Blow-up/Rebuild - PHX/TOR/GS

[J-Rich-]

What is this obsession with Ellis? The guy is a terribly inefficient player. NO THANK YOU!

When you got a dumb coach who plays him 46+ mpg then you're gonna get tired and not play at 100%. I'd like to see how nash or amare would do with 1 or 2 minute rest and most of the time play 48 minutes

[hunterxaz]

They have no other options dude, Warriors have like 7 active players. Ellis is out tonight btw.

[tsherkin]

I have this to say to the OP, as a Toronto fan:

No f'g thank you.

TOR sends: Andrea Bargnani, DeMar DeRozan, Marco Belinelli and 2010 1st Round Pick.
TOR gets: Steve Nash, Leandro Barbosa, Earl Clark and 2010 2nd Round Pick

You want us to give you Bargnani, DD, Belli and a first for cap hell and Earl Clark? Really?

You want us to mortgage what little future we have for Nash? Steve is great, but he's exactly the WRONG kind of player for this team. The Raptors are the 4th best offense in the league; we don't NEED Steve Nash.

It'd be a nice story for Nash to come to the Raptors in the twilight of his career, but it would also be flat-out (Please Use More Appropriate Word) for Toronto to pursue that kind of deal, especially mortgaging what talent and youth we have.

Blech. That's a TERRIBLE trade from Toronto's perspective. We need defense, rebounding, wing scoring talent and a way to get Hedo the hell off of our roster, not a mid-30s PG who doesn't positively impact our defense and doesn't offer us any tangible improvement to the team.

Nash is great and I'd love to see him in our awful uniforms, but not at THAT price. The Raptors are going to have trouble enough turning what they've got into a reasonable playoff product that has a chance to win a series or two; adding Nash would set the team back two years.

[tsherkin]

- Andrea Bargnani is an offensive PF who can spread the floor and is cheaper than Amare. An Offensive/Defensive combo with him and Lopez down low for many years.

Be sure you don't expect FTAs, offensive rebounding or valuable help defense. Be sure to expect that about 3/4s of his shots are jumpers, and about that many need to be assisted, as well (76% of his overall shots, 85% of his jumpers, 74% of his shots are jumpers). Be sure not to expect a lot of passing; not because he's a hog or because he's bad at it, but because like Amare, his entire role is to finish when he gets the ball. Bargs gets mostly open jumpers for us, or pump-fakes a defender coming out at him. He doesn't do a lot of scoring in isos, doesn't see double-teams frequently and while he scores in the post on occasion, he's not a monster at it.

-DeMar DeRozan is the sleeper. Potential star SF, remarkable athlete, young, perfect for this system and cheap.

He's not a SF, he's a shooting guard. Good pick-up. Wouldn't call him a potential star, though. No 3PT range, but a good mid-range J (and FT shooter) despite somewhat awkward mechanics. Solid rebounder. Willing, if uncreative, passer. Not a terrific ball-handler, but he's got more iso ability than we've seen. Doesn't turn the ball over often, though he doesn't do a lot with it. Defends well.

He feels like a nice roleplayer; it's early in his career, of course; people said similar things about T-Mac (though DD isn't that large, can't handle the ball like that and isn't the same kind of help defender as was McGrady).

[old rem]

Amare would never re-sign in GS, and if he agreed to a sign-and-trade, would veto GS. As i said before IF he gets moved, it will be either HOU,OKC,CHI, or MIA. Those are the only "contending" teams that have the cash, need, and players to do so.

Very true. I don't see how folks on both sides miss what's so obvious.

Technically, come summer there's more S+T options but sub-500 teams mostly won't factor unless they can add LeBron (or ?) plus Amare. That gets complex.

[northernpuppy]

- Andrea Bargnani is an offensive PF who can spread the floor and is cheaper than Amare. An Offensive/Defensive combo with him and Lopez down low for many years.

Be sure you don't expect FTAs, offensive rebounding or valuable help defense. Be sure to expect that about 3/4s of his shots are jumpers, and about that many need to be assisted, as well (76% of his overall shots, 85% of his jumpers, 74% of his shots are jumpers). Be sure not to expect a lot of passing; not because he's a hog or because he's bad at it, but because like Amare, his entire role is to finish when he gets the ball. Bargs gets mostly open jumpers for us, or pump-fakes a defender coming out at him. He doesn't do a lot of scoring in isos, doesn't see double-teams frequently and while he scores in the post on occasion, he's not a monster at it.

-DeMar DeRozan is the sleeper. Potential star SF, remarkable athlete, young, perfect for this system and cheap.

He's not a SF, he's a shooting guard. Good pick-up. Wouldn't call him a potential star, though. No 3PT range, but a good mid-range J (and FT shooter) despite somewhat awkward mechanics. Solid rebounder. Willing, if uncreative, passer. Not a terrific ball-handler, but he's got more iso ability than we've seen. Doesn't turn the ball over often, though he doesn't do a lot with it. Defends well.

He feels like a nice roleplayer; it's early in his career, of course; people said similar things about T-Mac (though DD isn't that large, can't handle the ball like that and isn't the same kind of help defender as was McGrady).

Your evaluation of DD is valid except I would say his mid-range is average, not good. The Key word is (in)consistency.

As far as your evaluation of Bargs, your somewhat right but are being pessimistic about his game. Andrea has shown relatively recently (past 10 gms or so) that he can put the ball on the floor and use his quick first step to get to the basket. I agree he does rely a hell of a lot on his jumper but when he is open and the defence fails to rotate in time, he has excellent range. The problem as you alluded to is that he is a finisher but cannot iso into a pull-up j for his life. If he is 1-on-1, he has to drive otherwise it's a failure.

[tsherkin]

Your evaluation of DD is valid except I would say his mid-range is average, not good. The Key word is (in)consistency.

That's a fair point; he's missed a few that really should have gone. His form is a little weird and he's certainly no Ray Allen or Dell Curry or anything, but he's also like 19 years old and it's the rare shooter who really shows at that age when he's also that athletic. What I meant was more that he separates himself well to GET the shot and that he's got the ability to get to spots and get off a shot.

As far as your evaluation of Bargs, your somewhat right but are being pessimistic about his game. Andrea has shown relatively recently (past 10 gms or so) that he can put the ball on the floor and use his quick first step to get to the basket. I agree he does rely a hell of a lot on his jumper but when he is open and the defence fails to rotate in time, he has excellent range. The problem as you alluded to is that he is a finisher but cannot iso into a pull-up j for his life. If he is 1-on-1, he has to drive otherwise it's a failure.

Bargs has always been able to put the ball on the deck and drive, as long as it's in a straight line. Since his rookie year, he's known that he can pump fake a defender flying out to get him at the arc and then drive right at the rim. He's good at that. He's got a couple of jab steps and a nice swing-through drive. His first step isn't quick, it's just decent, but because guys are so close to him because of his shot, it works as well as a quick first step.

In defense of Bargs, since it's something I didn't mention before, the Raptors do not LOOK to isolate him a lot. He's so good at finishing set Js that it's basically all he gets. I'm sure if we looked at him to isolate a little more, he COULD do it, to a point.

The real problems with him are that he's literally never going to be a good offensive rebounder, that he's a weak defensive rebounder (even in his improved form over the last 11 games or so) and that he's (even with his improvement of late) still a bad defensive center. That's different from "bad defender," because of late he's been decent, but he's by no means an impact player on defense, even of late. He's hustling more lately, and that helps, but he's not a good defender and it hurts us a lot.

He wouldn't help Phoenix (especially without Nash) and the return stuff doesn't help TO, which makes that a truly terrible trade.

[arizonatribe]

If Amare is not playing for Phoenix this summer and the Suns aren't willing/able to pull in a superstar player there are still plenty of good free agents and role players to consider.

GUARDS
Ray Allen
Eddie House
Larry Hughes
Nate Robinson
Will Bynum
Earl Watson
Kyle Lowry (R)
Steve Blake
Raja Bell
Derek Fisher
Sergio Rodriguez (R)

FORWARDS
Al Harrington
Amir Johnson
Tyrus Thomas (R)
Hakim Warrick
Joe Alexander
Udonis Haslem
Mike Miller
Drew Gooden
Luis Scola
Travis Outlaw
Kyle Korver
Craig Smith

CENTERS
David Lee
Brad Miller
Jermaine O'Neal
Brendan Haywood
Marcus Camby
DJ Mbenga

[grumpysaddle]

my favorite option as far as a rebuild so far is probably something that sends Amare to MIN for Jefferson and the rights to Rubio. Move Dragic over to SG/occasional PG. Dunno what to do about the rest of the team yet.

[JohnVancouver]

Nash is great and I'd love to see him in our awful uniforms, but not at THAT price.

Really? I think that after a long run of hideous, stab-pencils-in-your-eyes uni's, the Raps look good this past few years. The purple pinstipe and dribbling dino were particularly awful

[carey]

If Amare is not playing for Phoenix this summer and the Suns aren't willing/able to pull in a superstar player there are still plenty of good free agents and role players to consider.

Who will we get to replace Amare with the 7 million we'll have to spend? Not David Lee.

[arizonatribe]

If Amare is not playing for Phoenix this summer and the Suns aren't willing/able to pull in a superstar player there are still plenty of good free agents and role players to consider.

Who will we get to replace Amare with the 7 million we'll have to spend? Not David Lee.

Depends. Amare might be traded in a deal that nets us at least one 2010 1st round draft pick and saying there's a lot of Power Forwards in this year's draft may be the understatement of the century.

If for some reason Amare is traded and Phoenix does not have a 1st round pick or a big man in return who can box-out, grab rebounds, defend and/or post-up there are players like Luis Scola and Udonis Haslem to consider.

I would gladly sacrifice the above-the-rim athleticism and pick-and-roll know-how of Stoudemire for the solid defense of Haslem, the post-game of Scola or the general scrappiness and rebounding instincts of both those players. Scola is a hair above Amare's rebounding average (at 7 mins less per game), averaging more assists, fewer turnovers and fouls and right around 52pct from the field.

These guys shouldn't be overpaid by any means, and they aren't stars but they can play the Power Forward position the way it's supposed to be played and there are plenty of teams over the years that have had tremendous success with Power Forwards who were the 5th best scoring option on the floor but grabbed boards, set solid screens and knew the proper defensive rotations and their role.

[grumpysaddle]

UGH... no melty-face Scola. EVER. pleeeeease.

[tsherkin]

Really? I think that after a long run of hideous, stab-pencils-in-your-eyes uni's, the Raps look good this past few years. The purple pinstipe and dribbling dino were particularly awful

"Better than before" != good.

I hate the red uniforms. The home uniforms are fine. The black uniforms are OK, I guess.