Sugar Ray doesn't want to leave...

[mwhis21]

Lots of great points on this topic: Its a team game so its hard to single out any one person offensively or defensively that is the problem.

But the topic is not about the present its about the future: The present is the time to start looking at the future. With Ray Ray having a HUGE expiring deal his name is going to be slung through the mud pretty consistently. I tend to agree with the side of trading Ray if a Monta, Martin or AI comes along. People talk about career stats and its all history. We should learn from our own History of the early 90's.

I personally think Kevin Martin would be a great compliment to this team, IF he can stay healthy, but who knows. Its a gamblers world I guess.

[SichtingLives]

Dunkonface

If you want to say that Ray has lost a step and isn't shooting the ball as well that is real but the production argument is BS. His production is exactly the same. His track record is to shoot the 3 better in the second half of the season and if that occurs he will be essentially the same player he has been in Boston for the previous two years.

Now KG has gone from 19/9 to 15/7 over the passed 3 years missing huge chunks of time that is the production loss, his rebounding rate is at 14.6% don't talk to me how Ray Allen's production is down because he is 35% from 3 instead of 37%.

Your whistling passed the graveyard if you think Ray Allen is what is different about this team.

Sully, you're missing my point. Or you're intentionally glossing over it because you like Ray and don't want to reinforce what his detractors are saying. This isn't about "production", which is by most means a statistical measure and doesn't account for any more than 10% of what really happens on the court. You asked the question, "Why is Ray Allen the target?", and this was my response:

Because he's gone from our dead-eye shooter to a less dependable shooter who, might I add, does nothing else above average on the basketball court anymore. If you want to try and cover that up with season averages, fine. He's lost the speed to get open against quicker players (which at his age is pretty much everybody), he's a ghost on defense, not a particularly good passer, ballhandler or decision maker. That's not hate, that's what's going down night in and night out on the court.

The fact that his skills appear to be declining AND he's in a contract year is the reason he's being focused on. Do you really think it won't be the same for Paul next year or KG the year after?

And as I said, if you want to talk about Paul Pierce or KG's rebounding or KG's knee or Rondo's free throw shooting or Perks redevelopment of his counter-productive power dribble or Sheed's on and off switch or our miserable underperforming bench, I have no problem having those conversations. I was just sticking to the thread topic.

[Celts17Pride]

You know this is very simple, with the team they have now do you feel the Celtics can win the NBA title this year if everyone is healthly?

If the answer is yes then you don't trade Ray Allen. Enough of this baloney about the future, the future is NOW.

[captain green]

Dunkonface

If you want to say that Ray has lost a step and isn't shooting the ball as well that is real but the production argument is BS. His production is exactly the same. His track record is to shoot the 3 better in the second half of the season and if that occurs he will be essentially the same player he has been in Boston for the previous two years.

Now KG has gone from 19/9 to 15/7 over the passed 3 years missing huge chunks of time that is the production loss, his rebounding rate is at 14.6% don't talk to me how Ray Allen's production is down because he is 35% from 3 instead of 37%.

Your whistling passed the graveyard if you think Ray Allen is what is different about this team.

Sully, you're missing my point. Or you're intentionally glossing over it because you like Ray and don't want to reinforce what his detractors are saying. This isn't about "production", which is by most means a statistical measure and doesn't account for any more than 10% of what really happens on the court. You asked the question, "Why is Ray Allen the target?", and this was my response:

Because he's gone from our dead-eye shooter to a less dependable shooter who, might I add, does nothing else above average on the basketball court anymore. If you want to try and cover that up with season averages, fine. He's lost the speed to get open against quicker players (which at his age is pretty much everybody), he's a ghost on defense, not a particularly good passer, ballhandler or decision maker. That's not hate, that's what's going down night in and night out on the court.

The fact that his skills appear to be declining AND he's in a contract year is the reason he's being focused on. Do you really think it won't be the same for Paul next year or KG the year after?

And as I said, if you want to talk about Paul Pierce or KG's rebounding or KG's knee or Rondo's free throw shooting or Perks redevelopment of his counter-productive power dribble or Sheed's on and off switch or our miserable underperforming bench, I have no problem having those conversations. I was just sticking to the thread topic.

I think it's about the contract more so about his playing because the stats speak for themselves and so far ray ray and perk has played all the games,and as far as his production yes it has slipped so has kg's and the truths but we knew that was coming. I also would like to point out Ray was for a stretch of games the main scorer and d's' clamped down on him. And for all the talk he is still our best shooter.
I certainly do not put it on him for our troubles its our health I blame, and ray has been healthy along with perk. Now to the trade talk if he lands us AI2,K-MART or CARON BUTLER, GERALD WALLACE,PRINCE,SHANE BATTIER,KEVIN DURANT, BRANDON ROY, LUOL DENG DO IT. IF WE DO NOT GET ONE OF THOSE PLAYERS DON'T DO IT. Sign him next year for no more than 7 mill and try to find a better sg to start and place him as our current eddie house. If we can't find a SG expect ray as our starter next year as well.
NOTE: MONTA IS 6'3 AND CANNOT GUARD THE 2 SO HE IS OFF MY LIST.
I think DOF your a little harsh on the jesus, but not to far off and it is the contract like you said that makes him the focal point. And sully is about right on as far as his production points goes he's down about 1 or 2 shots that will come up by 2nd half like all his other years in the league.
peace
g

[tombattor]

You know this is very simple, with the team they have now do you feel the Celtics can win the NBA title this year if everyone is healthly?

If the answer is yes then you don't trade Ray Allen. Enough of this baloney about the future, the future is NOW.

I totally agree with you. I don't know why so many people are always looking forward to rebuilding. You build to win a title and for the Celtics, we've already built and rebuilt. We're going for it all this year. So I don't want any trade that makes us worse this year, even if that means getting younger.

[Cyclical]

Ray is a target because out of our starting 5 he is the least likely to hurt the team with his absence.

I love Ray but let's not get surprised why his decline is getting more attention. KG's difference is indisputable; PP is the only one who can create for himself; Rondo determines the pace and practically how this team plays; Perk may just be the best one-on-one post defender in the league. Ray's decline is getting more attention for obvious reasons.

I personally still want him as a starter til the end of this season so we can keep our chemistry going but I understand why next year is wide open.

[BRUNiNHO91]

You know this is very simple, with the team they have now do you feel the Celtics can win the NBA title this year if everyone is healthly?

If the answer is yes then you don't trade Ray Allen. Enough of this baloney about the future, the future is NOW.

I totally agree with you. I don't know why so many people are always looking forward to rebuilding. You build to win a title and for the Celtics, we've already built and rebuilt. We're going for it all this year. So I don't want any trade that makes us worse this year, even if that means getting younger.

Amen my brothers.

[Celts17Pride]

Ray is a target because out of our starting 5 he is the least likely to hurt the team with his absence.

So some people think. Wait til he is gone and the same people will be crying for him.

[Cyclical]

Ray is a target because out of our starting 5 he is the least likely to hurt the team with his absence.

So some people think. Wait til he is gone and the same people will be crying for him.

Hey, I'll personalyy miss him as well. I just think that out of our starting 5 he can be more easily replaced. Again, MORE easily than the other 4, not easily by any stretch.

[GreenDreamer]

He is an expiring contract to me, at this point. No way I want to see this team pay him 10 million next off season. He isn't worth that.

[Havlicek17]

You know this is very simple, with the team they have now do you feel the Celtics can win the NBA title this year if everyone is healthly?

If the answer is yes then you don't trade Ray Allen. Enough of this baloney about the future, the future is NOW.

I totally agree with you. I don't know why so many people are always looking forward to rebuilding. You build to win a title and for the Celtics, we've already built and rebuilt. We're going for it all this year. So I don't want any trade that makes us worse this year, even if that means getting younger.

Amen my brothers.

The problem with this team isn't Ray, it's our rebounding. We're giving up way too many offensive rebounds and second chance points. We keep team's shooting percentages down, but give them many more possessions than we get. Ray has stayed healthy, played the most minutes of anyone on this team and has little to do with the rebounding situation.

The future IS now, and I want Ray's experience and previous clutch performance resume on this team come playoff time.

[tombattor]

He is an expiring contract to me, at this point. No way I want to see this team pay him 10 million next off season. He isn't worth that.

Who cares about next season? We're trying to win it all THIS SEASON.