O'Brien voices his displeasure; Granger and Dunleavy agree

[Kuq_e_Zi91]

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider ... s_off.html
Posted by Mike Wells

O'Brien let his team know about his displeasure with their slow starts when he was talking to them at halftime, then suddenly started dropping some expletives at them before walking out the locker room. I was told O'Brien basically called them soft (in not so gentle words, though) after watching some first half clips.

"He got into our (butts)," Danny Granger said. "We're not always tied together as a team. We make selfish plays on offense and defense. We argue with each other instead of getting mad at the other team. We deserve everything he told us. We can't get down 25 points every game we play."

"I think sometimes it can be attributed to effort, other times it can be attributed to understanding what we're trying to do," swingman Mike Dunleavy said. "It seems like we have a hard time following through what we're told to do on a daily and weekly basis. We're always playing catch up. Certainly more effort and desire will help that, but at some point we have to start figuring things out and know where we're supposed to be."

Can't say I disagree with Coach here. He probably told them what we would say to the players after that abysmal showing in the first half.

The comments from Granger and Dunleavy are what worry me. Last year, even amidst all of the losing, the chemistry was there, you could see the camaraderie, and the games were close. This year, however, the team seems to be divided and lost without direction. I'm not sure what the reason is, but something needs to happen. I don't think you can expect to ride out another half of the season with the tension in that locker room right now.

A concern of mine is I don't see a vocal leader on this team. Last year, it was clearly Jarrett Jack and I think the rest of the team respected him because he was looking out for the best interest of the team. He wasn't afraid to rip into TJ when he was being selfish. I just don't see that this year. Granger should be that guy, but I don't think he has it in him to get after his teammates. He's more of a lead by example type.

Basically, we're lost and a complete mess.

[Gremz]

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2010/01/obrien_goes_off.html
Posted by Mike Wells

O'Brien let his team know about his displeasure with their slow starts when he was talking to them at halftime, then suddenly started dropping some expletives at them before walking out the locker room. I was told O'Brien basically called them soft (in not so gentle words, though) after watching some first half clips.

"He got into our (butts)," Danny Granger said. "We're not always tied together as a team. We make selfish plays on offense and defense. We argue with each other instead of getting mad at the other team. We deserve everything he told us. We can't get down 25 points every game we play."

"I think sometimes it can be attributed to effort, other times it can be attributed to understanding what we're trying to do," swingman Mike Dunleavy said. "It seems like we have a hard time following through what we're told to do on a daily and weekly basis. We're always playing catch up. Certainly more effort and desire will help that, but at some point we have to start figuring things out and know where we're supposed to be."

Can't say I disagree with Coach here. He probably told them what we would say to the players after that abysmal showing in the first half.

The comments from Granger and Dunleavy are what worry me. Last year, even amidst all of the losing, the chemistry was there, you could see the camaraderie, and the games were close. This year, however, the team seems to be divided and lost without direction. I'm not sure what the reason is, but something needs to happen. I don't think you can expect to ride out another half of the season with the tension in that locker room right now.

A concern of mine is I don't see a vocal leader on this team. Last year, it was clearly Jarrett Jack and I think the rest of the team respected him because he was looking out for the best interest of the team. He wasn't afraid to rip into TJ when he was being selfish. I just don't see that this year. Granger should be that guy, but I don't think he has it in him to get after his teammates. He's more of a lead by example type.

Basically, we're lost and a complete mess.

That is the case currently, but it's hard for me to fault anyone in particular currently.

Look at all the injuries, lineup changes and off court surroundings that have shaped the season for us. Personally I think we're looking at a lost cause for 2009/10, but there's plenty of positives to take from it too.

We weren't expected to set the league on fire and tbh have achieved pretty much what is to be expected with all the roadblocks. Just keep improving the young guys and try to find that chemistry. There's little more we can do than that at this point in time.

[Kuq_e_Zi91]

I agree completely.

I especially like what I've seen of Rush lately. His defense has remained solid, 5(!) blocks in the PHX game and his offense has been coming along as well, with the 17 on 7-9 shooting in the MIA game.

My concern is with Roy. I love the guy, have since his HS days here in DC, but he's a terrible fit under O'Brien. I wouldn't be surprised if he benches Roy now that he wants a faster lineup and in a lost season, you can't do that. Developing youth is the most important thing. The W/L column doesn't mean anything anymore, yet O'Brien is coaching and changing the lineups like he's scrambling to save his job.

If it was about improving the young guys I'd want Price/Rush/Granger/McRoberts(Tyler when he gets healthy)/Hibbert on the floor as much as possible. But I'm afraid Bird and O'Brien have visions of squeaking into the playoffs at all costs, and this mentality is just stunting the development of the young guys.

[DWCP2]

O'Brien was given the one year option for one reason: So he wouldn't be a lame duck head coach.

You kinda wondered how this team would fight for him or sink him had he not gotten that extension.

There are gonna be some solid head coaches going into next season. Mike Dunleavy Sr. could be done in Clipperland, George Karl is currently under the last year of his contract in Denver, and there are a few others that have escaped me at the moment.

I think once Bird is pressed to make trades to bring Indy down from the luxury tax in less then a month, the rest will unfold.

Bird is hanging on O'Brien like he hung on with Carlisle. There ain't an assistant underneath him that's a better interim option. So let's ride it out, make the moves to secure our future, and come April 15th, the rebuilding is over and everything begins.

[HookShotHibbert]

The comments from Granger and Dunleavy are what worry me. Last year, even amidst all of the losing, the chemistry was there, you could see the camaraderie, and the games were close. This year, however, the team seems to be divided and lost without direction. I'm not sure what the reason is, but something needs to happen. I don't think you can expect to ride out another half of the season with the tension in that locker room right now.

Basically, we're lost and a complete mess.

I think part of the reason the team seems lost and without direction is b/c O'brien hasn't established a team direction in the rotations. He will randomly start second and third string players or bench starters even though they seem to be playing well. Seems that one week he sets the lineup so he can win now and save his job and then the next week he sets a lineup so the young guys can develop. And then the next week he sets the lineup as bad as possible so we can 'tank'.

I am sure injuries are part of the reason for these irractic lineups, but I think the bigger problem is we have a lineup full of 'equally' talented players. I am not saying all our players have exactly the same amount of talent, but the players that should be 'better' players are playing below their capabilities this year. So the difference between the talent level in the entire roster is so small, a 'pecking' order of talent can't be established.

I mean pick any player (except Granger, maybe) remove him from our team and then say the loss of that player will ruin our season and we don't have a player of 'equal' talent on the bench...I don't think it it can be done!!

[Gremz]

I mean pick any player (except Granger, maybe) remove him from our team and then say the loss of that player will ruin our season and we don't have a player of 'equal' talent on the bench...I don't think it it can be done!!

Yeah, but I think a lot of teams would be in a similar situation is their top player was out (see Miami two years ago). One thing you can say about O'Brien is that he's willing to experiment as much as need be to find that niche.

He knows that his decisions probably won't be entirely popular, but he's trying to build a base here, and with some of the throw together pieces we have currently, I say just let him try.

[HookShotHibbert]

I mean pick any player (except Granger, maybe) remove him from our team and then say the loss of that player will ruin our season and we don't have a player of 'equal' talent on the bench...I don't think it it can be done!!

Yeah, but I think a lot of teams would be in a similar situation is their top player was out (see Miami two years ago). One thing you can say about O'Brien is that he's willing to experiment as much as need be to find that niche.

Actually what I am saying is if you pick any player, besides Granger, and remove him from our team, we aren't really any worse off, because nearly all our players are at the same or near the same talent level (atleast in terms of their production this season). Do I think some of our players are more talented than others, definately. Have they proven so with their production this year, no!

As for most NBA teams, they seem to have defined set of 'role/rotational players' to get a bulk of the minutes and a defined set of 'scrubs' to only play when the 'role' players need a rest. We don't seem to have that definition, on any given night, our scrubs could be starters for us (even when injuries aren't an issue)

[Miller4ever]

Mike Dunleavy's passing and ball handling has been REALLY painful to watch. He telegraphed a few to Dwight Howard yesterday. His shooting doesn't really concern me.

The Orlando announcers called Granger lazy on defense, selfish, and settles for too many threes. I thought they were talking about Vince Carter at first. Granger was in foul trouble for the game, and his teammates sucked, and he doesn't settle for 3's, Jim O'Brien wants him taking those, but there was a bit of truth to what they were saying.

AJ Price committed an uncharacteristic amount of turnovers against Orlando, but he's still really good.

Hibberts needs to stay out of foul trouble. He should be a go-to guy next season, even as early as after the all-star break. Brandon Rush has resurfaced. We'll see how Hansbrough does.

[Grang33r]

There are gonna be some solid head coaches going into next season. Mike Dunleavy Sr. could be done in Clipperland, George Karl is currently under the last year of his contract in Denver, and there are a few others that have escaped me at the moment.

I think once Bird is pressed to make trades to bring Indy down from the luxury tax in less then a month, the rest will unfold.

Bird is hanging on O'Brien like he hung on with Carlisle. There ain't an assistant underneath him that's a better interim option. So let's ride it out, make the moves to secure our future, and come April 15th, the rebuilding is over and everything begins.

I wish you were right, but i don't see it. Any of it.

1. I don't think Bird will make trades by the deadline. We went through this last year too and last year i think we all could have sworn that Foster would be gone. Bird holds onto guys for too long and his demands are super high. A reporter from Cleveland recently said Bird's offer was "laughable". Included expiring, a prospect and multiple draft picks. In a recent hoopsworld.com chat, they pretty said the same thing. Nobody is offering value and Bird may be over valuing his players. Bird is an old-school guy, who i think would prefer to win a few more times then not, and lose out on a higher pick.

2. If we do get a new coach, i don't think Pacers will shoot for the stars. Guys like Dunleavy JR and Karl are nice, but i think the Pacers will go the cheap route. I think someone like Tom Thibodeau would be high on Bird's list. I would think Marc Jackson would be high on the list. I would also like him to interview Elston Turner. Bill Laimbier too. But my favorite for the job would be Tyrone Corbin. Assistant to Jerry Sloan. Former player, who works under a legend, is working with a very young team that we would have, and has worked Knicks front office so he knows how the whole operation works.

3. But, honestly, i see JOB back next season.

[HookShotHibbert]

The Orlando announcers called Granger lazy on defense, selfish, and settles for too many threes. I thought they were talking about Vince Carter at first. Granger was in foul trouble for the game, and his teammates sucked, and he doesn't settle for 3's, Jim O'Brien wants him taking those, but there was a bit of truth to what they were saying..

You realize Danny is averaging 8.3 attempts per game, right. The next closest player in the league only averages 6.7 per. Also note that the difference inattempts for all the other players in the top ten in attempts compared to their next closest teammate is 2.0 attempts or less difference, except Danny. The difference between Danny and Troy in attempts per game is 3.7 attempts. This stat has three strikes with me:
1.) People claim all Troy does is camp out at the three point line and shoot threes, so why does Danny have so many more attempts per game, perhaps he settles for threes?
2.) People claim O'briens system promotes three point shooting, so why wouldn't we have more attempts out of our number two shooter? (perhaps Danny settles for all the attempts)
3.) Troy is better 3 point shooter so why doesn't Danny quit settling for so many of the attempts.

[Miller4ever]

Danny is actually comparable, Troy's one of those guys who only shoots it when open, a la Trevor Ariza, so the percentage is inflated by ~5%.

45% of Granger's attempts are 3's. That's WAY too many.

[HookShotHibbert]

Danny is actually comparable, Troy's one of those guys who only shoots it when open, a la Trevor Ariza, so the percentage is inflated by ~5%.

45% of Granger's attempts are 3's. That's WAY too many.

I assume by you saying Troy only shoots three when open, you are conceiding that Granger tends to shoot them while being guarded. Seems like those attempts with a hand in his face are shots 'settled for' especially when he has the 'ability' to get to the lane.

Troy doesn't have the luxury of having the ability to get to the lane like Danny so instead of jacking up ill advised 3's when being guarded he CHOOSES to PASS the ball. Sometimes wish Danny would realize he is an all-star and not a superstar and eith drive with the ball or pass to get a teammate involved!

[Gremz]

I mean pick any player (except Granger, maybe) remove him from our team and then say the loss of that player will ruin our season and we don't have a player of 'equal' talent on the bench...I don't think it it can be done!!

Yeah, but I think a lot of teams would be in a similar situation is their top player was out (see Miami two years ago). One thing you can say about O'Brien is that he's willing to experiment as much as need be to find that niche.

Actually what I am saying is if you pick any player, besides Granger, and remove him from our team, we aren't really any worse off, because nearly all our players are at the same or near the same talent level (atleast in terms of their production this season). Do I think some of our players are more talented than others, definately. Have they proven so with their production this year, no!

As for most NBA teams, they seem to have defined set of 'role/rotational players' to get a bulk of the minutes and a defined set of 'scrubs' to only play when the 'role' players need a rest. We don't seem to have that definition, on any given night, our scrubs could be starters for us (even when injuries aren't an issue)

See this is why I shouldn't post at 3:30 am. My bad, sorry there.

[PR07]

I don't think you can point the finger at one player and say, "That one, he's the one who needs to play better." Everyone on this team can play better. However, I think it starts on the defensive end.

[Gremz]

I don't think you can point the finger at one player and say, "That one, he's the one who needs to play better." Everyone on this team can play better. However, I think it starts on the defensive end.

I'll agree with that.

I mean we have a bunch of guys who definitely aren't liablities on the defensive end. Rush, Granger, Hibbert, Watson and D.Jones have made some very decent stops this year at times.

It just seems that as a cohesive unit, they can't stick to a plan. That's the part that I find really frustrating.

[Miller4ever]

Is there even a plan? There was a lot of talk about improving the D, and then we come out and play man-to-man and hope. Sometimes there's hands in faces, but shots are still falling. Individual defense can only accomplish so much. We need a team defense that rotates quickly and doesn't give up open shots.

[DWCP2]

[/quote]

1. I don't think Bird will make trades by the deadline. We went through this last year too and last year i think we all could have sworn that Foster would be gone. Bird holds onto guys for too long and his demands are super high. A reporter from Cleveland recently said Bird's offer was "laughable". Included expiring, a prospect and multiple draft picks. In a recent hoopsworld.com chat, they pretty said the same thing. Nobody is offering value and Bird may be over valuing his players. Bird is an old-school guy, who i think would prefer to win a few more times then not, and lose out on a higher pick.

[/quote]

Yeah, he knows better. He's got a 30 million cushion come 2011 and the players to make things work. He ain't gonna sacrifice that. He wants quality in deals yes, but he knows what playoff value is vs. normal value. If he was trading to a losing ball club, an expiring and draft pick usually win the day. But since this is a team vying for a championship, the price is a hair more. Bird knows how to play hardball and not simpy give a championship to someone else without getting something significant in return.

[Grang33r]

1. I don't think Bird will make trades by the deadline. We went through this last year too and last year i think we all could have sworn that Foster would be gone. Bird holds onto guys for too long and his demands are super high. A reporter from Cleveland recently said Bird's offer was "laughable". Included expiring, a prospect and multiple draft picks. In a recent hoopsworld.com chat, they pretty said the same thing. Nobody is offering value and Bird may be over valuing his players. Bird is an old-school guy, who i think would prefer to win a few more times then not, and lose out on a higher pick.

[/quote]

Yeah, he knows better. He's got a 30 million cushion come 2011 and the players to make things work. He ain't gonna sacrifice that. He wants quality in deals yes, but he knows what playoff value is vs. normal value. If he was trading to a losing ball club, an expiring and draft pick usually win the day. But since this is a team vying for a championship, the price is a hair more. Bird knows how to play hardball and not simpy give a championship to someone else without getting something significant in return.[/quote]

He does? When has he made a trade that was good for the Pacers, in which he played hardball with? Sorry, i may be in the minority but i'd take Bayless over Jack and Rush any day of the week. And Jack was a 1 year player only, and helped us win several games, thus losing us spots in the draft.

[DWCP2]

He wanted Rush to be the SG complement to Granger, then he got Hibbert for O'Neal.

Obviously two years later that big three is struggling to be together.

If Granger and Hibbert can get in sync together, their win % improves by at least 20-25%. But right now it's the tail of two games.

Besides who knew from the beginning that Jack was going to be anything of quality under O'Brien.