So Ray's dead huh........

[Kefa461]

That's all I read on this board......I will agree he's in a slump.........who are you gonna get who is better

Ray goes like this.......15.7 ppg 45% and 33.9 from the 3 and ranks still the # 50th scorer in the league for such a dead guy.

OK smart GM's.......get me someone better.

[Lewis35]

Ray has been in a "slump" for just about the whole season. His numbers are down all across the board. While he may not be dead he is really nothing more that a role player.

As for who else to get: Not sure which players are available. We will find out as the trade deadline gets closer.

[darrendaye]

Kefa, I admire your eternal optimism, but I'm sure you can find answers to this question within the various other threads that touch on this subject. Not that I agree with them.

[BRUNiNHO91]

Not dead, he is just sleeping.


I bet he settles down after the All Star break, and gets at least a little better. His vacation should help him relax a bit. A little time on the beach, chilling with his wifey and his kids..maybe that will do good things to Ray. Not to mention he is under the gun here, with everybody wanting him shipped out before the 18th. Dude probably has that in the back of his mind, along with the fear of being traded and having to move his son away from Boston hospitals. People probably don't think about this kind of stuff, but it has to affect Ray in some way. I know it would affect me.

[Pogue Mahone]

That's all I read on this board......I will agree he's in a slump.........who are you gonna get who is better

Ray goes like this.......15.7 ppg 45% and 33.9 from the 3 and ranks still the # 50th scorer in the league for such a dead guy.

OK smart GM's.......get me someone better.

It's not that he is a garbage player (which is the strawman you appear to be presenting.) It is that, due to the possession crunch, upside moving forward, weighing the opportunity cost of keeping him vs re-signing him in the off-season, weighing the pros and cons of splitting up his salary into more palatable bite-sized pieces, etc.

Just dumping Ray, imo, is stupid. Moving Ray for pieces which provide upgrade in other areas on their own and some of those pieces (perhaps coupled with existing chits) which could be further utilized to upgrade the entire team.

It is undoubted that Ray is no longer an elite player (and hasn't been for quite some time but minutes and opportunity often obfuscate the fact.) The crux of the issue is that, currently, he is paid as an elite player and moving forward, any upgrades are limited to exceptions to the salary cap. Using Ray's expiring $18M salary as a trade chit is just another function of the exceptions to the salary cap. Exploiting those exceptions for value and to couple them with other chits is one way in which the Celtics can accomplish a team-wide upgrade.

[Nolimit1211]

Would you give up Allen for VC?

Vince is the one DEAD. Allen doesn't rely on athleticism, he'll be fine.

[BillessuR6]

Kefa, Ray is not dead yet but he is nothing more than a role player at this point, sadly.

And for the trades...I think we have seen a lot of good proposals on this board in the last couple of weeks...

[Kefa461]

Kefa, Ray is not dead yet but he is nothing more than a role player at this point, sadly.

And for the trades...I think we have seen a lot of good proposals on this board in the last couple of weeks...

Pie in the sky proposals......nothing that makes the least bit of sense....at least IMHO....

Now for a role player his numbers look pretty damn good compare them to say......Vince Carter....role player?????

[Ben-N1ce]

How about looking at how he's playing recently

Month of January

.437 shooting .319 from 3 pt range 14.6 is not cutting it consider the types of points starting guards score on him. It's his 3 point shooting. That's were he's deadly. He shot 6 yesterday and 5 were wide open and he hit none of them. Last 8 games were we are an awesom 2-6

0-4
2-4
0-4
1-5
2-7
4-8
1-4
0-6

That is Sheedesque @ 24% . The majority have been good looks.

[Kefa461]

Would you give up Allen for VC?

Vince is the one DEAD. Allen doesn't rely on athleticism, he'll be fine.

My point exactly.......the shots will fall.

Ray will fine tune this and get the stroke back up to the levels he likes.

[kakopedi1]

I see it like this, Ray's still got good numbers but at his age he's better served on a younger contender with athletic bigs like a Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudamire. That way Ray can be a great 3rd or 4th option.

NOW after 2 years removed from our championship an older KG and Pierce may need some fresher legs at the 2spot, maybe not a deadly shooter like Ray but slasher with a dcent shot.

[BillessuR6]

Well, it is not just about him scoring points. His defense has really been below average this season...

[SilverQuick]

Well, it is not just about him scoring points. His defense has really been below average this season...

actually i really liked how he defend kobe yesterday. He did a good job on kobe imo

[Kids Are Alright]

I see it like this, Ray's still got good numbers but at his age he's better served on a younger contender with athletic bigs like a Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudamire. That way Ray can be a great 3rd or 4th option.

NOW after 2 years removed from our championship an older KG and Pierce may need some fresher legs at the 2spot, maybe not a deadly shooter like Ray but slasher with a dcent shot.

That's last night's Tony Allen.

[Celts17Pride]

That's all I read on this board......I will agree he's in a slump.........who are you gonna get who is better

Ray goes like this.......15.7 ppg 45% and 33.9 from the 3 and ranks still the # 50th scorer in the league for such a dead guy.

OK smart GM's.......get me someone better.

Ray is not dead and I wouldn't trade him but he shouldn't get more than 30 minutes per night. Nothing wrong with Tony Allen playing 20-25 minutes per game.

[JSABleedsGreen]

Well, it is not just about him scoring points. His defense has really been below average this season...

actually i really liked how he defend kobe yesterday. He did a good job on kobe imo

Ray did a decent job on a select few plays defensively on Kobe. The reason he sat the whole 2Q is because he couldn't do anything on Kobe. Kobe was doing whatever he wanted against Ray. Getting to every spot he wanted. He couldn't move to stay with him and couldn't muscle him from getting to the spot he wanted.

Tony Allen did not let Kobe get comfortable, he moved him out of position and he was fast to move to not allow Kobe to get closer to the rim. therefore creating a pass back out to the top of the key rather than to a slashing player cuttingto the rim.

TA was the far better option yesterday. Not necessarily on the season....but for sure yeserday.

[ryaningf]

How about looking at how he's playing recently

Month of January

.437 shooting .319 from 3 pt range 14.6 is not cutting it consider the types of points starting guards score on him. It's his 3 point shooting. That's were he's deadly. He shot 6 yesterday and 5 were wide open and he hit none of them. Last 8 games were we are an awesom 2-6

0-4
2-4
0-4
1-5
2-7
4-8
1-4
0-6

That is Sheedesque @ 24% . The majority have been good looks.

Yeah, Ray's not hitting and not defending. I could live with him if he were doing one or the other.

I'd point out one more thing: it's not necessarily the points that are getting scored on him. Instead, it's what his lack of perimeter defense does to the entire defense. When Ray's man beats him (or Ray gets caught in a switch with the PG and gets beat), it starts a chain reaction of help defense, the kind of defense we've been TERRIBLE at providing this year (our weak side rotations sometimes don't even START let alone make it into position), and the kind of defense which Ray Allen has been terrible at providing (see the Orlando game). To me, Ray Allen, while not necessarily a bad invidual defender, makes our team defense worse because of two things: can't defend the perimeter and doesn't rotate well to make up for other's mistakes.

Just a rough reading of this month's starting 2 guard point totals shows that it's not the specific matchup that is necessarily hurting Ray--it's just that he's a weak link in our team defense. Check out the point totals for oppposing 2 in Januarys:

3
44
12
7
36
9
11
3
12
12
17
6
27
19

That's about a 15 point average per game for the starting 2 guards. Basically, Ray Allen's a wash versus whomever he's matched up against. Add in the effect on team defense and the fact that Ray rarely provides anything else except good scoring and what you have there is a non-starting caliber player.

[Lewis35]

As someone said above Allen needs to be the 3rd or 4th scorer on a younger team. Celtics and Doc are relying on him way too much to score. When he does not score or hit shots (which has been all the whole season) it almost cripples the whole team.

[klemen4]

In our last 17 games(After Christmas win in Orlando):

in 11 loses he shot:

16/57 3pt
28%


in 6 wins he shot:

9/27
33%

If he and Rasheed would hit some 3pt we would win majority of those lost games.

[JSABleedsGreen]

In our last 17 games(After Christmas win in Orlando):

in 11 loses he shot:

16/57 3pt
28%


in 6 wins he shot:

9/27
33%

If he and Rasheed would hit some 3pt we would win majority of those lost games.

It's not just about scoring though. If either one of those players played any better defense we would win those games. If Rasheed can grab a rebound we could win some games. If Ray defends the preimeter better we can win some games. This team was built to be effecient on offense and over productive on defense. Neither one is meeting the quota