Offensive firepower of our bench?

[klemen4]

Offensive firepower of our bench?

I think we have a very good bench, a great bench...BUT

We have a great "team" bench meaning any one of Wallace,Davis,House,Daniels,Allen can substitute any starter and play good in our team concept. Any one of those players have their strengths, all can play good defense, can be X factor to decide games in playoffs...BUT

Playing together on as the 2 unit we have a big problem because they are all team players and depend on each other to get the ball in the flow of the offense. Out of our bench only Wallace can play one on one in the post, the only offensive scenario we have. Lets look at the other players:
- T Allen: no outside shoot, bad hands, can score only penetrating but has problems on the way. Good for cutting to the basket, finding holes, garbage points, doing the small things.
- House: Great shooter, coming of the screens, NO one on one game, no penetration...depends on teammates finding him in open spots
- Davis: Again can score in the flow of the offense from midrange, some layups around the basket..but has limited one on one game, to small to take fade away jumpers or to go one on one against pf.
-Daniels: Again no outside shot, not a great scorer, but has the ability to go to the rim or post up...maybe only one besides Wallace who can get the ball and score on his own...but still limited and is not the guy who could take over and explode on offense.

We lack a player who can explode on offense, who can go one one one, who is a little selfish, who can score 10 points in a row, who is not dependent on teammates to make plays.

Lets look the start of the 4th quarter last night when we lost the game. Doc played bench, Atlanta first unit. We had a team on the floor of Rondo, House, T Allen,Davis and Rasheed...all we tried was Rasheed in the post, Rondo was out so the bench. Then Scal came in for Davis...same problems. Than Ray Allen come to change House ...all dependent on team offense and when there is no good passing our offense has no chance.

Can we solve that?

We have to find a combination of starting 5 on one hand and Pierce/Wallace duo with the bench.That way we have two guys who demand double teaming with our bench players and they can concentrate on their strengths and play within the team concept.

2 option is a trade. Magette, Robinson...even guys like Flip Murray can take over a game, explode on offense, give that extra kick. I think in playoffs if we go with Wallace/Davis + House+one offensive sf or pg we have that extra edge.

Again, we have a very good bench...but we mis that one offensive threat.

If we can find that guy and if we can solve offensive rebounding problem I still think we can get the ring. We a re very close, but I doubt we can beat LA in 7 games series without home court

[Celts17Pride]

Celtics bench is not very good at all. Players to go after include Maggette, Hinrich, Salmons, Nate Rob, Troy Murphy etc. There are plenty of players that could help.

It all depends on if Celtics management are willing to spend more money or not.

[klemen4]

I think the key is Pierce with the bench. Why not go with T.Allen and Davis as our first two substitution after 8 minutes.

Rondo/Allen/T.Allen/Davis/Perkins

Than in 2 quarter go with

Daniels/House/T.Allen/Davis/Wallace for first 2 minutes (Play the first 2-3 possessions on Wallace in the post till Pierce comes in) than Pierce substitutes T.Allen

Daniels/House/Pierce/Davis/Wallace

play the group till 6 minutes to go

than insert other starting 4, Pierce finishing the quarter.

[darrendaye]

Klemen, thank you for putting together a rational overview of what is actually on the bench. It's refreshing to have someone take a stance that fosters discussion rather than a defeatist attitude which is prevalent on the board right now.

I would mildly argue that Tony Allen can, at times, get on a scoring role. He is obviously very careless with the basketball and it often results with either the team freezing him out of the ball flow or he, himself, shying away from his own offense.

It has been interesting (and one could say disappointing) to see that having Rondo out there with that unit has little effect on improving their performance. Personally, I would like to see what would happen if Doc brought Wallace off the bench for Garnett earlier in games, and then bring KG back in to play with the reserves. I contend that with the offense flowing through KG, he would be a better passer than Wallace in finding House off of screens and both TA and Daniels (when healthy) for cutting opportunities.

That second unit, much like the first, is perimeter dominant with Wallace, House, and Davis. Will one scorer change the landscape so dramatically? Maybe. But, then again, to get a player of that quality you would have to purge much of what bench you already have. I would really like Doc to attempt to be more creative first to see if he can find a rhythm for that team.

[klemen4]

I think it is good that our bench players in a way duplicate our starters.

House a shooter scoring of the screens as Ray is.
Davis can hit midrange jumper such as KG.
Rasheed can post as Perk+ a bonus that he spreads the game to 3pt line.

So any substitution we make our gameplan doesnt change...EXCEPT

the Pierce substitution.

Both Daniels/Allen can play sf within the starting unit, but are very limited one on one, not great scorers.

I think one solution would be to play Daniels sf (he can at least post up, can penetrate and even hit some hard floaters) but we than dont have back up pg than.

[SichtingLives]

This team's biggest issue right now, on a very general level, is that we're only getting a solid offensive contribution out of 2 or 3 players on any given night, and it's often not the same 2 or 3 players from one game to the next.

The bench has zero chemistry and everyone except Tony Allen is having a down year compared to their past. The philosophy of mixing it up with Ray, KG, Pierce or Rondo with different bench units cannot cover up for the fact that there are just too many players on this team who are underperforming this year.

This is why we desperately need a few changes with the roster. It's true that the lack of production from many of our players is putting way to much stress on our most important players at a point in the season where they should (theoretically) be able to coast and rest a little bit. These guys are going to either be injured or all out of legs by April if this keeps up.

So Klem, I'm all for a trade. IF anyone thinks this isn't an urgent matter, wait until Cleveland lands a guy like Jamison, Murphy or Stoudamire and gets Leon back from injury. We don't need to be one of the better or best teams in the league, we need to be able to match up with and defeat those teams head to head.

[Jammer]

I've been saying this since before Cassell arrived. Finally coming around, eh.

[klemen4]

Just to compare lets look our benched 08, 09 and this year:

Who had a role in playoffs:

08:
Cassel-was bad whole playoffs but made one scoring run in one game(cant remember) that gave us win
House-mvp in one or 2 games
Posey-6man played great whole playoffs
Powe/Davis-both solid, one or 2 big games from both
PJ Brown-solid whole playoffs, one or two big games in finals I think

09:
Marbury-gave us nothing
House-again good, saved us in one or two games
Walker-played emergency pf against Chi when Moore fouled out
Scalabrine-well palyed 20 minutes per, got us 5 points
Moore-no words here


10:
Daniels
House
T.Allen
Davis
Wallace

No doubt we have a lot better bench than last year, no contest here...also better bench than in 08. House is on same level, we can compare Rashed effect to Posey effect, Davis is a lot better player than 2 years ago, Daniels/T.Allen vs. Casell/Brown is pretty close, but I would give edge to Casell/Brown because of their experience.

So, a better bench than 08, Rondo and Perk improved, KG and Allen regressed, Pierce is still on the same level. We will be close to get the 18th banner.

[Celts17Pride]

That second unit, much like the first, is perimeter dominant with Wallace, House, and Davis. Will one scorer change the landscape so dramatically? Maybe. But, then again, to get a player of that quality you would have to purge much of what bench you already have.

Not a problem, the bench sucks. Your binky Tony Allen is on chance number 1,256,789. How many chances does it take to find out he can't contribute on a consistent basis? House does one thing, Shoot and if he ain't doing that then he is useless. BBD has been awful. Rasheed and BBD are the worse defensive combo in the league. Not trying to pick a fight but enough of the excuses. The Celtics bench is awful.

[Al-Haqq]

We desperately need offense from our bench. DESPERATELY!

Tony - defense only

Daniels - defense

House - Streaky

Wallace - decent

Davis - struggling

Sheldon - no

Scal - no

We need a guy that can score for us, because our bench is killing us ... it looks much better on paper; much like the Laker's bench.

[darrendaye]

Not a problem, the bench sucks. Your binky Tony Allen is on chance number 1,256,789. How many chances does it take to find out he can't contribute on a consistent basis? House does one thing, Shoot and if he ain't doing that then he is useless. BBD has been awful. Rasheed and BBD are the worse defensive combo in the league. Not trying to pick a fight but enough of the excuses. The Celtics bench is awful.

I won't take the bait, and will remain on topic. I'll simply ask, why are you so ardent in defending Ray Allen's uneven play this season, providing "reasons" why this has occured, yet show little willingness to allow Rivers to first try to figure out if he can find a bench combination that works? Time is running out, in terms of trade deadline, so whatever buttons Rivers thinks he can press, he better press them now. But, Ainge came into the season believing this bench would be fine, and I'm simply willing to see if things can improve before stating unequivocally that all hope is lost.

[Ben-N1ce]

The biggest problem are

1) No backup point guard who can actually shoot an distribute. Marquis does not fit the bill. Secondly that would also help Rondo because no team is afraid of his J and they will give him it until proven otherwise.
2)) House has done nothing all year. Poor D and can't shoot unless is garbage time when we have been up big and he's chucking.
3) Baby breaking his hand. He's out of shape and this mid range game people speak of does not exist. He hasn't hit that jump shot that was his bread and butter all last year. I guarantee you he's hit less than 10 maybe not even 5 literally.

They need to get a guard or at minimal a big who does dirty work to improve or horrendous rebounding IMO. Who those players are I have no idea. They really should have tried to get selfish Iverson although I don't think he would have came off the bench.

[Avalanche]

shoulda got nate while he wasnt playing and was cheap

[Celts17Pride]

Not a problem, the bench sucks. Your binky Tony Allen is on chance number 1,256,789. How many chances does it take to find out he can't contribute on a consistent basis? House does one thing, Shoot and if he ain't doing that then he is useless. BBD has been awful. Rasheed and BBD are the worse defensive combo in the league. Not trying to pick a fight but enough of the excuses. The Celtics bench is awful.

I won't take the bait, and will remain on topic. I'll simply ask, why are you so ardent in defending Ray Allen's uneven play this season, providing "reasons" why this has occured, yet show little willingness to allow Rivers to first try to figure out if he can find a bench combination that works? Time is running out, in terms of trade deadline, so whatever buttons Rivers thinks he can press, he better press them now. But, Ainge came into the season believing this bench would be fine, and I'm simply willing to see if things can improve before stating unequivocally that all hope is lost.

I'm only saying that time is running out and this bench is not good enough to win a championship. I really believe the Celtics need just a few moves. The most important move is getting a real backup PG. I think Tony Allen and Marquis would be fine if the Celtics had a real backup PG. Hinrich, TA and Marquis would be awesome. The next thing they need to do is replace Leon Powe. BBD is not that player. A tough defensive minded PF that rebounds.

A couple tweaks and it's back on track for the championship. I just get fustrated at people who say no change is needed because that isn't the case.

Honestly, TA is one of the last bench players I would be looking to move. House, Scal, Walker, Giddens, Big Baby are all people I would move before TA.

[captain green]

Honestly, TA is one of the last bench players I would be looking to move. House, Scal, Walker, Giddens, Big Baby are all people I would move before TA.

uh, not really your talking all this need offense stuff and the only one that can shoot is house. yo mark my word T. allen will hurt his dumb ass self again this year,hopefully not with this team.
i'd move everybody not named rasheed and house and daniels if t.allen could bring the ball down in point guard fashion then I'd remove house or even daniels but he can't t.allen's turnover and fouls and low iq are costly. allen can play small 3's on d and mainly sg. house can play pg and sg. daniels can play all 3.

t.allen: at 1.65 t.o. and 2.3 fouls and 6.9 points at 18 minutes (damn good d but dumb ass hell)
e house: .47 t.o. and 1.2 fouls and 7 points at 16 minutes(only other player,rasheed, that can get hot on o)
m daniels: .89 t.o and 1.8 fouls and 5.7 points at 20 minutes(what a waste this year though he can play 3 positions)

I can't see keeping allen over house.

[SichtingLives]

Honestly, TA is one of the last bench players I would be looking to move. House, Scal, Walker, Giddens, Big Baby are all people I would move before TA.

uh, not really your talking all this need offense stuff and the only one that can shoot is house. yo mark my word T. allen will hurt his dumb ass self again this year,hopefully not with this team.
i'd move everybody not named rasheed and house and daniels if t.allen could bring the ball down in point guard fashion then I'd remove house or even daniels but he can't t.allen's turnover and fouls and low iq are costly. allen can play small 3's on d and mainly sg. house can play pg and sg. daniels can play all 3.

t.allen: at 1.65 t.o. and 2.3 fouls and 6.9 points at 18 minutes (damn good d but dumb ass hell)
e house: .47 t.o. and 1.2 fouls and 7 points at 16 minutes(only other player,rasheed, that can get hot on o)
m daniels: .89 t.o and 1.8 fouls and 5.7 points at 20 minutes(what a waste this year though he can play 3 positions)

I can't see keeping allen over house.

Ray Allen and Eddie Houses lack of defense or ability to hit open shots is costly. Until Ray breaks out of his extended slump give me more TA.

[campybatman]

It'll help to have Daniels back healthy from his injury, and if an attempt by Ainge is made to acquire a legitimate backup point guard to lead the second unit.

I would try hard to acquire either Randy Foye, Steve Blake or Acie Law.

In addition, Ainge must look to try to acquire another scorer. Boston lacks a reliable scoring option from the bench. House was supposed to be that player. I suggest you try to acquire either Nick Young, Daequan Cook or CJ Miles.

[darrendaye]

I have to give Doc credit for having Rondo run with the reserves in the 1st half. It's easier to give credit when something works, lol. But, then he deviated from that in the 2nd half when he put TA in a position where he had to initiate the offense. The concept of this thread that I agree with is that there needs to be a major scoring threat on the second unit. I believe the team would be well served to use TA as the second option on that team.

When Daniels comes back, my suggestion would be for Doc to take a similar approach with Rondo and include KG in the same vein. Let Daniels and Wallace come in early for Rondo and KG, then bring them back in when he goes with House and TA on the wings.

If they do find a decent trade opportunity, IMO, it should be a shooting wing at it should be with House as the rotation player that goes. I am not sure that the new guy necessarily needs to be a primary scorer per se, but he ideally would be able to shoot and move around a bit for open looks. For arguments sake, say you had Rondo, TA, Salmons, KG and Baby. You have two guys the defense has to be concerned about knifing into the middle in Rondo and TA, Salmons could serve as the shooter, KG should be more of a scoring threat, and Baby running around for the scraps.

[tombattor]

What's wrong with having 2 lines? We won a title with Doc's hockey substitutions. I like our checking line of Rondo, TA, Baby, Sheldon and Perk.

[darrendaye]

Another advantage of having Rondo on the second unit is it gives him more of a green light to score. But he's got to want it. Not so sure about a checking line, but in my hypothetical of trading for a guy like Salmons, it would be great to finally get back to an uptempo line with Rondo leading fast breaks and TA and Salmons able to get out in front and finish.