The Problem with Doc

[GreenDreamer]

Well, many of you were pooh poohing the people who criticized Doc for the minutes that he was playing Ray Allen. How do you like him now? Ray is completely burnt out by the end of games now. He can no longer reliably shoot on the catch, because his legs are so weak that he can't stop and get off a decent shot. He is flat out exhausted, and we are only halfway through the season.

Of course, the problem with Doc goes far deeper than this, IMO. This team does not run a coherent offense, and the guy who is behind this dysfunction is Doc. The Laker game was just themost recent, and most devatating example of this. It isn't just about single games either. This is a SEASON long issue, regarding instituting the principles that would lead to smart, effective basketball on that end. I'll elaborate.

Here are the stats for midrange jumpshooting (16 ft to the three point line) of two Celtic players.

Player A: 0.8 made per game, 2.3 attempted per game, FG 35%, assisted 17.6%

Player B: 0.7 made per game, 2.2 attempted per game, FG% 34%, assisted 32.1%

Well. Who are these two mystery Celtics?

Don't know? Player A is Rondo. Player B is Pierce. Why do I bring this up? At the end of the Laker game, Doc got it into his fool head that he would take the ball out of Rondo's hands, and put it into Paul's to have Paul set Rajon up for catch and shoot attempts from this range. Rondo, if you notice, is assisted on only 17% of his shots from this area. Translation: He takes his jumpers OFF OF THE DRIBBLE. Has all season. These numbers point out that Rondo is assisted on a shot at this range approximately once every SIX games. It is not a normal part of our offense, yet he is just about as good off of the dribble, efficiency wise, as Pierce is (who is assisted TWICE as much as Rondo from this area).

So, in the final minutes of a nationally televised game against our arch nemesis, Doc decides "Hey, what we really need to do is take the ball out of the hands of the guy with 12 assists and 3 turnovers, and put it into the hands of the guy with 1 assist and 4 turnovers, to set the first guy up for shots that he hardly ever takes and doesn't want to anyways." I agree with the premise that Rondo should be comfortable with taking these shots. the problem with that is that ZERO EMPHASIS has been put on getting him these shots this season, and Doc suddenly decides that the end of the Laker game is the time to start. Brilliant. If he wanted Rondo to shoot, he should have just continued to set picks for him.... but that would have been sane.

This is the story of Doc's offense. Doc does whatever the hell he WANTS to do (I have been belaboring this point for a long time now), and acts as if that is what SHOULD be done. It is the fault of the players for not executing whatever fool thought that comes into his head. He does not think ahead in the slightest bit. He does not have this team playing a style of basketball which leads to consistent offense. He si far more interested in trying to shoehorn players into his fantasy of what an offense should be, instead of playing the hand that he is dealt.

Another problem is the extremely BAD HABITS this team has. Evidently, according to Doc, if Rondo passes the ball to a guy, and that guy "didn't expect it; was surprised; thought he was going to shoot; etc." it is Rondo's fault for passing it, and not the target's for NOT CATCHING IT. Did you guys check out the turnover on the pass into Pierce in the fourth quarter, where Rondo had Gasol pressed out on him in the quarter and Paul cut diagonally into the post? Rondo passed Paul the ball, and Paul fumbled the pass away, and was OBVIOUSLY telling Rondo afterwards that he should have passed it to someone else. Here is my version of the conversation:

PP: "Man Rondo, you gotta swing that ball over to KG."

RR: "Actually, no I don't. I'm supposed to pass it to you."

PP: "The hell you are!!! If you don't get the ball to me as soon as I get there on the cut, I'm going to get trapped under the basket. You are supposed to swing the ball, or drive."

RR: "Well, normally you would be right, but in this case you are not."

PP: "OK, genius. Tell me why."

RR: "Your defender fell down flat on his face, and nobody else picked you up. You were standing 4 feet from the basket, without a defender within 15 feet of you.... I'm supposed to pass it to you."

I'm sure that the language wasn't so polite, but the content was probably pretty much the same. This team plays stupid basketball, where guys mechanically "execute" the micromanaged Rivers offense. I leaned in junior high school that when a guy makes you a catchable pass, that you could do something with, and you don't catch it that it is YOUR fault, not the passer's (my coach was a real hard ass).

This is just one symptom of the overall disease on on this team. This offense is an abomination. It is 100% on Doc's head. Don't think that I'm just looking to cover for Rondo and blame everyone else. The players need to be coached to play the right way. To actually play a brand of basketball wher you are EXPECTED TO USE YOUR HEAD. Where you make opportunitsic cuts, slide on the perimeter to get yourself open, work for better position in the post, and ALWAYS be ready to take advantage of a slip up by the defense. That is not what Doc does. He tries to micromanage each possession from the sideline. "We're going to get the ball to this guy," moronic, stand around and watch like a fool basketball.

He is a terrible coach.

[Bad-Thoma]

Even if you made a wall of text about how much you can't stand Doc every day.... oh wait you do.... I still don't agree with you. I stopped reading them though, so maybe you have some points hidden in there. I'll never know.

[CoachD]

+1000

I attended a coach's clinic last summer that he was paid to attend. He came in to discuss defensive schemes and he ended up doing a "ra-ra" lecture and sounded like a freakin' cheerleader.

He has a decent ability to manage egos ... but c'mon ... KG and Pierce got that team focused 2 years ago. You could insert a monkey behind the bench and it would make marginal difference. If you had a guy like D'antoni or another real X's and O's type coach you wouldn't even be DISCUSSING unloading Allen for scrubs and expirings ... a real coach would find ways to hide Ray's old legs and make use of his shot. and STOP EXPOSING KG to getting murdered off the bounce.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Couldn't your bellyaching have gone into last week's post about Doc? I too, didn't bother to read your whole wall of text in its entirety. I stopped reading after you suggested that Rondo should have the ball in his hands near the end of the game. Well, that would be a good strategy if Rondo was hitting his free throws at a 70-75% rate. Did you forget what happened with the Clipper game already?

[GreenDreamer]

Even if you made a wall of text about how much you can't stand Doc every day.... oh wait you do.... I still don't agree with you. I stopped reading them though, so maybe you have some points hidden in there. I'll never know.

Thanks for adding nothing to the dialogue.. oh wait, that is your specialty, right? The points really aren't hidden. Pretty starightforward.

Just as a helpful note: Complaining about the length of a post, and not its content, just means that you are a weak reader. It really isn't something to be proud of, IMO, but to each his own.

[GreenDreamer]

Couldn't your bellyaching have gone into last week's post about Doc? I too, didn't bother to read your whole wall of text in its entirety. I stopped reading after you suggested that Rondo should have the ball in his hands near the end of the game. Well, that would be a good strategy if Rondo was hitting his free throws at a 70-75% rate. Did you forget what happened with the Clipper game already?

Oh, I don't know, because the other games where Rondo came up huge kind of blocked that one out.

Yet another who thinks that a smilie face equals wit. Sad. As to your issue with reading, see my post above.

[GreenDreamer]

+1000

I attended a coach's clinic last summer that he was paid to attend. He came in to discuss defensive schemes and he ended up doing a "ra-ra" lecture and sounded like a freakin' cheerleader.

He has a decent ability to manage egos ... but c'mon ... KG and Pierce got that team focused 2 years ago. You could insert an monkey behind the bench and it would make marginal difference. If you had a guy like D'antoni or another real X's and O's type coach you wouldn't even be DISCUSSING unloading Allen for scrubs and expirings ... a real coach would find ways to hide Ray's old legs and make use of his shot. and STOP EXPOSING KG to getting murdered off the bounce.

I agree.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Couldn't your bellyaching have gone into last week's post about Doc? I too, didn't bother to read your whole wall of text in its entirety. I stopped reading after you suggested that Rondo should have the ball in his hands near the end of the game. Well, that would be a good strategy if Rondo was hitting his free throws at a 70-75% rate. Did you forget what happened with the Clipper game already?

Oh, I don't know, because the other games where Rondo came up huge kind of blocked that one out.

Yet another who thinks that a smilie face equals wit. Sad. As to your issue with reading, see my post above.

My post of emoticons >>> Your redundant walls of text.

It's amazing that you can type up such boring, verbose posts and disguise them as different threads, because they all say the same thing - Doc Rivers is stupid because his offense sucks. Why not keep it in the same thread you had last week? Your weak attempt at infusing humor into this thread by creating a conversation between Rondo and Pierce was also quite boring by the way. You're like the new Wolves2011 of this board. Congrats.

[Bad-Thoma]

Even if you made a wall of text about how much you can't stand Doc every day.... oh wait you do.... I still don't agree with you. I stopped reading them though, so maybe you have some points hidden in there. I'll never know.

Thanks for adding nothing to the dialogue.. oh wait, that is your specialty, right? The points really aren't hidden. Pretty starightforward.

Just as a helpful note: Complaining about the length of a post, and not its content, just means that you are a weak reader. It really isn't something to be proud of, IMO, but to each his own.

Well I don't think adding nothing to a dialogue is my specialty, but at least if that's the case I do it with a lot less words than you seem to.

As for being a weak reader I used to read your posts in their entirety until I realized how little the content varied, I've got better things to do with my time than read the same old rationalized rants over and over again. I get it, you think Doc sucks and Rondo is good. There really is no mystery, reminding everyone every couple days in long winded posts has gotten the point across.

[Bad-Thoma]

Well, I felt bad for giving you crap about your post without reading it so I took a minute or so to read through it... and now I want that minute back.

I did especially like your imagined conversation between Pierce and Rondo though, a fictionalized conversation really backs up your point. Nice work Matlock.

[SichtingLives]

Dude..... "The hell you are"???

Paul would never say such a thing.

[hard work]

GreenDreamer....do you coach somewhere?

[LAKESHOW]

well, this is an instance where i can understand as a LAKER fan. weve had some terrible coaches over here thru the years. guys who couldve walked outside of the forum or staples center now, and wouldve gotten jumped by some gangbangers.

but heres a tidbit of hope.

large groups of LAKER fans wanted to kill pat riley in the 80s for losing some titles for being a terrible coach. especially 1 against detroit. that might give some hope, because maybe it'll ease some pressure off of doc. who personally i have no depth knowledge or info on his coaching style, but i think hes a good coach . . . and thats because when we played you guys a coupla years ago, we got killed. so what happened from then til now?

anyhow thats all of the info i know about celtic coaches.

anyhow, peace out!

[GreenDreamer]

GreenDreamer....do you coach somewhere?

No. Just making observations. I think that a lot of these things are pretty obvious when you do not ASSUME that the coach is doing the best job that he can. I have a very good memory, and some solid knowledge of the game. Are there people on this site with more technical knowledge? Sure. Does Doc know a lot more about the game than I do? Yup.

IMO, though, that does not constitute a sufficient rationale for his decisions being OK. Kind of like how you wouldn't have to be a military genius like Napoleon to know that invading Russia late in the campaigning season, without adequate winter supplies is a bad move. Doc is no Napoleon, though. I have many times stated in my posts that I believe that Doc KNOWS HOW to run an offense pretty much any way there is to run it. The problem is what he WANTS TO DO. What he LIKES the most. The way that he would RATHER run it.

Just look at the Laker game. We dig our selves a massive hole, by taking the ball out of Rondo's hands. Doc goes to Rondo almsot exclusively in the second quarter, and "magically" we turn a double digit deficit into a double digit lead. The third quarter? Oh, he runs out the same offense we ran in the first quarter. It doesn't blow up in our face, but it is still very ugly. He goes back to Rondo briefly in the fourth quarter, but because some things went wrong (which mostly revolved around the bonehead moves of others, mind you), he reverted to taking the ball out of his hands again. Hell, in a situation where all we need was ONE POINT to tie the game, and two to win it, Rajon wasn't even on the court. It was disgraceful.... and something that he has foolishly done many times in the past.

"This time it will work. You'll see." That has been Doc's attitude for as long as he has been the coach of this team. He is determined to "prove" that the way he WANTS to do it is the would it SHOULD be done. What you want to do and what you should do often don't match up. He has yet to learn this.

I remember watching the fourth, and final game vs the Bulls a few years back. Before the KG trade. We went into the fourth quarter with a lead (as we had done in 2 of the previous 3 games). I was hanging out with my cousin at one of her parties. All of the guys were watching the game with me. So they are having a good time, and I tell them that in about two minutes time Doc is going to have three smurfs out on the court, and that we will slow the game down despite going with a micro lineup. They were all laughing at me.

"Why the hell would he do that?" they chided me.

"He'll do it because he did it in the last 3 games versus these guys, and he is as stubborn as a mule," I said.

"It wouldn't make any sense," they said.

"You'll see," was my reply.

What do you think happened? (True story, by the way. Whether or not you believe it is immaterial)

I had a good handle on him then, and an even better one on him now.

[jfs1000d]

MY GOD. Do we really have to go over this every time?

Rondo has turned into a terrific player.

But...

The reason he doesn't have the ball at the end of the game in a 1 SCORE scenario is because he is easily defended. Rondo isn't a threat to make a move so that means there is switching all off screens and Rondo's defender sags off to prevent the drive. The Lakers would BEG Rondo to take a 20 footer with the game on the line.

That's what would have happened. Rondo can't be in that position because his shooting range and consistency isn't his strength. NUMBERS ARE JUST NUMBERS.

Rondo would have to have settled for a 20 footer at the buzzer. I'll take Doc's Pick and pop with Ray Allen every day over the week over a Rondo jumper. Teams would play Rondo for the pass.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

MY GOD. Do we really have to go over this every time?

Rondo has turned into a terrific player.

But...

The reason he doesn't have the ball at the end of the game in a 1 SCORE scenario is because he is easily defended. Rondo isn't a threat to make a move so that means there is switching all off screens and Rondo's defender sags off to prevent the drive. The Lakers would BEG Rondo to take a 20 footer with the game on the line.

That's what would have happened. Rondo can't be in that position because his shooting range and consistency isn't his strength. NUMBERS ARE JUST NUMBERS.

Rondo would have to have settled for a 20 footer at the buzzer. I'll take Doc's Pick and pop with Ray Allen every day over the week over a Rondo jumper. Teams would play Rondo for the pass.

Dude, don't question GreenDreamer. Yeah, sure, he's not a coach, but he played ball in junior high. He knows the game.

[GreenDreamer]

MY GOD. Do we really have to go over this every time?

Rondo has turned into a terrific player.

But...

The reason he doesn't have the ball at the end of the game in a 1 SCORE scenario is because he is easily defended. Rondo isn't a threat to make a move so that means there is switching all off screens and Rondo's defender sags off to prevent the drive. The Lakers would BEG Rondo to take a 20 footer with the game on the line.

That's what would have happened. Rondo can't be in that position because his shooting range and consistency isn't his strength. NUMBERS ARE JUST NUMBERS.

Rondo would have to have settled for a 20 footer at the buzzer. I'll take Doc's Pick and pop with Ray Allen every day over the week over a Rondo jumper. Teams would play Rondo for the pass.

I guess reading a lot of words can be confusing for people. I'll try to keep my posts shorter in the future. When something is easy for you it is easy to overlook how difficult it can be for others.

1. I had a problem with Rondo not having the ball enough throughout most of the GAME, especially in the FOURTH QUARTER. Get it? I only wrote it down again and again and again.

2. I had a problem with Rondo not being ON THE COURT for the final play. Did you not realize that Rondo was not even out there?

3. Personally, I'd rather have Rondo run off a pick and get a jumper than run a play for Ray at this point. His legs are shot and he sucked the entire game. That shot he took looked horrible, and I am pretty sure that he stepped out of bounds on it to boot. If not, he was an inch away from doing so when there was NO REASON for it. Yeah, don't want your high scorer in rthe game to be taking a shot in that situation. Let's get it to the used up fella who has been shooting bricks all game long. Smart. They had 7 seconds to get ANY type of shot. They didn't need a three. Hell, all they needed was one FT to tie it.

[jfs1000d]

Rondo can't shoot. I have grown to love the player, but he is limited in this regard. The Lakers play Rondo different from everyone else because they use Kobe as a roamer. It's very had for Rondo in this scenario. You have to put in guys who can hit jumpers because chances are you won't get to the rim.

As far as the 4th quarter, I have a lot of problems with the bench and the lack of scoring. Doc is managing it right, they just aren't producing.

I just take issue with the Doc isn't a good coach thought. Bill Simmons hated doc a couple of years ago and suddenly he doesn't know what he is doing. All the Doc hate goes back to the complaints of Simmons over the years. Mike D'Antoni is better than Doc? The Mike D'Antoni that teams gagged because they were soft in the playoffs?

Doc is terrific off set pieces after timeouts, he manages egos well, and has a good philosophy. He is a good professional coach. He has turned Rajon Rondo into an all-star (it took a lot) and he has managed to get Ray allen, KG and Pierce on the same page.

Does Doc not get credit for Kendrick Perkins? That was a penny stock that hit if I ever saw one.
Doc has a philosophy in the regular season that the bench plays the second and early 4th quasrters. That allows the starters to be fresh for the stretch run.

Terrific pro basketball coach.

The problem with many Doc haters is they think its college where the coach calls out the plays and manages the game with an iron fist. That's not the case. I think Doc has been terrific as Celtics coach.

After Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan, who is better?

[GreenDreamer]

Rondo can't shoot. I have grown to love the player, but he is limited in this regard. The Lakers play Rondo different from everyone else because they use Kobe as a roamer. It's very had for Rondo in this scenario. You have to put in guys who can hit jumpers because chances are you won't get to the rim.

As far as the 4th quarter, I have a lot of problems with the bench and the lack of scoring. Doc is managing it right, they just aren't producing.

I just take issue with the Doc isn't a good coach thought. Bill Simmons hated doc a couple of years ago and suddenly he doesn't know what he is doing. All the Doc hate goes back to the complaints of Simmons over the years. Mike D'Antoni is better than Doc? The Mike D'Antoni that teams gagged because they were soft in the playoffs?

Doc is terrific off set pieces after timeouts, he manages egos well, and has a good philosophy. He is a good professional coach. He has turned Rajon Rondo into an all-star (it took a lot) and he has managed to get Ray allen, KG and Pierce on the same page.

Does Doc not get credit for Kendrick Perkins? That was a penny stock that hit if I ever saw one.
Doc has a philosophy in the regular season that the bench plays the second and early 4th quasrters. That allows the starters to be fresh for the stretch run.

Terrific pro basketball coach.

The problem with many Doc haters is they think its college where the coach calls out the plays and manages the game with an iron fist. That's not the case. I think Doc has been terrific as Celtics coach.

After Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan, who is better?

All ofthe Doc hate goes bakc to Bill Simmons? Uhh.... no. It is based on people watching him for years, and learning not to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I was with Doc for the first season. Obie didn't even run an offense, and I was happy to have a coach that did. He helped tighten up Paul's game, and the team got better, overall, though the personnel changes by Danny didn't hurt making that happen. I knew some people even then who didn't like him, but I was willing to give him "the benefit of the doubt".

Then came the "Rip Hamilton, 0.8 second Fiasco" in Doc's second season. I was at the game, and my buddy immediately spotted that Doc didn't have anyone guarding the inbounds pass, though you could see Raef arguing with him pointing to the inbounder. hamilton gets off a free shot. We lose.

Do you know what Doc said after that game? That he thought that the only play the Pistons had was to throw it at the rim for a tip. When I heard that I freaked out. He didn't even KNOW that you could catch and shoot in that situation. He didn't know a basic rule of the game which at leat half of the fans watching the game knew. I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt from thereon.

We lost TWO games that season in which the players not knowing the timeout situation was pivotal in the loss, and one of those players was Pierce. Why didn't they know? Because Doc never bothered to make sure that they did in the huddle during the timeouts. If that happened once it would have been bad. It happened TWICE. Seriously. My frigging CYO coaches knew to do that.

I watched this guy endanger the health of his players on MANY occoacions. Remember him playing Wally for 40+ minutes on back to backs when he was obviously dragging his leg behind him? How about Delonte and his concussions? Doc kept on putting him out there when Delonte hadn't recovered, and West would have to come out of the game 10 minutes in because his head was spinning.... and then Doc would do it again the very next game. Him riding Al, and calling him a pussy when it turned out Al had bonespurs in his ankles? Scalabrine last season? Oh, and he is running Ray Allen into the ground... yet again.

His unbelievable pig headedness should be apparent to all. I think it quite sad that the MAIN reason most of our younger players got any playing time, even when we were bad, was because a vet got hurt. Gomes couldn't get on the floor, neither could Al, or Perk. Rondo wouldn't be an All-Star this season if Doc had his way. He wouldn't have even got on the floor. I paid VERY close attention to what went down in Rondo's rookie season, and Doc was doing everything he could to bury the kid on the bench, and the massive number of injuries wouldn't allow it. This when the the kid was the best point guard on the team coming out of the pre season. Hell, he was obviously the third best player o n that team (even if it was FULLY healthy) by the end of the season.

Going micro and slowing the game down? Being brought in by Danny to run an uptempo offense (that was Danny's SPECIFIC intent) and then doing whatever he wanted to when he got the job. These are OBVIOUS things. I, and the others who don't like this guy, didn't need Simmons to tell us how to think. I have PLENTY of good reason not to like him.

Doc should get credit for Perk? Danny sticking him with Perk is the key. If you want to give anyone credit for Kendrick, give it to Cliff Ray.

Doc is terrific off of set pieces after time outs. Why? Well, he gets to micromanage a possession to get a specific guy or two a specific shot. The problem is that you cannot do that for a GAME ( and he makes his best attempt at it).

D'Antoni? If his organization actually was interested in winning, they would have had the players to win a Title. The fact that they did so well without that kind of commitment is a testament to his ability. By the way, when were we a "tough" team before 2007-2008? Name me all of those tough Doc Rivers squads before then. Yeah. I thought so.

I'd take Adelman over him ANY day. Nate's been doing a great job in Portland. I wonder if Lawrence Frank could do a better job ( I found it VERY interesting that the Magic have brought Frank in to help with Vince). D'Antoni? Well, he would run a FUNCTIONING offense... and still have Tom running his defense. Larry Brown? Doc isn't anywhere NEAR him as a coach. The ones you named, and maybe a few others. Doc is middle of the road.