Why did the Jazz accomplish so little from 88-95?

[lorak]

I've learned from Stockton fans that he was a super dominate player. He led the league in assists nine times. His Win Share and Offense Rating numbers are through the roof. The only problem was idiot sportswriters didn't recognize his greatness due to a bias against short pasty white guys by short pasty white sportswriters.

Sportswriters recognize his greatness because during his prime and after that, for almost decade he was usually second (behind Magic) or first point guard in the NBA:

(place among point guards in All NBA Teams)
1988 (his first season as starter) - 2nd (Magic 1st)
1989 - 2nd (tied with KJ, Magic 1st)
1990 - 2nd (tied with KJ, Magic 1st)
1991 - 3rd (Magic 1st, KJ 2nd)
1992 - 1st (tied with Hardaway)
1993 - 2nd (Price 1st)
1994 - 1st
1995 - 1st (tied with Penny)
1996 - 2nd (tied with Payton, Penny 1st)

Show me other point guards not named Ervin Johnson who were year by year during 9 season 8 times first or second best in the league. Rally, please do it, how many point guards were so good for so long period of time? West, Oscar, probably Cousy, maybe Frazier, Kidd, who else?
And what competition they faced, because Stockton fight with Magic, Tim Hardaway, Penny, Isiah, Payton, KJ, Porter or Price. You know, it’s not too hard to be on the top for year or two, but for almost decade?! Don’t you think that says something about player?

He was never a top 5 player in the league during his career.

But during his prime (well, almost decade) he usually was first or second (behind Magic) point guard in the league. How many point guards in entire NBA history was at the top of position for so long (9 years!) period of time? So stop acting like crazy (all that talk about domination) and focus on facts.

[lorak]

Stockton's MVP votes (high placing: 7th. Most of the time out of the top 10) has been much discussed, but in particular check out this stretch:

91 - 12th - Finished behind Terry Porter
92 - 12th - Finished behind Mark Price
93 - 10th - Finished behind Mark Price
94 - 11th - Finished behind Mark Price

In 91 and 92 Stockton peaked statistically, putting up 17/14/2.7+ on .60 TS% on 54 and 55 win Jazz teams. So how'd he finish behind Terry Porter and Marc Price, who were similar PG 2nd bananas on elite teams?

Stockton's legacy is built on longevity and durability and being a great team guy, but his peak impact and place in the league has definitely been overrated over time.

MVP didn’t say much about player skill, how good he was, because team record and others factors are count in this voting. When we want find out how good player was in the past better way to evaluate will be look at All NBA selections, so you better check this:

(place among point guards in All NBA Teams)
1988 (his first season as starter) - 2nd (Magic 1st)
1989 - 2nd (tied with KJ, Magic 1st)
1990 - 2nd (tied with KJ, Magic 1st)
1991 - 3rd (Magic 1st, KJ 2nd)
1992 - 1st (tied with Hardaway)
1993 - 2nd (Price 1st)
1994 - 1st
1995 - 1st (tied with Penny)
1996 - 2nd (tied with Payton, Penny 1st)

[lorak]

And looking at that playoff series again. Malone put up 30/16. Stockton put up 27/14. And they got swept. WOW

Thank you! That’s perfect example how Jazz were weak offensively outside of Malone and Stockton. Utah1989 against Warriors in playoffs: Hansen .357 eFG, Bailey .353 eFG, Eaton .471 eFG, Griffith .469 eFG.

[JordansBulls]

When people wanna make excuses for certain players, they always place all the blame on the supporting cast. The supporting cast sucked.

Then they'll try to take away from other players who DID get it done by overrating their supporting cast. "X only won because he was always surrounded by a good supporting cast."

And then there's people like you who don't like an excuse for anything, thinking your position is the high road. Pathetic.

I'm not going to fault them for losing to teams with better records, unless it is in the finals. However, how many times did the Jazz lose with HCA during that time period?

1989, 1990 and 1995 (all 3x in the first round)

[FJS]

Suporting cast was weak.
It's not a secret that SLC it's not a place where players want to go. They most of Jazz players since they are in Utah are/were Utah Jazz picks.
So for years Jazz have played without FA and played only with thier picks... So it's difficult to make a great suporting cast with that.

[Baller 24]

Suporting cast was weak.
It's not a secret that SLC it's not a place where players want to go. They most of Jazz players since they are in Utah are/were Utah Jazz picks.
So for years Jazz have played without FA and played only with thier picks... So it's difficult to make a great suporting cast with that.

Don't blame the supporting cast, Tim Duncan did it, Hakeem did it (and on the way beat the Jazz in '94 and '95), Rick Barry did it, LeBron almost did it. Malone was great---flat out dominant, but if Stockton is as GREAT as his numbers state, there should be no excuses, they should have won a tittle.

[sp6r=underrated]

Suporting cast was weak.
It's not a secret that SLC it's not a place where players want to go. They most of Jazz players since they are in Utah are/were Utah Jazz picks.
So for years Jazz have played without FA and played only with thier picks... So it's difficult to make a great suporting cast with that.

lol. In '86-87, the year before Stockton was a starter, they had those guys and won 44 games. Stockton comes in, puts up big numbers, and they win 47. Completely unreasonable to dismiss this question by saying that anything bad that ever happened to Stockton & Malone had to be because their supporting cast was infinitely worse than everyone. That supporting cast was good enough to make a winning team with Malone even without Stockton as starter, there can be absolutely no debate that much worse supporting casts have existed, and also no real debate that Stockton clearly didn't make a night & day difference at least when he first was putting up those big numbers.

I also object to dismissing Eaton as just "a great defensive man". In that era, the Jazz had the dominant defense in the entire league (it was clearly better than the Malone & Stockton led offense), and Eaton was far and away the dominant reason for that with blocking numbers that put anyone in the post-Russell era of basketball to shame. C'mon, some credit where credit's due.

[Baller 24]

Don't even bother, it's all become repetitive by Stockton supporters.

[kooldude]

It's quite simple: if Stockton had Hakeem instead of the vastly overrated Malone, they would have went on multiple playoffs sweeps to titles and the NBA would have to change rules for them. It's science.

[ThaRegul8r]

When people wanna make excuses for certain players, they always place all the blame on the supporting cast. The supporting cast sucked.

Then they'll try to take away from other players who DID get it done by overrating their supporting cast. "X only won because he was always surrounded by a good supporting cast."

And then there's people like you who don't like an excuse for anything, thinking your position is the high road. Pathetic.

Ad hominems are truly the sign of an intelligent discussion.

[lorak]

Suporting cast was weak.
It's not a secret that SLC it's not a place where players want to go. They most of Jazz players since they are in Utah are/were Utah Jazz picks.
So for years Jazz have played without FA and played only with thier picks... So it's difficult to make a great suporting cast with that.

Don't blame the supporting cast, Tim Duncan did it, Hakeem did it (and on the way beat the Jazz in '94 and '95), Rick Barry did it, LeBron almost did it. Malone was great---flat out dominant, but if Stockton is as GREAT as his numbers state, there should be no excuses, they should have won a tittle.

Dr Mufasa give us perfect example how weak was supporting cast of Utah Jazz: Utah1989 against Warriors in playoffs: Hansen .357 eFG, Bailey .353 eFG, Eaton .471 eFG, Griffith .469 eFG.

And if you really believe in “there should be no excuses” explain how it’s possible that during five consecutive seasons Hakeem Olajuwon four times can’t get past first round and once even didn’t advance to playoffs? He wasn’t that good? Or why Steve Nash never won title? Wasn’t that good? I think you’ll bring up excuses immediately in cases of this players…

[lorak]

It's quite simple: if Stockton had Hakeem instead of the vastly overrated Malone, they would have went on multiple playoffs sweeps to titles and the NBA would have to change rules for them. It's science.

Quoting tsherkin: "Yay, when rational argumentation breaks down, sarcasm for the win!"

[Baller 24]

Dr Mufasa give us perfect example how weak was supporting cast of Utah Jazz: Utah1989 against Warriors in playoffs: Hansen .357 eFG, Bailey .353 eFG, Eaton .471 eFG, Griffith .469 eFG.

And if you really believe in “there should be no excuses” explain how it’s possible that during five consecutive seasons Hakeem Olajuwon four times can’t get past first round and once even didn’t advance to playoffs? He wasn’t that good? Or why Steve Nash never won title? Wasn’t that good? I think you’ll bring up excuses immediately in cases of this players…

Nope, those Suns were facing an amazing defensive team in the 2005 and 2007 Spurs, the supporting cast played absolutely amazing, Amar'e had quite a few explosive 35+PT games, Joe Johnson being hurt might have did something in '05, while in '07 it was clear the suspensions to the key players hurt the Suns. Outside of injuries and suspensions, the Suns supporting cast played amazing..

Regardless of the situation, those Jazz teams won 60 games multiple times in a season, they won 50+ games for almost an entire decade, teams with terrible supporting casts possibly can't do that. But in the biggest of stages, they couldn't perform.

[FJS]

I ask myself how a former MVPs like Nash and O'neal (still in a 18ppg/8) with Amare for 53 games... with Richardson, Hill or Barbosa who are above the averages players of the league missed the playoff last year...

[Baller 24]

I ask myself how a former MVPs like Nash and O'neal (still in a 18ppg/8) with Amare for 53 games... with Richardson, Hill or Barbosa who are above the averages players of the league missed the playoff last year...

lol, They missed the playoffs because Terry Porter is a mindless idiot when it comes to coaching.

[FJS]

Everybody knows that playoff it's very different that regular season.
It's because that a dominant team like Suns have a hard time eliminating LAL and LAC And they lost vs Mavs in 2006. Or the cannot won vs a lower seeder Spurs in 2005 or 2007.
Or Mavs losing vs GSW in 2007. Sonics vs Nuggets in 1994. Heat vs Knicks in 1999. Spurs in 00 vs Suns.

Or how the awesome Sacramento kings from 98-99 to 04-05 only made one WCF and exited in 3 times in the first round...

[Baller 24]

Everybody knows that playoff it's very different that regular season.
It's because that a dominant team like Suns have a hard time eliminating LAL and LAC And they lost vs Mavs in 2006.

The Suns replaced Joe Johnson, Amar'e, and Q. Richardson from the previous season (all of whom were starters) with Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Eddie House, Pat Burke, and James Jones. The Clippers that season had more talent same with the Mavs...I still fail to recognize your points. Those Suns played fantastic in the playoffs, both Nash and Amar'e played fantastic in '05 and '07, it's just that the Spurs team defense was just good enough to contain them, although '07 is a completely different story due to the suspensions (which many including myself believe if they didn't happen, we'd have the '07 Suns as champions).

[lorak]

I ask myself how a former MVPs like Nash and O'neal (still in a 18ppg/8) with Amare for 53 games... with Richardson, Hill or Barbosa who are above the averages players of the league missed the playoff last year...

lol, They missed the playoffs because Terry Porter is a mindless idiot when it comes to coaching.

And here we go – excuses started!
So you see Baller? You are the one who starts making excuses for player which you defending.

[Baller 24]

And here we go – excuses started!
So you see Baller? You are the one who starts making excuses for player which you defending.

Excuses? lol they had a coaching change, he started out terrible, and they fired him. How's that an excuse? It's actually a fact, because they started playing a lot better under Gentry.

[lorak]

So offensively weak (in comparison to top offensive teams in the league) Jazz supporting cast in late 80s and early 90s isn’t a fact?