Real "anchor" of your defense?

[SichtingLives]

^^^ drza these are all good points, I've been following this thread and I think both you and Sully are both mostly correct at the same time. It's a matter of opinion who is more instrumental to the overall defensive effort of the team...the stats to me point to KG being better prior to this season, my eyes tell me the same. However I also believe the fact that there hasn't been a very big sample size of Perk being out with KG still in the lineup makes it hard to compare the 5 man differentials accurately. But that's all in the past now and I'm not too concerned with what's already been done.

Now to this season, I think Perk is even better than he was last year as a 1 on 1 defender. He has his troubles with a few centers but for the most part he's a top 3 defender in the paint, top 5 for sure. In pointing out that KG definitely has lost a step, I don't want to neglect that fact that he is still a very capable defender. You can't fully compare the two because Perk is a legit 5 and KG is a mobile 4 who has the range to step out and guard other mobile 4's, whereas Perk cannot. But at the same time, KG can't bang with the bigs like Perk can. I believe it's harder to find a banger like Perk than an agile 4 in the NBA, so although I think they both have roughly the same impact at their respective postions, I give Perks skills the slight nod for being a more valued commodity. However.....

KG's vocal impact on the court is unrivaled, nevermind on this team but possibly in the entire league. That's huge. i think the whole team communicates well defensively but Kg is the guy who brought that to this franchise in the first place. I'm pretty sure you guys already pointed this out, but KG's presence, his enthusiasm and his leadership in commandeering the team is what truly sets him apart. So using my own convoluted mathematical equation, I give Perk the slight edge in physical capabilities at this point, but I give KG the edge in on-court leadership....by a good amount. In my book that puts KG ahead of Perk overall, but weighing the fact that physical ability is worth more to me than intangibles, the difference is negligible and I just call it even. We're damn lucky to have both of these guys.

[Harison]

Most of you who think this is some sort of walk for Garnett still think it is 2008 when he was every aspect of this team's defense. But it isn't anymore and he isn't anymore. Kendrick Perkins is this team's shot blocker and primary rebounder, as well as premier low post defender.

Sorry, I dont get you. You claim advanced stats doesnt really matter, even if its based on 550+ minutes, - I dont agree, and drza has a valid point BACKED UP with evidence, but fine, lets ignore stats for a minute. What do our EYES tells us? Before KG was injuried in 2009, who had the best defense in the NBA? I think you know the answer. What happened AFTER? Celtics defense got worse and worse, and in the Playoffs it was barely average, on par with Bulls - who had 18th of 30 defensive rating. That was with Perkins anchoring Celtics defense.

Bottom line is - KG was and still is THE anchor of Celtics defense, NOT Perkins. Its proven FACT by both advanced stats and what we see on the court.

[Pogue Mahone]

Most of you who think this is some sort of walk for Garnett still think it is 2008 when he was every aspect of this team's defense. But it isn't anymore and he isn't anymore. Kendrick Perkins is this team's shot blocker and primary rebounder, as well as premier low post defender.

Sorry, I dont get you. You claim advanced stats doesnt really matter, even if its based on 550+ minutes, - I dont agree, and drza has a valid point BACKED UP with evidence, but fine, lets ignore stats for a minute. What do our EYES tells us? Before KG was injuried in 2009, who had the best defense in the NBA? I think you know the answer. What happened AFTER? Celtics defense got worse and worse, and in the Playoffs it was barely average, on par with Bulls - who had 18th of 30 defensive rating. That was with Perkins anchoring Celtics defense.

Bottom line is - KG was and still is THE anchor of Celtics defense, NOT Perkins. Its proven FACT by both advanced stats and what we see on the court.

Conversely, a shot-hungry, drama queen replacement, who was gifted minutes and opportunity due to teammates' injuries, and, thereby, stopped working hard/effectively on defense, was such a drastic drop-off from not only KG but also from Powe, Scalabrine and even Mikki Moore (when paired with Perkins) that he torpedoed the Celtics' chances to compete on the defensive end.

If anyone dismisses that, I suggest you re-read some quotes attributed to Ainge regarding Davis' defensive (actually it was quite offensive) "performance", particularly in the playoffs. Additionally, despite the small sample, both regular season and post-season unit numbers support that contention. Even if you don't buy into the numbers completely, at minimum, they are an indicator.

08-09 + 09 Post:

Perk+3+Davis = 634.67 MP ... 109.47 OE / 110.87 DE
Perk+3+Powe = 91.23 MP ... 109.94 OE / 102.98 DE
Perk+3+Moore = 47.15 MP ... 109.20 OE / 101.14 DE
Perk+3+Scal = 83.64 MP ... 110.76 OE / 98.77 DE

One could argue that Davis' units were against starters. Fair enough. In the regular season, when combined with Perkins+3, the units put up 114.62 DE and approximately half those minutes were off the bench. Scalabrine's cameo as a starter, before becoming concussed, in admittedly a very small sample, saw the unit put forth a 105.80 DE (and was even better in the post-season.

Lastly, I would point to the basketball maxim of being able to hide one player in your defensive scheme. That player is Ray Allen. My take on it is that a pairing of Davis and Perkins is possibly the worst pairing of what was available. The reason being is that Perkins is a post-defender with above average help defense. Davis is, at best, mediocre as a defender. The reason being, even when he is in position, he just doesn't affect the play. Conversely, Powe for all his poor rotations, still recovered and affected the play. Another reason that Davis is poor is his inability to rebound consistently on the defensive end. His help defense is, at best, average (leaning to mediocre) because even if he rotates, he lacks the length or quickness to affect the play.

So, my take is that Perkins' defensive performance, if anything, were obfuscated by the play of his teammates. KG is an all-time great help defender but he does have his problems defending on the block. Perkins is top-3 in the league (I would put Nene and Duncan above him) as a post defender. Basketball is a game of synergy. The harder thing to fill, defensively, imo, is an above average lane-clogging, help-defending, lockdown post defender. That is why, with as great as KG is, I give the nod to Perkins.

[Harison]

So, my take is that Perkins' defensive performance, if anything, were obfuscated by the play of his teammates. KG is an all-time great help defender but he does have his problems defending on the block. Perkins is top-3 in the league (I would put Nene and Duncan above him) as a post defender. Basketball is a game of synergy. The harder thing to fill, defensively, imo, is an above average lane-clogging, help-defending, lockdown post defender. That is why, with as great as KG is, I give the nod to Perkins.

If you would be right, then KG + bigs (other than Perk) would produced WORSE numbers than Perkins with said bigs, but as we see from numbers, we have the opposite situation. I have a lot of respect for Perk, but lets not get overboard.

[Pogue Mahone]

If you would be right, then KG + bigs (other than Perk) would produced WORSE numbers than Perkins with said bigs, but as we see from numbers, we have the opposite situation. I have a lot of respect for Perk, but lets not get overboard.

No, perhaps I didn't clearly state my position. Let me try again.

Perkins + KG = ideal pairing .. the reason being, elite help defender + elite post defender + elite lane clogging + elite shot altering + elite defensive rebounding

Perkins+3 and one of Powe/Scalabrine/Moore were all much better than league average as a defensive unit. The reason being, imo, they only had to hide one poor defender (Ray Allen) in their defensive scheme.

Perkins+3 and Davis was and is abysmal. My take is that because it was missing the aspect of help defense, defensive rebounding (though, Rondo's superhuman effort in this regard certainly helped in the playoffs.) Absent that, if Perkins was blitzing the pick, Davis is unable to consistently do anything except perhaps flop and attempt to draw a charge once penetration comes. Once you compound that with the fact that Pierce, Rondo and Perkins are attempting to cover for not only one but now two piss poor defenders AND the defensive attributes that Davis does possess are a duplication of what is already there (but no where near as good as those of Perkins.) If you are playing Glen Davis AND his post counterpart IS not a fantastic help defender, you can't play Ray Allen at SG.

The reason Davis and KG can co-exist is that Davis can do some defensive chores in a similar way to Perkins but, as stated, no where near as well. These are the chores that KG is ill-suited for (post-defense, lane clogging, etc.)

Do those deficiencies make KG poor, overall, as a defender? Heck no. It is the same way that discounting Perkins for his deficiencies (covering in space, most notably) doesn't exclude him from being a dynamite defender.

Besides, it all depends on how you define "anchor". As an adjective, "anchor" can mean "hard-set" or "fixed". As a noun, "pillar". As a verb, "to tie", "to fasten" or "to imbed."

All those things, to me, sound like anchor is a sedentary object. They sound more like they are describing Kendrick Perkins ability to cover one-on-one in the post and to clog the lane, without much or very little help. If all the players in a good defensive system are attached to a string, Kendrick Perkins is the anchor that keeps the rest of the defense well-rooted.

In fact, I would argue that Garnett is the antithesis of an anchor (active, energetic, mobile, moving.)

[Harison]

Pogue Mahone, I'm still not sure what you are saying. You yourself admit KG + Davis can co-exist (and as stats shows, end result not so much difference from KG + Perk, even though he is a better defender than Baby), but then you make excuses for Perk + Baby? Fact is, Celtics needs KG as an anchor. Perkins? Not as much. So who is the real anchor? If Garnett manages to show Davis or w/e in the post almost as good as Perkins, just shows another level of brilliance. Garnett plugs all the holes in the defense and makes it tick, can Perkins do that? No.

KG wasnt missing many games before last season, and many were saying Celtics All-time great defense was because of Thibodeu, Perkins, Rondo, w/e, but where exactly was this defense when KG got injured? Thats right, it went down the drain, with Perkins as anchor, of course.

And btw, the idea Garnett cant defend post isnt right either, its just not ideal due to his thin frame, but when its needed, KG defends physical centers just fine. Some games ago he was schooling Dwight, before that - Shaq and Duncan.

Bottom line: Perkins needs Garnett, KG doesnt need Perkins to anchor Celtics defense. Pairing is perfect, but one piece is vital, guess which is it?

[drza]

Perkins+3 and Davis was and is abysmal. My take is that because it was missing the aspect of help defense, defensive rebounding (though, Rondo's superhuman effort in this regard certainly helped in the playoffs.) Absent that, if Perkins was blitzing the pick, Davis is unable to consistently do anything except perhaps flop and attempt to draw a charge once penetration comes. Once you compound that with the fact that Pierce, Rondo and Perkins are attempting to cover for not only one but now two piss poor defenders AND the defensive attributes that Davis does possess are a duplication of what is already there (but no where near as good as those of Perkins.) If you are playing Glen Davis AND his post counterpart IS not a fantastic help defender, you can't play Ray Allen at SG.

The reason Davis and KG can co-exist is that Davis can do some defensive chores in a similar way to Perkins but, as stated, no where near as well. These are the chores that KG is ill-suited for (post-defense, lane clogging, etc.)

Do those deficiencies make KG poor, overall, as a defender? Heck no. It is the same way that discounting Perkins for his deficiencies (covering in space, most notably) doesn't exclude him from being a dynamite defender.

This is incredibly tortured logic that eventually completely contradicts your stance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be claiming that Perk is the defensive anchor because his "lane-clogging, help-defending, lockdown post defense" is so vital to the defense that Garnett can't replace it. That Baby is such a bad defender that a defensive unit can't be expected to play well with both he and Ray on the floor, which is why the Perk+Baby+3 defense sucks. But that if you replace Perk with KG the defense suddenly is strong again even with both Baby and Ray on the floor...but only because Baby can do what Perk does, but in a terrible way? Only, Perk is the key to the defense?

Can you see the trap that you fall into with that line of logic? There are 2 choices here. Either:

1) Perk is the anchor to the defense because he provides "lane-clogging, help-defending, lockdown post defender" in a way that Garnett can't duplicate. Or,

2) The Celtics defense is elite as long as ANY big man, even a terrible defender like Baby, is there to play next to KG and the other 3 starters.

Do you see? If Perk is the key to the defense, there is no way that a poor defender like Baby could even remotely fill in for Perk and have the defense stay strong. Because there's no way that you can hide your worst defender if he has to provide what the team could only get from their best defender.

And if the defense can remain strong even with Perkins' job being done by a bad replacement, doesn't that in fact suggest that Perkins' role isn't quite as vital as you are arguing?

(ETA: I initially started this post off by pointing out that the Perk+Powe+3 defensive numbers were also bad which would also seem to invalidate your stance, but I don't want to muddy the point. If you respond to me at all, I would like it to be for the above logic twists and if need be we can get to some of the other issues later)