Anyone agree? No to all Ray trades*

[Hemingway]

Sorry to make another Ray thread but I feel it is a relevant subject as the trade deadline comes near. I consider myself having a pretty middle of the road opinion on most things, but lately I have found myself to be disagreeing with the majority of fans over Ray Allen.

I would not trade Ray unless:
A- We were going to get him back in 30 days
B- We get someone who we feel has the potential to be top ten a their position.

I also think we need to resign Ray in the offseason for as long as he want to play for.

I can understand people disagreeing with the first part; people on here always want to make trades. But if we don't trade Ray why would we not resign him? Everyone on the Big Show thought we would part ways with him this summer. On Celticsblog they have an article with him saying he would take a pay cut and a role reduction to stay here and tht he doesn't want to go anywhere else. So maybe more people agree with me than I think but it kind of feels lonely being a big Ray advocate these days.

[hairybyrd]

Of the players mentioned as being on the trade block I would trade Allen for Amare Stodemire, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin or Andre Iguodala. Otherwise, I hope we re-sign him for 2 years w a team option for a third. I think he'll re-sign surprisingly cheap, maybe even $5-7 million per year. If it was up to him he would retire a Celtic.

[Bad-Thoma]

I'm of the thinking that Ray stays and that's a good thing, he's still got some good years left and hopefully at reasonable moneys. However, if something comes along that makes the team better you do what you have to do.

[Banks2Pierce]

I agree with you that people are ready to sell him down the river for some average players, but if there is a time to upgrade our future and stay the same in the present, it is before this trade deadline.

[FeedReed]

i agree, i want to see him retire a celtic. pierce however i would look to deal if it would improve things.

[Captain_Caveman]

I posted a half dozen Trade Ray scenarios over the summer... back when we should have done so.

Not sure I do it now, as we would have to acclimate new players into our system.

Either way, it was beyond obvious that we were not going to get anywhere near the value from him that his $20m contract dictates.

I bet we could have had Stephen Jackson and Monta Ellis at one point or another.

[Celts17Pride]

In general I agree completely but if some team wants to give up a lot then I would trade Ray.

For example,

Andre Iguodala, Lou Williams and Wille Green for Ray Allen and Giddens.

[Papa Irish31]

I wouldnt trade ray allen now, unless we got butler and jamison back but i seriously doubt that would happen

i think we would be just as fine utilizing are other expirigns to snag a bench player than to try and mess with our starting lineup which isnt the problem for this team

id target prince or hinrich in a deal for house allen and scal rather than ship off allen

[captain green]

i agree, i want to see him retire a celtic. pierce however i would look to deal if it would improve things.

wtf

[irie]

I think it goes without saying that Ray could be included in any deal where we clearly are getting the better end of the deal. Like Hemingway said, top 10 at their position or potential to be there.

Otherwise, no. We don't use his expiring just to start acquiring draft picks and prospects. Why rebuild when this year and next we can compete for the championship? It's very unrealistic to say that we could still compete by acquiring a prospect in his place and letting him go.

[King Of The 4th]

i agree, i want to see him retire a celtic. pierce however i would look to deal if it would improve things.

Why didn't anyone tell me today was opposite day?

[Avalanche]

I trade him if it improves the team...

Martin, Iggy, Ellis etc... same position, younger and able to more consistantly carry the scoring load of a team through the regular season

I dont want to trade him just for the sake of it though

If he goes he wont get bought out, but we could always throw the Mid Level at him for 2 more years at the end of the season

Completely OT.. .but reding about the gilbert situation, if his contract goes.. and teams blow the big money on the lebron, amare, boozer etc's of the world.. would he end up down to a Mid-Level option himself? Re-sign ray to a lower contract with his rights assuming he stays and pick up Arenas to start for the MLE

[GreenDreamer]

He's willing to take a pay cut? Well how mighty big of him. You do know that he makes almost 20 million a year, right? He's taking a pay cut no matter what.

Role reduction? He needs a role reduction right now. He obviously can't handle the minutes he is playing. He has been pure garbage at the end of games for a while now. I got a real kick out of people going wild about his OT three the other night. Evidently they conveniently forgot all of the other bricks that he put up late in the game, including the overtime. He is front rimming a ton of shots, and has serious issues shooting off of the catch. His legs are dead, so he tries to go off dribble to get some momentum in his favor when going into his motion. He shouldn't be playing any more than 30 minutes a game, and might be better served playing even less. It should be noted that most of his looks are wide open. This fantasy that they are having a hard time getting him good looks is laughable. He gets plenty of them. Ray actually knocking those looks down? Now that is another story altogether.

Saying you want a top 10 talent at the two really isn't saying all that much. Ellis is that right now, and is quite frankly a better player than Ray is. A lot of twos are now. He still has value as a floor spacer, but some of that is illusory. It is kind of like how runners respected Dwight Evans' arm long after it lost its zip. He draws a lot of attention, but he isn't exactly lighting the world on fire when he does get open. I think that teams will start to realize that and adjust accordingly. Why give Rondo and Pierce lanes to the hoop over covering a guy who is a 35% 3 point shooter with no handle?

I'm not saying that I'm keen on Ellis. He is an injury risk and a pretty stupid player, but he is very talented and is playing some very good ball right now. If we could get a guy like Rudy Gay, long term, at a good price I wouldn't think twice about it. There are plenty of other guys who fit under that heading for me, and combinations of players too.

I could really care less if he retires a Celtic. Paul? If I would keep any of our vets all the way to the bitter end, just for old time's sake, it would be him. Not some dude who has been third fiddle here for less than three years.

[billfromBoston]

I think that's a bit of a harsh analysis on Ray's game - he is still a pretty damn solid player, he's just getting older.

However, now is the time to parlay his contract into a big-time palyer - i'd love Monta Ellis in terms of his explosiveness at the 2, but I do have concerns about his ability to adjust his game in terms of limiting over-handling, etc...

But i'd want a deal in place where Ray was being bought out and returned after the trade so he can start his career as a 6th man...that's where his value is the highest right now cuz he can still light it up, just not at the same frequency as he used to.

[GuyClinch]

Of course I don't agree the OP is acting on emotion not logic.

Ray has slipped but his shooting and all around game put him well above average. Like alot of older players he has become quite inconsistent. On some nights your really impressed on others your thinking Tony Allen is the better player.

So I have no qualms about moving him for a guy who is borderline great like Ellis and Iggy. Let's be real here - you should never say no to any trades without weighing the cost and benefits. If we can pluck a good player from a problematic franchise (usually one about to be sold that's slashing payroll) - hurray for us.

it's unlikely such deals will actually happen though. In this league its usually - young prospect for older star - not older star for young stud. <g> The only exceptions are teams with money issues..

[Papa Irish31]

the two trades i would be most interested in if i was going to trade ray would be:

ray and perk to Toronto for bosh, Derozen, and belinelli

ray and glen davis to Washington for caron butler and antawn jamison



i would also be intruiged by these

ray for maggette raja and randalph on the warriors

ray scal and tony for iggy dalembert and thad young

[sully00]

I love Ray Allen and do not want to see him traded I think this Ateams chances to win a championship this season would be hurt greatly with the loss of Ray. But you have to listen to teams that are desperate to move money and if someone offers you the right deal you have to take it.

At the same time the trade ideas that are coming out like Ray is now Raef LaFrentz is just friggin crazy. Trading for 31 year old 40% shooters is not going to help this team. Nobody is trading us guys on rookie contracts for Ray Allen why would Toronto add Derozen to a trade they are giving up Bosh in?

Maggette and Ellis is probably real, Butler and Jamison is probably real. There will probably be more that aren't as good talent wise but better financially. Those are the deals that Boston is going to have weigh the value of against Ray Allen.

[Captain_Caveman]

We just cannot take on that much long-term salary if we deal Ray, especially with a potential lockout and lower cap on the horizon.

You take that lux tax hit for guys like Pierce, not for the type of role players whose names are being tossed around here.

[Hemingway]

Hopefully Danny and Ray work something out where He agrees to take less money. This way we can trade him and get him back and not break the bank. If he will sign for the vet min for the rest of the season after we get him back and the MLE over the summer, we will only b 5 mil higher next year.

[sully00]

It isn't an issue of Boston shopping Ray Allen, the issue is other front offices and ownership in a panic about finances looking at Boston and wanting to just get the money off their books, they aren't going to win a championship this season and if they don't move these contracts now there may not be a way to move them again.

As Caveman pointed out role players are going to be a huge problem going forward. The Nocioni and Posey type contracts, even Sheed are probably going to be half the money this offseason. Teams with the MLE are going to look to split it and more importantly a lot of teams aren't going to have it at all. Even when the dust settles and teams are trying to make changes their is going to be lack of salary to even move in trades.

But the hardest part in all of this for Boston is that Ray Allen is still pretty damn good, more importantly he plays perhaps the weakest position in the league right now, so he gives the Celtics a huge production advantage. There are only two SG's in the East playing better than Ray, Joe Johnson and Dwayne Wade, max guys. In the West you have Roy, Kobe, Mayo, Eric Gordon, and Maggette and Ellis but neither of them are actually very good shooters they are more of a 1 and a 3 respectively. Even on this list only half of these guys can actually shoot 3's and stretch the floor.

Your other 4 starting spots are rock solid and you already have a great big on the bench. How do you upgrade Ray Allen if he is still one of the top 7 or 8 at the postion in the league and those that are better are either already max or soon to be max contract players?