NBA/ABA Decades League Discussion Thread

[pancakes3]

I was surprised by the McHale pick almost as surprised as i was by the 2nd round payton pick. How is there not more criticism of that pick? I guess you could rationalize it as a consequence of pressure from the previous Walt Frazier pick to compensate.

Personally I'm surprised/relieved that 3 PFs (Dirk, McHale, Barkely) went right before my planned pick of McaDoo. I think there are some F/C in the 70s that are being overlooked and might go undrafted since so many PF's + 70's players have been taken.

I'm also dying of laughter at Sampson being named a PF replacement for Mchale especially with Barkley still available.

[BlackIce]

Whadda guys think over my Mutombo pick over Thurmand? I was going back and forth on both but Thurmands fg% scared me away. I'm interested to see the order some of these wing guys go.

[Miller4ever]

^^I'da picked Thurmond. FG% is one of his very few weaknesses, and he was a more complete player that Mutombo in many respects. That why I took him....

Basically most 60's players are going to have sub-par FG% except for the few amazing players.

[Miller4ever]

I was surprised by the McHale pick almost as surprised as i was by the 2nd round payton pick. How is there not more criticism of that pick? I guess you could rationalize it as a consequence of pressure from the previous Walt Frazier pick to compensate.

Gary Payton is the best defensive PG of all time, basically. many others can match up in other respects, but Payton will mitigate other PG's in this league.

[CellarDoor]

I was surprised by the McHale pick almost as surprised as i was by the 2nd round payton pick. How is there not more criticism of that pick? I guess you could rationalize it as a consequence of pressure from the previous Walt Frazier pick to compensate.

Personally I'm surprised/relieved that 3 PFs (Dirk, McHale, Barkely) went right before my planned pick of McaDoo. I think there are some F/C in the 70s that are being overlooked and might go undrafted since so many PF's + 70's players have been taken.

I'm also dying of laughter at Sampson being named a PF replacement for Mchale especially with Barkley still available.

I'm curious who you'd pick if not Payton, bearing in mind SFs were out from my autopick (Barry, Baylor), 80s were out (McHale, Moncrief), I was targetting one of three bigs from the earlier eras, all of which were still on the board when I get back on the clock. I also wanted to keep some 90s/00s flexibility, which Payton accomplishes.

The only arguments I could really see would be for you guys, Baylor, and running hybrid forwards, which I considered or picking up a guy like Barkley, who would've forced me to go away from where I want to later and removed my flexibility as well.

[CellarDoor]

^^I'da picked Thurmond. FG% is one of his very few weaknesses, and he was a more complete player that Mutombo in many respects. That why I took him....

Basically most 60's players are going to have sub-par FG% except for the few amazing players.

I've seen some of the more respected guys (Pen, TLAF) guestimate his stats in a modern era as lower scoring volume, but higher efficiency. I think I agree with this. He'd probably a 53-56% guy, but a lower volume guy nowadays.

[CellarDoor]

Anyways, the best steals so far are Walton (crazy peak...probably better than a C or two in front of him), Baylor (what'd he go, 8th in the 2nd round?) and Barry (always underrated, especially in a 1 year format)

The only REAL headscratcher for me is Wilkins.

[pancakes3]

I'm curious who you'd pick if not Payton, bearing in mind SFs were out from my autopick (Barry, Baylor), 80s were out (McHale, Moncrief), I was targetting one of three bigs from the earlier eras, all of which were still on the board when I get back on the clock. I also wanted to keep some 90s/00s flexibility, which Payton accomplishes.

i would have pretty much taken the guards that were taken immediately after Payton - namely Kidd and Wade. Kidd gives you more of the same playmaking, defense, and decade versatility that Payton offers. I would have chose Wade with that pick despite the lack of decade versatility. He's just a phenomenal talent, especially last season. That kind of playmaking from a 6'4 guy parallels Jerry West who was drafted a full round earlier.


@ Blackice
i think you made lemonade with the mutumbo pick. despite missing out most of the top tier centers, you still managed to assemble a defensively imposing frontcourt of KG/Mutumbo. However, with hindsight, you should have drafted someone like Ewing or Gilmore instead of the KG pick because the PFs available by your 3rd pick are a lot better PFs than Mutumbo is as a Center.

2 other 2cent thoughts:
Wade is a steal.
Drexler is a REACH.

[CellarDoor]

I'm curious who you'd pick if not Payton, bearing in mind SFs were out from my autopick (Barry, Baylor), 80s were out (McHale, Moncrief), I was targetting one of three bigs from the earlier eras, all of which were still on the board when I get back on the clock. I also wanted to keep some 90s/00s flexibility, which Payton accomplishes.

i would have pretty much taken the guards that were taken immediately after Payton - namely Kidd and Wade. Kidd gives you more of the same playmaking, defense, and decade versatility that Payton offers. I would have chose Wade with that pick despite the lack of decade versatility. He's just a phenomenal talent, especially last season. That kind of playmaking from a 6'4 guy parallels Jerry West who was drafted a full round earlier.

I considered Kidd, but went with the shooter, but worse playmaker. I've got Bird, remember, so playmaking isn't such a high premium, and this isn't to say Payton isn't a playmaker either, dude average 8apg pretty regularly.
Wade doesn't give me near the defensive punch and gives me a small-ish SG (he's 6'3, not 6'4, but he does have freakish arms and obviously the athleticism). Last year he had a statistically great season, but couldn't carry his team anywhere in the POs, if you choose his finals MVP year, you've got much worse defense and range. Also, choosing Wade would've FORCED me to get a shooter at PG. Now I can get by without a shooter at SG which allows me flexibility.

I don't know, if you're only able to come up with two names, neither being a slam dunk over Payton (and arguably not even better than in terms of my needs in this competition), then he's not the reach you were trying to push out there.

[SabasRevenge!]

I like that this game makes us take a hard look at Walton's peak. He's basketball Jesus around here and people still clamor about '77.

Observation:
Daily Dime's center rankings from '07 reads almost exactly like our draft board: Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Walton, Robinson, Mikan, Ewing.

I haven't heard much discussion about pace so far. In earlier eras, players were often working with dozens more possessions a game. Neil Paine wrote an interesting article about it about a year ago, comparing modern James to '62 Oscar @ http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1423.
The results:
James adjusted for '62 - 40/10/10
Oscar adjusted for '09 - 22/9/8
...and we haven't even started talking about the physical differences of the eras.

When looking at Zo or Thurmond, I jumped immediately to pace. '99 Miami played at an 84.8 pace, allowing 84ppg, while '67 GS scored 122.4 and allowed 119.5. Rick Barry averaged almost 30 shots per game for GS that year while Zo led the snail-paced Heat with 20.1 on 13.8 attempts.

[CellarDoor]

Anyone heard from Warpsite? I have an idea who he'd go with for one pick, but I'm really not sure on the 2nd.

[Miller4ever]

I'm about to pull off a steal. Woohoo.

[Warspite]

Whadda guys think over my Mutombo pick over Thurmand? I was going back and forth on both but Thurmands fg% scared me away. I'm interested to see the order some of these wing guys go.

I prefer Mutombo because of his size and because the blocks were recorded. IMHO if your considering either you already have an elite scorer on the wing so having Dekes fewer FGA only helps and his FG% adv is another plus. Thurmond had this pet 14ft shot that he loved but he couldnt hit. Kind of like Josh Smith thinking he was Ray Allen.

[Miller4ever]

Nate averaged 2.6 recorded blocks per game in his final 4 season. In his prime, it might not be farfetched to say he was better than Deke.

[CellarDoor]

Wow, I was thinking Warspite was a huge Thurmond fan. Must've been someone else.

I like Thurmond's positional defense more I think, but in reference to help D, it's hard to beat Mutombo.

[pancakes3]

I considered Kidd, but went with the shooter, but worse playmaker. I've got Bird, remember, so playmaking isn't such a high premium, and this isn't to say Payton isn't a playmaker either, dude average 8apg pretty regularly.
Wade doesn't give me near the defensive punch and gives me a small-ish SG (he's 6'3, not 6'4, but he does have freakish arms and obviously the athleticism). Last year he had a statistically great season, but couldn't carry his team anywhere in the POs, if you choose his finals MVP year, you've got much worse defense and range. Also, choosing Wade would've FORCED me to get a shooter at PG. Now I can get by without a shooter at SG which allows me flexibility.

I don't know, if you're only able to come up with two names, neither being a slam dunk over Payton (and arguably not even better than in terms of my needs in this competition), then he's not the reach you were trying to push out there.

I wouldn't say that Payton's a better shooter than Kidd. In fact, NJ kidd onwards was a decent shooter, and Dallas Kidd could even be considered a rather good shooter. Sure Kidd's fg%'s are low but that's because he doesn't take a lot of shots and the shots he does take are from 3. I guess IMO Kidd over Peyton was a no-brainer. I guess this isn't everyone else's opinion.

I also thought that Wade could definitely play point. He could at least do so as much as Magic and West played point. This was a case where i thought BPA > your team's needs. Again, just my opinion. I wasn't necessarily criticizing your choice but questioning my views when i said "surprised there isn't as much criticism". However, I still think that Wade and Kidd were clear choices above Peyton - slam dunks if you will. 2 names is plenty especially in a 5 round draft of all-time-all-league players. I'm not sure how many names you were expecting me to produce.

[CellarDoor]

I considered Kidd, but went with the shooter, but worse playmaker. I've got Bird, remember, so playmaking isn't such a high premium, and this isn't to say Payton isn't a playmaker either, dude average 8apg pretty regularly.
Wade doesn't give me near the defensive punch and gives me a small-ish SG (he's 6'3, not 6'4, but he does have freakish arms and obviously the athleticism). Last year he had a statistically great season, but couldn't carry his team anywhere in the POs, if you choose his finals MVP year, you've got much worse defense and range. Also, choosing Wade would've FORCED me to get a shooter at PG. Now I can get by without a shooter at SG which allows me flexibility.

I don't know, if you're only able to come up with two names, neither being a slam dunk over Payton (and arguably not even better than in terms of my needs in this competition), then he's not the reach you were trying to push out there.

I wouldn't say that Payton's a better shooter than Kidd. In fact, NJ kidd onwards was a decent shooter, and Dallas Kidd could even be considered a rather good shooter. Sure Kidd's fg%'s are low but that's because he doesn't take a lot of shots and the shots he does take are from 3. I guess IMO Kidd over Peyton was a no-brainer. I guess this isn't everyone else's opinion.

I also thought that Wade could definitely play point. He could at least do so as much as Magic and West played point. This was a case where i thought BPA > your team's needs. Again, just my opinion. I wasn't necessarily criticizing your choice but questioning my views when i said "surprised there isn't as much criticism". However, I still think that Wade and Kidd were clear choices above Peyton - slam dunks if you will. 2 names is plenty especially in a 5 round draft of all-time-all-league players. I'm not sure how many names you were expecting me to produce.

Bolded: problem is that's past prime kidd. He's still good, but nowhere near the defender that Payton was. At their defensive peaks there's not a discussion on who the better shooter is.

If you think that Wade can play the point as well as Magic (to a lesser extent, West), then I'm not sure there's a reason to continue the discussion. We're just philosophically different.

[Baller 24]

When Wade does play point, he plays fantastic. I was actually thinking about putting D-Wade at the PG position, I mean he is the primary play-maker for any team he's been on, in the same sense that LeBron is the primary play-maker. But you can just put LeBron at PG, his size doesn't really go well at the position, Wade however isn't as big, and at 6'4 he's actually perfectly fit to play the point guard position. You can put Wade at either position, but I guess the more safer choice is at SG, even though he's the primary ball handler and play-maker and his skills would perfectly adapt at PG.

[CellarDoor]

When Wade does play point, he plays fantastic. I was actually thinking about putting D-Wade at the PG position, I mean he is the primary play-maker for any team he's been on, in the same sense that LeBron is the primary play-maker. But you can just put LeBron at PG, his size doesn't really go well at the position, Wade however isn't as big, and at 6'4 he's actually perfectly fit to play the point guard position. You can put Wade at either position, but I guess the more safer choice is at SG, even though he's the primary ball handler and play-maker and his skills would perfectly adapt at PG.

He's still not even in Payton's league defensively, and I already had a closer. I'd also argue that making Wade guard PGs is a recipe for working him a bit too hard.

[pancakes3]

i guess i should have chosen my words better than "as much as Magic...". I meant that Wade could play out of position if someone as big as Magic was able to. I cited West because he was another "sg" who put high assist numbers as well as scoring like a fiend. The point was, i'd rather have Wade play point guard out of position than peyton play in position - kind of how in the olympics Wade, Kobe, and Lebron were on the court a vast majority of the time with Wade running point for long stretches rather than Paul, Deron, and Kidd.

edit: he absolutely is on peyton's level as a defender. also work too hard? you don't need him as a closer. why not let him chase people around?

also re: Mutumbo
He's a fantastic defender, no doubt, but like cellar door said - his man defense is suspect. In his 4th DPOY season - 2001 he was abused by Shaq. Granted it's prime shaq, but Mutumbo didn't even slow him down. Also in this competition, Mutumbo is going to be asked to guard prime... Shaq, Wilt, KAJ, etc.