Lion need is a QB.... Pick 1 of 6 choices

[ajaX82]

The Lions just had the best draft class in team history and you want to rip Mayhew? They got 5 legit NFL starters and a very good special teamer. Delmas is a Pro Bowl player, Pettigrew will be a borderline Pro Bowler if healthy, Stafford is a true leader and played through a lot of injuries and still showed lots of promise. Levy is the best MLB since Earl Holmes' 1st year and he's only going to get better.

If you're not sold on Stafford that's fine, but if you want a replacement or competition you sure as heck don't want it from the draft. He needs, and will get, an upgraded veteran mentor/pusher, likely Kerry Collins. In his first year Stafford showed a heck of a lot more than most first-year QBs. He's not going to be an All Pro right away, certainly not behind that line with those receivers.

Stop listening to the Huge Show and step back for a minute. This team has progressed light years in the last 12 months, and Martin Mayhew deserves a lot of that credit, so does Jim Schwartz. It's real funny--people in MIchigan are so darn negative towards those two but across the league they are extremely respected for what they've done so quickly with so little to work with. They replaced 37 players and of those 37 departures only 7 made another active roster last year, that's how freaking deep the hole was.

Progressed? Light years?!?!??! This team has done everything wrong, every step of the way. And you are on their side? How dare you? Are you even a Lion's fan? We had a 2 win and 0 win season because of Mayhew! And we aren't in good shape next year or for the next 10 years and we could be in great shape today for those ranges if we made smart decisions!! How can you not see that??? This is an absolutely atrocious position to be in. The picks are good because we have lots of high picks you knucklehead, and we still haven't cracked the SB, and not even come close. It's because of Mayhew and anybody else that is empowered to make bad decisions. That's what's wrong with this team, it's so obvious to any person of a brilliantly logical mind. Wake up from your dream dude!

Im tickled by the notion that A) Ice isn't a Lions fan and B) he doesnt know what he is talking about. Guy is the lead writer for the football section here at RealGM and an NFL scout (if i recall correctly). To insinuate that he is not in any way knowledgeable is humorous.

And can you please stop with the "im a genius and am not to be questioned" routine? It derails the thread and aggravates everyone to the point of them responding to only your claims and not any actual thoughts. Seriously.

[TSE]

That's where you're wrong. GM's won't be aiming for our 30th best guy, cuz our 30th best guy could be matched with a 5th or 6th round draft pick. What you expect to grab from other teams? A whole bunch of 5-7th round draft picks? What's the freaking point in that?

Let's give an example for how much draft picks are important to GM's. The BEST offer Oakland got for Randy Moss was a 4th round draft pick. THATS IT!! A 4th freaking round draft pick for one of the best WR's in NFL history that is still in his prime. Roy Williams is an exception cuz Jerry Jones is an idiot and thought Roy could be the next Terrell Owens.

LOL Randy Moss was a bizarre situation that is not like any of our players.

And just because you think all of our players are only worth 5th-7th rounders doesn't mean that is the case. And I wouldn't sell single players for low picks so i have a bunch of picks. Teams would be encouraged to take 2 or more players from our team, hell they can take 10 at once if they can use them, and give us 1 pick for the lot, or we include low picks with our players to get slightly higher picks. You don't get what we will end up with because you haven't worked out ALL the trades the way I have. I have a sweet setup with my deals, and you would agree that it was great if you would spend the time to work through it. Use your head and your imagination and you will see the solution, or you can just not do that and keep calling me a moron, I could really care less. You haven't made any attempt to chat with me in a logical or respectful fashion since I've been here, so I really could care less what you have to say.

[TSE]

The Lions just had the best draft class in team history and you want to rip Mayhew? They got 5 legit NFL starters and a very good special teamer. Delmas is a Pro Bowl player, Pettigrew will be a borderline Pro Bowler if healthy, Stafford is a true leader and played through a lot of injuries and still showed lots of promise. Levy is the best MLB since Earl Holmes' 1st year and he's only going to get better.

If you're not sold on Stafford that's fine, but if you want a replacement or competition you sure as heck don't want it from the draft. He needs, and will get, an upgraded veteran mentor/pusher, likely Kerry Collins. In his first year Stafford showed a heck of a lot more than most first-year QBs. He's not going to be an All Pro right away, certainly not behind that line with those receivers.

Stop listening to the Huge Show and step back for a minute. This team has progressed light years in the last 12 months, and Martin Mayhew deserves a lot of that credit, so does Jim Schwartz. It's real funny--people in MIchigan are so darn negative towards those two but across the league they are extremely respected for what they've done so quickly with so little to work with. They replaced 37 players and of those 37 departures only 7 made another active roster last year, that's how freaking deep the hole was.

Progressed? Light years?!?!??! This team has done everything wrong, every step of the way. And you are on their side? How dare you? Are you even a Lion's fan? We had a 2 win and 0 win season because of Mayhew! And we aren't in good shape next year or for the next 10 years and we could be in great shape today for those ranges if we made smart decisions!! How can you not see that??? This is an absolutely atrocious position to be in. The picks are good because we have lots of high picks you knucklehead, and we still haven't cracked the SB, and not even come close. It's because of Mayhew and anybody else that is empowered to make bad decisions. That's what's wrong with this team, it's so obvious to any person of a brilliantly logical mind. Wake up from your dream dude!

Im tickled by the notion that A) Ice isn't a Lions fan and B) he doesnt know what he is talking about. Guy is the lead writer for the football section here at RealGM and an NFL scout (if i recall correctly). To insinuate that he is not in any way knowledgeable is humorous.

And can you please stop with the "im a genius and am not to be questioned" routine? It derails the thread and aggravates everyone to the point of them responding to only your claims and not any actual thoughts. Seriously.

Yeah well Matt Millen was a GM and a higher ranking position than Ice, and he isn't regarded as smart. I will say this Ice guy is nuts with the post he made. I don't think he understands the logic of the game. You don't have to be a brilliant person or a logic expert to be a scout. And you don't have to be a good scout to be a scout. So you offer nothing that backs up Ice's post or anything that gives him any credibility. He shot his own credibility down with a ridiculous perspective of this team and this GM. I'm not the one that is begging to brag about my level of genius, that's you and your crazy cohorts that keep bringing that up. I just reply to it.

[Icness]

TSE--here's what you are missing, or ignoring:

Teams loathe trading later round picks for players because those provide inexpensive roster spots. You see a lot of trading of picks for picks in that range, and every now and then a marginal player or two gets thrown in to sweeten the deal. But why would a team give up a pick for someone the Lions (or any team) is likely to cut? They can get the same player for nothing just a few weeks later. Plus there is disincentive to trade players of that ilk because it's standard that when a player gets dealt, all bonuses and remaning escalators get guaranteed--and the team trading the player away almost always eats that $$. Think the Fords are going to do that

As for my fandom, my #20 jersey says "Sims" on the back, and it isn't a throwback either. I grew up near Cleveland and have stubbornly clung to being a Lions fan even though I never had any reason to. I've worked for two different NFL franchises and took crap all the time for being a Lions fan. I'm not as live-and-die as I used to be, it's just too hard because I know too many people that I like and respect on too many teams.

Re: Bodden--he was a RFA but his agent told the Lions not to match any offer, he'd retire first. In theory they could have played hardball with him, but he was hurt a lot and is a truly God-awful tackler so they let him go. The Patriots are set to let him go away, so that means a highly reputable team found out the hard way what the Lions and Browns already knew.

Re: Shaun Rogers--HUGE mistake letting him go. Terrible decision that epitomizes why Millen sucked so bad. That and the fact that of the 39 players he drafted between 2002-06, only one is still a Lion and only 3 others are pulling NFL checks. I spent one of those years (heading into the 06 draft) as an area scout and I was shocked at how highly Millen rated and took some of those guys. We're talking dozens of spots too high--Bullocks was a 4th round prospect, Calhoun a 6th-7th. I actually liked Jonathan Scott but he couldn't ever stay healthy--still can't. Nobody else they drafted that year would have even been in the camp as UDFAs of the team I was with.

You simply cannot overcome that level of ineptitiude in one year. Players are gunshy about coming into a situation like that, agents don't want guys to go to DET unless there's no other options (DET is ahead of OAK in that regard though). I think (hope?) that oen of the things that ticks you off is that most of the more prominent free agent veterans and trades that came in weren't as good as expected. Larry Foote wasn't good, Philip Buchanon was largely terrible, Julian Peterson is on the downside more than they like to admit, Bryant JOhnson stunk, etc. If that's what you're talking about as false trumpeting of progress then I agree, but Mayhew is a rookie GM with a rookie head coach and they're learning and will make mistakes. Even the best in the business do--look at some recent Colts and Patriots flops. I'll take Mayhew adn what he's done over what Scot Pioli has done to KC any day. That team is worse than before he got there and he was the sexy GM candidate of 2008.

[TSE]

I'm not trading ANY players that we would cut, so your first question is irrelevant along with the entire first paragraph.

Oh and of course I'm very familiar with Billy Sims. My dad used to tell me about him.

I'm not sure what NE letting him go has to do with us. I don't care what NE thinks for THEIR team, I only care what makes sense for OUR team. Not every player fits the same for our team, and we didn't do the right thing with that player. That was a mistake.

Rogers - agreed. I've been steaming about that trade every day since it happened. I can show you posts the day of, and I can show you a LONG thread just about a month ago on another site where I was lashing out at somebody who tried to defend the trade. I think we are finally close to putting that discussion to rest. lol

And definitely don't tell me I can't overcome that level of ineptitude in one year. Just because Mayhew can't figure it out and you haven't, doesn't mean that my solution doesn't hold water. I've analyzed my solutions inside and out from every angle and MANY people have tried to poke holes. It holds up against all scrutiny. Where there is a will, there is a way. If you haven't found the way, then you haven't thought creatively enough.

As far as being ticked off, no not at all. I didn't want Buchanon here and I grilled Mayhew for it. I didn't want Foote here and I grilled Mayhew for it. I grilled Mayhew for just about every damn transaction he made (and even moreso the transactions he didn't make. We could have done lots of strategic trades and waiver wire moves and we didn't exploit that gift), because they were all AGAINST my philosophy for this particular time. I also HATED the JP trade as we needed to do exactly what Seattle did to us, we had the wrong end of the concept of that trade. Again, Mayhew does everything backwards. His logic is reversed to see the wrong direction because he doesn't understand the GM game in a shrewd fashion. And oh boy another Scott Pioli lover. Yeah he's ok, but he's a bungling idiot compared to me. I would never make some of the mistakes he made. I just don't make ANY illogical mistakes and EVERY single GM in the NFL has made MANY, MANY mistakes that were preventable with use of proper logic. That's why I know I would be the greatest GM, because my logic prevents me from making unnecessary mistakes. It's like a novice investor that doesn't know how to diversify his portfolio and ends up being exposed to more risk than is necessary and risk that doesn't come with extra payoffs. You can filter a piece of that risk right out of the equation if you invest logically. No stock is a guarantee, but logical diversifying is a guarantee against a portion of those mishaps. The same is true for the GM world of the NFL. I diversify my decisions in such a way that I'm incapable of making some of the mistakes that other GMs do on a regular basis.

Oh and by the way I don't mean to come off as a prick, but here in this forum there is a hostile environment where people are constantly trying to debunk me or attack me or insult me, so I'm just sometimes stuck in a defensive shell trying to protect myself, and sometimes my actions and words can be misconstrued as offensive. Lots of posters here like to invent ways to get insulted by my posts, but don't let their insecurities compromise your experience in chatting with me. I have read a lot of your articles and draft material on this site in the past and do agree with a lot of your perspectives. Sometimes people just think I'm hard to get along with cause I really hammer on people that have logic breakdowns in opinions that clash with mine. After all, there's not much point in arguing about stuff we agree on, so all that's left is the other stuff, and it's just in my nature to defeat my opponents, but don't take it personal. I think maybe we got off to a bad start, especially considering the first time I ever saw your name I asked you a question in your thread and didn't even receive a response, so you didn't make a very good first impression on me.

[Bartender]

My problem with you is that you think you are a God. You think that your logic ISSS the right logic. You think that if someone don't agree with you, then they are ignorant, that they have a low IQ, that they don't have knowledge of the game.

I sometimes disagree with ajaX and Liq about some things they say, but I don't scold them and force what I believe on them. I respect what they are saying and try to look at it in there perspective. It's IMPOSSIBLE to look at it in your perspective cuz your perspective is in 'I have a dream' land. There is no reasoning with you. You refuse to try and listen to someones else's opinions. If you don't agree with someone, you come at them with all your 'logic' and 'statistics'. THAT PISSES PEOPLE OFF!!! You are practically calling people stupid.

I'll tell you what I told Liq on aim earlier. When I make a post and you follow it saying all this **** saying that I don't know football and I don't know logic, it LITERALLY irritates the **** outta me. I have played football professionally in the Minor Leagues. I was in the same league that Eric Crouch (2001 heisman award winner) was in. I came one game away from playing against him, had my team not lost by 5 points in playoffs. I am currently in college with a major in Sports Management. Sports is my life. EVERY post you make offends me and my knowledge of the game.... whether you try to make it seem that way or not. When you scold my opinion on Martin Mayhew, I'm offended. When you scold my opinion on Matt Stafford, I'm offended. Mayhew is MY manager.. Stafford is MY quarterback. What if I said your mom does a **** job cleaning my room. You'd get offended. Martin Mayhew is my daddy (No Homo.... I promise). You deserve to be banned for badgering people, cuz that's exactly what you do. And you deserve to be banned for disrespecting a global mod. Idk why you're still allowed to post, tbh.

[TSE]

Nope, don't think I'm a God, you are wrong again. Another point for me on the scorecard of being right and the opposition being wrong!

Actually your 3rd sentence is also not true, +2 so far.

I don't really THINK my logic is right, I KNOW my logic makes SENSE and is VALID and SOUND. It's about having valid logic so that your odds of making a mistake in anything you do are lowered. Mayhew makes a LOT of mistakes that are purely driven by bad logic. If I could teach him to master the concept of logic, he would instantly be a good GM because more than half of his mistakes would vanish, and theoretically all of them could go away.

My perspective is in a dream land? You only say that because every time you have ever talked with me, all you do is post garbage towards me. You don't take me seriously, thus I'm just a crackpot mystery to you. You just take everything I say and toss it into the clouds and then complain how you can't see what I'm talking about.

I would say if my mom can't clean your room properly, then pick somebody else to clean it. Simple problem and a simple solution. Same thing I'm doing with Mayhew. I want wins and SBs and Mayhew isn't giving it to me as fast as I could give it to myself if I was doing his job for him. That I have a problem with. How could my mom's cleaning habits not meshing with YOUR cleaning preferences offend me? That has nothing to do with my mom as a person or her character. It's just a job function and maybe she's a great cleaner for others but you have preferences that don't match. Or maybe she's not a good cleaner. If that's the case she should find another job. I would rather my mom do a job she's good at and not one she's bad at. I know my mom, so I can tell you I'm proud of her for being a GREAT Accounts Receivables Clerk, but I think she sucks at being a sports GM. I think my mom also sucks at designing rockets and performing surgery. How come I can say my mom sucks and not think it matters one bit? You were wrong about my being offended, thus now I'm up 3 pts in this post.

You have the opposite viewpoints on Mayhew and Stafford, yet you get offended by MY opinion. Well I don't get offended by YOUR opinion. I think it's crazy to support Mayhew and there's no basis to be encouraged by Stafford, so when you say otherwise it BLOWS my mind! But I'm not going to get offended by your opinion just cause you don't agree with me. Look at the support for my side. Mayhew has won 2 games his first year, and 0 for whatever portion he contributed to last year. You can pick the percent. Stafford had crap stats and won very little. Why do you get so bent out of shape about some guy who isn't happy with crap? There's a midpoint, and there's spots below and above it. SO FAR, Stafford is below the midpoint and so is Mayhew. Do you really feel BETTER about Stafford than you did the day after we signed him? I sure as heck don't. He was 100% unknown to the NFL then, now he's SOMEWHAT known, and the only part we know sucks. How can that BOOST your opinion of him? I never said Stafford can't be great, I'm just working off of my present, and clearly his stock should be perceived as lower, but not higher. Sanchez on the other hand hasn't done anything to lower his stock. Maybe Stafford will be better than Sanchez later, but for now I see one guy who held his stock and raised it, and one guy who lowered it. To me that sucks, and I don't like things that suck, I like to stay away from them. Mayhew is behind the driver's seat and he drove us right into SuckVille.

And I don't badger people unless they badger me without provocation or fairness or logic. Some of you guys are AWFUL in your behavior. It's quite deplorable actually. I only give those a hard time that deserve it for excessively disrespectful behavior. I never instigate ill will or negativity to anybody at any time, I only respond to it forcefully when I spot a perverter of truth or justice.

Oh and also, if my posts offend you so much and you don't WANT to read it. Just put me on your ignore list and that should help. If you truly despise my opinions and don't see ANYTHING positive in reading it, then why put yourself through the hassle? Either there's SOMETHING positive you gain from reading my content or there isn't. If not, then ignore me.

[kellmellus50]

There's no use arguing with them. They are ignorant and most of the time just saying something to say it.

There's a reason they stick to the Tigers and Lions forums... because the fans on the Pistons forum would eat them alive with their "logic" and "knowledge". So they come here where there are only a few of us and try to force their stupidity on the rest of us.

Bartender Quote :We should bring the Pistons forum over here then. Maybe they'll move to a new site."My problem with you is that you think you are a God"

"
Liqurish and Bartender run out of logic and have nothing to say about the lions and then they start to attack us personally which is wrong and rude.

I agee 100% in TSE statement:
I don't badger people unless they badger me without provocation or fairness or logic. Some of you guys are AWFUL in your behavior. It's quite deplorable actually. I only give those a hard time that deserve it for excessively disrespectful behavior. I never instigate ill will or negativity to anybody at any time, I only respond to it forcefully when I spot a perverter of truth or justice.

Oh and also, if my posts offend you so much and you don't WANT to read it. Just put me on your ignore list and that should help. If you truly despise my opinions and don't see ANYTHING positive in reading it, then why put yourself through the hassle? Either there's SOMETHING positive you gain from reading my content or there isn't. If not, then ignore me.

[Piston Pete]

Kell and TSE....

Your arguments don't make sense. Its simply that, your arguments just don't make any sense.

The Lions have not been a good team over the past 9 seasons.....but you can't pin that all of Mayhew, and we're not trading Stafford, and a team cannot afford to release everyone - even if they wanted to. Building an NFL team takes time. Lets give it (time) to Mayhew.


I would be interested in your starting a new thread, outlining your "Lions plan." That might be an interesting read.

TSE - weren't you going to send a letter to the Allen Park headquarters? Drop a copy in here.....

[TSE]

Umm I don't think the Lions are going to trade Stafford. There's just no way that Mayhew would ever do that. Why are you acting like I think otherwise?

And yes I have written a football manifesto, it's actually in process of being published right now. I have about a month to wait to receive my copies, and then from there I'm sending them to various people. It's not a letter, it's a book.

[Icness]

That's a good end point for this one. I'd be curious to read that too TSE.