Hinrich&Thomas game analysis?

[klemen4]

With all this Ray Allen rumors and the Chicago rumor of Hinrich and Thomas I decided to try to analyze the games of both player. I remember last year playoffs, some games I saw during the season but it is hard to say out of the head. I just download, watched yesterday game of Chicago in Philadelphia. Ok it is just one game but in general and based on my memory I can conclude some facts:

Hinrich:

- for sure a pg, not a sg....but still capable of coming of the screens
- very nice shot, his shot looks controlled
- very good passer, always looks for the best positioned player, good court vision
- very good defender and I noticed he always help teammates as help defender
- perfect for running our second unit
- very unselfish, doesnt need the ball to be affective

negative
-being pg and distributor not a great offensive threat...can score but can not take over the game
-no penetration

Thomas:
-very active, agile and explosive
-good rebounder and shot blocker
-can hit midrange jumper

negative
- very limited offensive game, poor post moves
- looks a little clumsy
- not high IQ player

As I see it Hinrich could play in Boston. Start the game being the first replaced with T.Allen, than return in start of the second quarter to run the second unit. His defense and help defense fits really good with our game, despite being smaller than Ray he is a better defender.We would lose Ray coming of screens so I think Rondo should and could play more aggressive attacking the rim becoming more of a scorer.
Thomas fits great with our second unit besides Rasheed. I see him as energetic guy who takes down few rebounds, dunks a few times and is active. He could really help us with our bigest weakness being opponents offensive rebounding.

To conclude...I think it is a trade we should really think about. Sure we lose Ray offense and 3pt shooting, but the way Ray is shooting this year we really could go with Hinrich. He would take less shots, be a second unit pg, better passer than ray...this really could work. Ok he is a little over payed with 9 mio, 6 would be great but really a solid player.Thomas fits the second unit as I said but that would mean we should than trade Big Baby+exp. for a 3pt shooting sf.

It would really be good if some bulls fans could post their review of the players if possible. They know them the best and I would appreciate that.

[klemen4]

I found this opinion in another threat, there are some similar points as I wrote:

Kirk Hinrich is a starting 2 guard. More importantly so is Paul Pierce and Ty Thomas can be a starting SF. So you create a situation were you not only fill holes and create depth but can also dictate matchups with the first unit.

Just take it in, as a starter at the 2 Hinrich is shooting 38% from 3 and is avg 11/4/5 this season and for his career he is avg 15/4/6 on that same 38%. More importantly though the Bulls are 13-6 with him in that role and 9-12 with him coming off the bench. Basically he is a player you can plug into Ray's 12-13 shots a game and lose a little scoring as he doesn't get to the line as much but can still bury the 3 and will give you increased rebounding and play making, and can actually run the point for your second unit and plays better defense.

You need to find a 3 pt shooting guard to pair with Rondo this guy takes half of his attempts from 3. He isn't Ray Allen but he may be as good a plug in replacement for Ray in the line up as Boston could find.

Now Ty Thomas is another issue all together. I think the biggest issue with Thomas is that he is just on the wrong team, the swap of him and Aldridge is about as dumb a concept as there ever was. Thomas and Deng are essentially the same player and unique at that. But here is a kid who is a 23 year old Shawn Marion. Maybe not the scorer and isn't the shooter but longer and better defensively and a shot blocker, he puts 14/10 per 36 and just can't get the mins. He isn't an offensive great player but he could be the heir apparent to Garnett defensively.

[celticfan42487]

There really is a Hinrich/Thomas rumour?

I thought I made that up with a

Hinrich/Thomas/Jerome James (expiring)

for

Ray Allen/ fillers (sheldon williams, tony allen, ect.)

We do have a 15th roster spot. And Jerome James is an expiring that makes the trade work. We can always buy him out if we want our 15th spot open.

[cfan79]

We'd have to get much much more then Hinrich and Thomas to make a deal worth it talent wise and salary wise. If its just these two and crap I'd rather just keep Ray. I think we can do much better with Ray and expirings. They must put Deng into the discussion or we should hangup on them.

[Andrew McCeltic]

That trade's only worth doing if (In) Danny (We Trust) believes that Thomas is an underutilized talent - the Shawn Marion comparison is interesting. As Bulls go, I'd rather have Deng than Thomas/James, but the Bulls look like they want to build around Rose/Deng/Noah and try to fill the other positions in free agency.

If Thomas is another Stro Swift, Drew Gooden lottery bust, you'd need to see who you could acquire by routing Thomas and James to other teams.

[cfan79]

Tyrus Thomas is too big of a question mark to be a focal part of the trade. We need players that we know are good. Thomas is just a throw in.

[threrf23]

Hinrich is a rich man's Derek Fisher (or at least has the potential to be). I view him as a PG, but he's the type of PG that fits best as a role player alongside better players. Arguably, a rich man's Eddie House, in any event. More of a PG than Eddie and a more capable defender in the backcourt (not that Eddie doesn't play D, but we can't rely on him to guard Jamal Crawford, per se).

Ty Thomas is a great (ETA - great is probably an exaggeration, but at least "good"), and versatile defensive asset. He can be can be as versatile on defense as KG can be on offense. KG can play SF and guard PF, Ty Thomas could guard SF and play PF (that lineup would dominate the boards, too). He would be an important piece against faster/athletic teams like the Hawks and could spend some time guarding Lebron vs the Cavs. He brings energy and can occasionally be an offensive force (while being an offensive liability on other nights).

This is not a situation where these two guys would be giving us too much talent to pass up. This would not be an ideal fit. But it would be close enough IMO to work out really well and to deserve serious consideration...

Of course, do the Bulls want out of Hinrich's contract that badly?

[s1a0m1m2]

We'd have to get much much more then Hinrich and Thomas to make a deal worth it talent wise and salary wise. If its just these two and crap I'd rather just keep Ray. I think we can do much better with Ray and expirings. They must put Deng into the discussion or we should hangup on them.

From the POV of a Bulls fan:

The Bulls would never include Deng in a deal for Ray Allen. Just a straight up Luol Deng for Ray Allen deal wouldn't even happen. Deng is putting up 18 and 7 this year, and he is a 6'9'' small forward who is still relatively young. He is one of our core pieces for building our future team. The only trade he would be in would be one that brings in a big time player like Chris Bosh.

So, back the idea of Thomas and Hinrich for Allen:

As a Bulls fan this trade sounds interesting for both teams. The Bulls could add a great 3-point shooter in Ray Allen to help spread the floor for Derrick Rose. The Celtics could pick up a point shooting guard hybrid who adds some versatility, a defensive presence, and can still shoot the ball, and they could add a little depth and athleticism to the frontcourt.

Most of the initial analysis on Hinrich and Thomas in this thread has been accurate. The Bulls have been playing much better ever since Hinrich got into the starting lineup. He is a great defender, and it is always nice as a fan knowing a guy is going to give the extra effort every time he is on the floor. He provides versatility in that he can shoot it coming off of screens, or you can give him the ball to run the offense. Definitely an unselfish player who is a good team guy and smart basketball player. With Hinrich, you know what you are going to get.

Tyrus Thomas is a bit of a different story, he is more of a wild card. Tyrus is one of the most athletic players in the game any time he steps onto the court, and he does bring energy, shot blocking, some rebounding, and some impressive dunks. However, there are times when Tyrus looks like he is absolutely lost in his own world, and it can be extremely frustrating when this happens as a fan. That is the thing with Tyrus, Bulls fans have had to learn to live with the good and the bad. His jumper can look great one game, and then be inconsistent the next. He can have a few spectacular plays one game, and then the next game take a rebound and dribble up the court full speed and run into an obvious charging call. There is a great chance that an environment like Boston with veteran players and a veteran coach could be exactly what Tyrus needs to get it figured out, but who knows, that is why he is a wild card.

[FeedReed]

not nearly good enough to replace ray

[s1a0m1m2]

Just a quick note, Tyrus is a good defender who provides energy, but I wouldn't expect him to be your Lebron stopper. He is far from a throw in though, because a lot of people believe Tyrus is a change of scenery away from being a lower middle class man's (a little better then a poor man's) Amare Stoudemire.

[cfan79]

From the POV of a Bulls fan:
The Bulls would never include Deng in a deal for Ray Allen. Just a straight up Luol Deng for Ray Allen deal wouldn't even happen. Deng is putting up 18 and 7 this year, and he is a 6'9'' small forward who is still relatively young. He is one of our core pieces for building our future team. The only trade he would be in would be one that brings in a big time player like Chris Bosh.

They don't have to trade for Bosh. If they trade Deng for an expiring like Ray's they could get him in the offseason along with possibly Wade. Right now they are a playoff team, but next season they could be a top 4 team in the East.

[cool007]

Would you do this deal?

Bulls trade: Luol Deng + Kirk Hinrich + Pargo (expiring) + Hunter (expiring) to Celtics.

Celtics trade: Ray Allen + Daniels + House

Works in the trade machine. I and probably most Bulls fans would simply HATE this trade but I would not mind it.

BTW, Deng and Hinrich would thrive in Celtics and their system. You are almost guarantee to win the title and good thing is both of those are our 2 BEST defenders so that is a big plus for you guys.

[s1a0m1m2]

From the POV of a Bulls fan:
The Bulls would never include Deng in a deal for Ray Allen. Just a straight up Luol Deng for Ray Allen deal wouldn't even happen. Deng is putting up 18 and 7 this year, and he is a 6'9'' small forward who is still relatively young. He is one of our core pieces for building our future team. The only trade he would be in would be one that brings in a big time player like Chris Bosh.

They don't have to trade for Bosh. If they trade Deng for an expiring like Ray's they could get him in the offseason along with possibly Wade. Right now they are a playoff team, but next season they could be a top 4 team in the East.

That'd just be a bad trade for both teams. Why would the Celtics want to take on Deng's huge contract when you have Paul Pierce at SF? Hinrich would replace some of Ray Allen's shooting, add a very good perimeter defender, and he could provide stability for the second unit.

[cfan79]

Would you do this deal?

Bulls trade: Luol Deng + Kirk Hinrich + Pargo (expiring) + Hunter (expiring) to Celtics.

Celtics trade: Ray Allen + Daniels + House

Works in the trade machine. I and probably most Bulls fans would simply HATE this trade but I would not mind it.

BTW, Deng and Hinrich would thrive in Celtics and their system. You are almost guarantee to win the title and good thing is both of those are our 2 BEST defenders so that is a big plus for you guys.

I'd do it, even though it would hurt our payroll even more. It all depends on whether the owners would be willing to break the bank.

[cfan79]

That'd just be a bad trade for both teams. Why would the Celtics want to take on Deng's huge contract when you have Paul Pierce at SF? Hinrich would replace some of Ray Allen's shooting, add a very good perimeter defender, and he could provide stability for the second unit.

The Celtics already have a high payroll. So we won't be getting anyone big through free agency like the Bulls could.

[sully00]

To me this sums up the situation in his last two games Thomas has put up 9/9 with 8 trips to the line and 12/6 in 15 mins a game. It wasn't all pretty don't get me wrong some tough shooting some turn overs but we are talking some explosive play and DelNegro can't find more than 15 mins for him.

The Bulls have the same problem they always have they have nice pieces, not all stars but starter quality pieces but 11 starters with no stars doesn't work. He and Deng do a lot of the same things they aren't pieces you put on the floor together so Thomas is screwed.

Hinrich is a 15/4/6 guy as a starter in the NBA over 400 games shooting 38% from 3, the Bulls just always end up shuffling him out of the starting line up because of his versiatility. Look I love Ray and have very mixed views on this but how would it be bad to trade those numbers for Ray's 16/3/3 and pick up a piece that we have nothing like or any hope of getting with late first rounders and the MLE.

[GreenDreamer]

Would you do this deal?

Bulls trade: Luol Deng + Kirk Hinrich + Pargo (expiring) + Hunter (expiring) to Celtics.

Celtics trade: Ray Allen + Daniels + House

Works in the trade machine. I and probably most Bulls fans would simply HATE this trade but I would not mind it.

BTW, Deng and Hinrich would thrive in Celtics and their system. You are almost guarantee to win the title and good thing is both of those are our 2 BEST defenders so that is a big plus for you guys.

I'm down with a trade that brought Luol and Kirk in. I like Ray, but the two of them are >>>>>>> than one Ray.

Another thing that I like, to be honest, is the idea of having a shooting guard who isn't a scorer first, but still can spread the floor. I'm starting to think that having Paul and Rondo up their shot totals would add more consistency to our offense. There are simply too many mouths to feed now, and why not have a 2 guard who is content to live off the scraps? The Celtics get caught up too myuch in trying to spread the offense around, IMO.

Deng would especially allow us to match up with a team like the Hawks and would be positively invaluable against the Cavs. He is alos very young. I'm not for getting rid of Ray just for the sake of it, but such a deal would be great, IMO.... and I had a thread which revolved around this idea a few weeks ago.

[jmr07019]

The real question I think is what can Thomas, our first and other spare parts fetch us back. Ideally we could get one of KMart / Ellis / Iggy back as most people don't seem to like the idea of Kirk starting. My pipe dream would be:

Boston sends: Ray, TA, 1st
Boston gets: KMart, Nocioni, Kirk

Chicago sends: Hunter (small expiring), Thomas, Kirk
Chicago gets: Ray

Sacto sends: KMart, Nocioni
Sacto gets: Thomas, TA, Boston 1st

Not only would we have an incredible bench (Kirk, House, Daniels, Nocioni, Davis, Williams, Sheed) but we would be set for the next few years as we could afford to let House and Quis walk and replace them with young, cheap players (maybe buy a late first off someone?). Additionally Kirk and Nocioni's deals expire the same year as Sheed's and KG's. However I doubt Sacto does this but maybe if they're desperate to save money and get a player that fits better next to Martin.

Another similar idea, with a team rumored to be more desperate to shed salary, would be to send Thomas, our first and w/e else for Maggette and Ellis or just Ellis.

[sully00]

After a day of hashing this thing over I am less interested in the Hinrich/Thomas for Ray move. I really like both players but I just keep thinking about the 4th quarter of a playoff game and lots of Sheed airballs instead of Ray daggers and I can't deal with it.

But if it was Deng/Hinrich I think I am sold, however unlikely. I mean Pierce is fine at SG hell Deng for Allen probably makes us a better team on its own and Hinrich is a huge boost to the bench.

But it seems pointless for CHI.

[Ortho Stice]

kirk hinrich is pretty terrible, but he'd make a better back-up PG than eddie house, because he doesn't struggle dribbling the ball up the court and is a decent passer. if we trade ray for kirk and don't get him back via a buyout then we may as well trade garnett for jared jeffries while we're at it