giving you much credibility on anything in regards to coaches. I certainly give his opinion a heckuva lot more weight than yours.

I haven't said anything about Bernie in years. Even though now that you bring him up, it is funny to think that our best season without him was like a two-game improvement over his much less talented teams.

And you can give Brown's opinion all the weight you want, but it certainly doesn't mean that he hasn't been wrong as hell in several circumstances since joining our team. This is yet another example. Larry has a soft spot for sh*t players.

You were right on one thing...those rationales you're throwing out there to downplay his impact vs Toronto certainly does appear petty.

You're right (for once). Let us not take away Chandler's one impact game this season.

[Paydro70]

As you said you're throwing out full season stats when we all know he'd sit since last year...but to say we don't have inferior options on those 3 points is just astounding to me. Neither Nazr nor Gana can do that at all; TC is at least somewhat passable.

He's been injured all season long, but he'd started to put together some decent games. No doubt LB has been giving him more PT trying to get him into game shape. Of course he was going to struggle, yet some just ignore that and expect him to do everything perfectly.

That "preponderance of the evidence" isn't evidence at all in that regard.

I didn't say anything about doing everything perfectly. I'd like it if he did something well.

I honestly don't care if he's playing hurt, is still recovering from the old injury, or just is permanently damaged/old/finished. He's not playing well; the team is now 6-4 without him and had a huge +/- differential in the games he played. The advantages he offers over Diop and Diaw are apparently not enough to make up for the enormous problems that he causes the team, and I am not particularly interested in watching him try, perhaps futilely, to overcome those problems when he returns from yet another injury. The fact that he's recovering slower than expected does not encourage me at all that he should be playing more than spot minutes when he does return.

[Fred Williamson]

any news on Tyson?

[arh1109]

We seem to be doing fine without him so no need to rush him back. If we can avoid injury this month then I wouldn't mind keeping him out until after the all star break.

[Paydro70]

Keep him out as long as we can, at this point.... 6-3 without him.

[Rich4114]

Honestly, I don't see him as being anything more than a bench player at this point. Nazr and Diop are playing good ball right now and both seem more efficient than Chandler. Diop is a better shot blocker while Nazr is a better scorer. all of them can rebound.