Rumor: No One Untouchable

shrink · Post #1 » by **shrink** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:38 pm

Yahoo's Wajnorowski wrote: As they did when shopping Stoudemire last season, the Suns want a combination of young talent, salary-cap relief and draft picks for him. Some teams are hesitant to trade for Stoudemire for fear he won’t want to re-sign with them this summer. The Minnesota Timberwolves lead that group of teams, sources say. The Wolves are mostly eyeing small forwards, including the Memphis Grizzlies’ Rudy Gay(notes), the Bulls’ Luol Deng(notes) and the Washington Wizards’ Caron Butler(notes). No one is untouchable on the Wolves roster, sources say.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

berginator · Post #2 » by **berginator** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:44 pm

I hope that's not true, the only one of those players I'd want is Gay and only if we get him via free agency or give up nothing for him. The only highly payed small forward I'd want us to trade for before the deadline is Iguodala.

lobishome · Post #3 » by **lobishome** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:55 pm

How many 6,11'' PFs want have the Twolves?

Now they have Jefferson, Love a Pekovic. And you want wasted the FA option signing another?

We need centers, wings, SGs, Combo guads, SF's, coaches, General Managers, DJs, TV Channels Managers, hot dog sellers,etc ... not a fourth 6,11 PF.

And don't say me that Amare is a center, it's a pure center as Jefferon is.

I prefer Iguodala x Love and hold Jefferon. I eat my own words "Love is better than Jefferson".

Foye · Post #4 » by **Foye** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:59 pm

On a team that has won only 9 games midway through the season no one should be untouchable. Great news :lol:

Post #5 » by **C.lupus** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:59 pm

I read that to say Minnesota leads the group that is hesitant to trade for Amare and that they would rather go for a SF/wing player. I agree that Iggy would be my first option because he actually plays some defense. Gay would probably be #2. Deng would be alright as a fallback option. No interest in Butler.

Esohny · Post #6 » by **Esohny** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:27 pm

C.lupus wrote:I read that to say Minnesota leads the group that is hesitant to trade for Amare and that they would rather go for a SF/wing player. I agree that Iggy would be my first option because he actually plays some defense. Gay would probably be #2. Deng would be alright as a fallback option. No interest in Butler.

That's how it reads to me as well. I agree with you on Gay and Butler, but I don't have much interest in Deng.

Casperkid23 · Post #7 » by **Casperkid23** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:36 pm

Esohny wrote:
C.lupus wrote:I read that to say Minnesota leads the group that is hesitant to trade for Amare and that they would rather go for a SF/wing player. I agree that Iggy would be my first option because he actually plays some defense. Gay would probably be #2. Deng would be alright as a fallback option. No interest in Butler.

That's how it reads to me as well. I agree with you on Gay and Butler, but I don't have much interest in Deng.

Really? I would absolutely love Deng, even with his contract that causes shrink to vomit (for whatever reason). Then again, I've been a big Deng fan since I first saw him play at Duke.

For me, it goes Deng, then Gay, then Butler.

moss_is_1 · Post #8 » by **moss_is_1** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:59 pm

Deng??? wtf casper Deng>Gay? no thanks...

NewWolvesOrder · Post #9 » by **NewWolvesOrder** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:10 pm

I like Deng, he actually plays defense and has great size for a SF, but he's overpaid.

Woomanchu · Post #10 » by **Woomanchu** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:15 pm

This is a trade scenario that I wouldn't mind.

Trade Jonny Flynn for Rudy Gay
Trade Blount, Cardinal, Wilkins, UTA/CHA 1st for Igoudala and Dalembert

C Jefferson/Dalembert
PF Love/Jefferson
SF Gay/Brewer
SG Igoudala/Ellington
PG Sessions/??????

Eventually Rubio replaces Sessions and we still have a high draft pick this year. The would give the Wolves a strong preview if two uber-athletic wings could cover up Love and Jefferson, if not the Wolves know they need to trade one of the PFs and Dalembert could be used as a strong backstop.

Casperkid23 · Post #11 » by **Casperkid23** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:19 pm

moss_is_1 wrote:Deng??? wtf casper Deng>Gay? no thanks...

Gay will make Deng-like money, right?

With Gay, you're mainly getting him for scoring, yet besides his willingness to take 3pters, he doesn't give the Timberwolves anything else that Deng would offensively. Efficiency is basically the same, he's worse at moving the ball, and he isn't any more aggressive at attacking the rim.

Defensively, Deng is quite a bit better than Gay. He gives more effort and has more ablility - especially when it comes to being a 3/4 if the Timberwolves go small since he has more strength. Rebounding? Deng.

Honestly, I have no idea why Deng stopped shooting 3s or why he shot them so poorly in his rookie year. In college he was a guy who could do it all, and that's why I loved him as a prospect. In the NBA, suddenly he struggled shooting 3pters and eventually shied away from them, even though he has a good jump shot. This year, he's back to shooting them, but it's not as often as it could be - but maybe it will be used more and more once his coaches tell him he can be that much more efficient if he takes them and can hit them at a ~35% clip.

So the only thing Gay has on Deng (in my eyes) is him being one year younger, as well as Deng's sketchy injury history. Deng does more things for his team, which makes him a far better non-star player to have.

Turnover_21 wrote:I like Deng, he actually plays defense and has great size for a SF, but he's overpaid.

And you don't think Gay at the same price is going to be considered overpaid?

Is Jefferson overpaid when he is a poor defender making 14m/yr the next three seasons - despite the fact that he can operate with decent efficiency against double teams?

moss_is_1 · Post #12 » by **moss_is_1** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:22 pm

Casperkid23 wrote:
moss_is_1 wrote:Deng??? wtf casper Deng>Gay? no thanks...

Gay will make Deng-like money, right?

With Gay, you're mainly getting him for scoring, yet besides his willingness to take 3pters, he doesn't give the Timberwolves anything else that Deng would offensively. Efficiency is basically the same, he's worse at moving the ball, and he isn't any more aggressive at attacking the rim.

Defensively, Deng is quite a bit better than Gay. He gives more effort and has more ablility - especially when it comes to being a 3/4 if the Timberwolves go small since he has more strength. Rebounding? Deng.

Honestly, I have no idea why Deng stopped shooting 3s or why he shot them so poorly in his rookie year. In college he was a guy who could do it all, and that's why I loved him as a prospect. In the NBA, suddenly he struggled shooting 3pters and eventually shied away from them, even though he has a good jump shot. This year, he's back to shooting them, but it's not as often as it could be - but maybe it will be used more and more once his coaches tell him he can be that much more efficient if he takes them and can hit them at a ~35% clip.

So the only thing Gay has on Deng (in my eyes) is him being one year younger, as well as Deng's sketchy injury history. Deng does more things for his team, which makes him a far better non-star player to have.

Deng is a worse shooter to me, plus his injury history gives me a big red flag. Gay has shown a willingness to drive and play defense this season, and I think he has much more potential to be a #1 guy than Deng. I'm not saying I don't like Deng because I think that he would be a good player here, but I like Gay alot more.

Casperkid23 · Post #13 » by **Casperkid23** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:34 pm

moss_is_1 wrote:Deng is a worse shooter to me, plus his injury history gives me a big red flag. Gay has shown a willingness to drive and play defense this season, and I think he has much more potential to be a #1 guy than Deng. I'm not saying I don't like Deng because I think that he would be a good player here, but I like Gay alot more.

We're going to have to disagree on everything but the injuries being a red flag - though I don't see them as being a "big" flag since he's proven to be able to play through minor things as well as playing in basically a full season 2 of 5 years (don't snicker, same can't be said of Al or Crash).

The only problem I see is that Deng is an unlikely target for Minnesota since he's having a great year in Chicago.

NewWolvesOrder · Post #14 » by **NewWolvesOrder** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:34 pm

True #1 guy is supposed to make his teammates better and average more than 2 apg. Gay is not a #1 material, but he's a wannabe.

moss_is_1 · Post #15 » by **moss_is_1** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Turnover_21 wrote:True #1 guy is supposed to make his teammates better and average more than 2 apg. Gay is not a #1 material, but he's a wannabe.

Kevin Durant?

NewWolvesOrder · Post #16 » by **NewWolvesOrder** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:46 pm

moss_is_1 wrote:
Turnover_21 wrote:True #1 guy is supposed to make his teammates better and average more than 2 apg. Gay is not a #1 material, but he's a wannabe.

Kevin Durant?

Durant's numbers are better all across the board including assists. But he will need to imrove in this department to truly rival Lebron, Kobe and Wade, those 3 are real #1 players, go check their apg.

shrink · Post #17 » by **shrink** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:49 pm

Casperkid23 wrote: Really? I would absolutely love Deng, even with his contract that causes shrink to vomit (for whatever reason).

In general, I think we need to look suspiciously at any contract over the MLE and with more than 2 years (1 year now for us). Many deals that were reasonable two years ago are now overpaid, and almost all new contracts are cheaper and shorter for all but max-deal superstars. The NBA economy is shrinking, and shrinking fast. Here's an overview:

shrink wrote: For the five previous years, total NBA payroll has risen every year. The CBA increases the salary for rookies each year, and guaranteed raises also account for a rise. The major way to decrease salaries is through replacing players with cheaper alternatives, or like Marion, giving the same player a cheaper deal. The changes?

2005-06 INCREASE $112 million
2006-07 INCREASE $61 million
2007-08 INCREASE $106 million
2008-09 INCREASE $100 million

.. so what happened this year?

2009-10 DECREASE $40 million!

Is a $140 million U-turn shocking? I think so.

Since the majority of players are on multi-year deals, the decrease is correlated with the new contracts that replace ones that ended in 2008 and 2009. I think you'll see an even greater decrease next year when we see the payrolls in 2010-11, with smaller contracts and several teams operating at a $55 mil cap and $65 mil lux, which will force most (not all) owners to be even more frugal with their new contracts.

A few years ago, maybe Deng's a guy you'd risk a contract of this size on. Now however, that's overpaying. Moreover, the irritating length of the contract sticks a team with an over-priced guy for many years. Long contracts compound risk in the NBA because they are guaranteed, and no player is immune from the risk of injury or other problems that hurt productivity.

Off the top of my head, I can list dozens of "good players but certainly not superstars" who have years remaining on deals that are now over-priced. Deng is on my list.

Casperkid23 · Post #18 » by **Casperkid23** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:50 pm

Turnover_21 wrote:
moss_is_1 wrote:
Turnover_21 wrote:True #1 guy is supposed to make his teammates better and average more than 2 apg. Gay is not a #1 material, but he's a wannabe.

Kevin Durant?

Durant's numbers are better all across the board including assists. But he will need to imrove in this department to truly rival Lebron, Kobe and Wade, those 3 are real #1 players, go check their apg.

Durant has a 14.4 assist ratio on top of absolutely ridiculous efficiency for a #1 (LeBron-like). I'd say he's a #1 and that Gay is not close to being that type of player and never will be.

NewWolvesOrder · Post #19 » by **NewWolvesOrder** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:51 pm

Shrink. Is Al Jefferson on your list?

Casperkid23 · Post #20 » by **Casperkid23** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:53 pm

Casperkid23 wrote:Durant has a 14.4 assist ratio on top of absolutely ridiculous efficiency for a #1 (LeBron-like). I'd say he's a #1 and that Gay is not close to being that type of player and never will be.

Apologies, he has a 9.3 assist ratio, he has a 14.4 assist % - big difference.