CBS Sports: Ainge Inquiring Kings Regarding Kevin Martin

[Avalanche]

I dont think its the ideal move (iguadala) but if we can get Ellis/Martin i think we have to go for it..

i like ray as much as the next guy, but its obvious we need an offensive injection and some energy, he just happens to be the best trade chip

[sully00]

Just to clarify on the point about the Kings financials. If they are at 40 in salary then with a lottery pick and cap holds they are looking at 45mil on a cap that is likely to be at 51-53 mil. They would barely clear the MLE which means they are at the cap.

If they move Martin and Nocioni for Ray Allen they can add that 5-7 mil to the 18mil owed Martin and Nocioni and be really under the cap. The ycould go to Minn for example at the draft and simply say give us Al Jefferson for this package of picks and no money, or go into FA with not only cap space but some young talent to make sign and trades happen.

[rpa]

Just to clarify on the point about the Kings financials. If they are at 40 in salary then with a lottery pick and cap holds they are looking at 45mil on a cap that is likely to be at 51-53 mil. They would barely clear the MLE which means they are at the cap.

With the recent rumbling of better ticket sales the ultra-low cap looks almost impossible at this point. $53mil is probably at the lower end of projections now.

If they move Martin and Nocioni for Ray Allen they can add that 5-7 mil to the 18mil owed Martin and Nocioni and be really under the cap. The ycould go to Minn for example at the draft and simply say give us Al Jefferson for this package of picks and no money, or go into FA with not only cap space but some young talent to make sign and trades happen.

You're missing the part about where the Kings (like many other smaller market teams) will NOT be a big time free agency destination. So, sure, the Kings get cap space but WHO do they spend that space on that's better than Martin? They aren't getting Wade, Lebron, Bosh, Amare, or Joe Johnson. Boozer and Camby are both a little long in the tooth for a rebuilding team. So really, who does that leave?

As for your Minnesota example: they're already under the cap as well (in fact about $10mil further than the Kings). Trading Jefferson for nothing would mean they'd need to find a way to blow $30mil in free agency despite not being able to attract a single big name.

BTW, there was a blurb in an article the other day that specifically said "the Kings are not looking for 2010 cap space". Presumably for the exact reasons that I've stated over and over again.

[sully00]

rpa

No offense dude but the "Kings not looking for 2010 cap space," sounds an awful lot like "Danny Ainge laughs of Ray trade rumors," and "Kings are telling other teams they don't want to deal Martin." Yet here it is trade rumors all around.

My point is that I am sure Petrie has tried to move Martin for a good young big man and nobody is biting. Obviously if he thinks it will work with him and Evans they stay the course but what is the point if it isn't? After this trade deadline Martin's contract becomes hard to move as a lot of salary above the cap is out of the league, even in Boston were they want to spend outside of very wacky S&T situations or re-signing Ray Allen they will be cutting 15 mil in payroll. You can forget about stuffing Nocioni in his gym bag.

Look every team knows there own teams situation better than those from the outside, but the Kings have a lot more options to improve their team with that financial flexibilty free agency aside than they do staying the course. Look how quickly OKC, POR, and now Memphis rebounded, the Kings may have gotten that guy in Evans, why not stockpile first rounders and build around him?

[rpa]

No offense dude but the "Kings not looking for 2010 cap space," sounds an awful lot like "Danny Ainge laughs of Ray trade rumors," and "Kings are telling other teams they don't want to deal Martin." Yet here it is trade rumors all around.

Except Danny Ainge moving Allen makes perfect sense logically. As a $17mil expiring contract his value will never be any higher than it is right now (and for the next week or so until the deadline). Plus, if the Celtics let him expire it's not like they can go spend that $17mil on another player; they'd still be well over the cap. Logic says that if you can get quality pieces for Allen that you do it.

Now let's look at the Kings. They're probably not going to win 30 games this year and they play in Sacramento. Are you going to sit there and tell me that it makes sense, logically, for that team to trade 1 of its best players for cap space? How does it help them when they can't even hope to replace him in free agency?

Further, the funny thing about all the rumors you're talking about: they never talk about the Kings wanting to move Martin. They all say "so and so team is interested in Martin [but the Kings insist he's not for sale]". You can't use the "teams want him thus he's on the block" logic because, quite frankly, it makes no sense.

My point is that I am sure Petrie has tried to move Martin for a good young big man and nobody is biting. Obviously if he thinks it will work with him and Evans they stay the course but what is the point if it isn't? After this trade deadline Martin's contract becomes hard to move as a lot of salary above the cap is out of the league, even in Boston were they want to spend outside of very wacky S&T situations or re-signing Ray Allen they will be cutting 15 mil in payroll. You can forget about stuffing Nocioni in his gym bag.

Saying "it won't work" after so few games (pertaining to the Martin/Evans pairing) is just shortsighted. As I said in another thread on this very same subject: on paper Martin & Evans are a near perfect fit (because the Kings still have Evans pegged as a PG). Why give up what you think could/should be a perfect pairing for pennies on the dollar?

You can say a lot of salary is out of the league but it also means a lot of salary now becomes expiring. This summer a team like the Knicks suddenly has $17mil in expiring contracts (Curry/Jeffries) that they could send for Martin. It's not like salary is flat out disappearing--it's merely shifted around. So the Celtics may not be able to get Martin after the deadline but other teams will have the contracts to match up.

As for Nocioni, all indications are that the Kings would like to move him but aren't willing to pay a premium to do so. Why would they? He can still provide a good 20-25 minutes per game as a backup and he has a mere 2 years left on a declining deal. Would it be nice to get him off the payroll? Sure, but the Kings aren't in a Knicks-like situation where cutting another $5-8mil off their payroll means they can make an offer for 2 max players (and have a legitimate chance at landing them).

Look every team knows there own teams situation better than those from the outside, but the Kings have a lot more options to improve their team with that financial flexibilty free agency aside than they do staying the course. Look how quickly OKC, POR, and now Memphis rebounded, the Kings may have gotten that guy in Evans, why not stockpile first rounders and build around him?

It's funny that you argue that the Kings would be much better off with cap space then use OKC & POR as examples of teams that have rebounded. Fact is, cap space had absolutely nothing to do with OKC or Portland becoming a good team. Portland got good because of good drafting (Roy & Aldridge) and a rich owner that allowed them to purchase what seems like every 1st rounder up for sale (Rudy Fernandez and I believe Batum, Rodriguez, etc. as well). OKC got good from luck (Durant), drafting (Westbrook), & trades (Green). They did make a trade with the Suns that netted them 2 first rounders but the first of those 2 1st rounders (Ibaka) has done little to make them a good team this year.

Anyways, "stockpiling" 1st rounders is somewhat of a myth/misconception. You don't win by stockpiling a bunch of low picks and then developing players. You win by getting high picks and developing stars. Low picks are exactly what the Kings would be stockpiling if they used the cap space from any Martin trade to absorb salary. That isn't going to help them much in the long run. Basically they'd just be trading Kevin Martin for a couple role players 5 years down the road--a pretty **** package.

Further, there are more options than "trade him now for pennies on the dollar" & "keep him long term". Maybe the Kings wait 'til draft time to move him. By that time a team like the Jazz (who have a huge hole at SG) may look at trading their Knicks' pick (once thought to be a possible top 3 selection) that fell to the 10th or worse selection & fillers for Martin. Or does a team like Philly lose out big time on the lottery and decide to add some much-needed outside shooting to a veteran team? Who knows what happens. All I know is that trading Martin now for what amounts to useless cap space (since the Kings aren't in a great position to take advantage of it) just reeks of desperate move--and a team who isn't winning anytime soon should be the absolute LAST time in desperation mode.

[greenmachine_2849]

I'm definitely willing to throw Perkins' name into talks, eitanr. He is a solid player, but in no way is he untouchable. We'd have to get a rotation caliber big in return, though.

Why don't you toss in Rondo too? No offense, but I'm glad your not GM of the Celtics.

Go to the Kings forum, no one is exactly crying about Martin leaving. What does that tell you?

That Tyreke Evans is nasty and their games don't mesh?

You're seriously daft if you think Perkins is untouchable. He is severely overrated in Celtics fandom.

And did I say to toss in Rondo or are you going after a strawman? Yea, that's what I thought.

Perkins may not be untouchable, but it has probably been a good two decades since we have had as good of a center. Probably since the 90-91 version of Robert Parish. And you could say that the centers we have had in the interim isn't exactly a who's who of great NBA centers (Acie Earl, Eric Montross, Pervis Ellison, Travis Knight, Vitaly Potapenko, Tony Battie, Mark Blount, Raef LaFrentz, etc.), but that's kind of the point. Right now center is about the last position that I am concerned about addressing in the next 5 years; if I was Ainge, I would think long and hard before trading a top ten center (maybe top five) away.

As far as Martin goes, even if he is the wondrous complement to Pierce/Rondo/Garnett that some people seem to think he would be, the fact of the matter is that he is injury-proned. In five full seasons, he has missed on average 1 out of every 4 games. This season, he is going to play in AT MOST 50 games, which will bring that ratio up even more. Take what we have been going through with Marquis Daniels and multiply it by ten (since Martin would be a starter and would leave an even bigger hole when he missed his usual 30 games), and that about sums up my thoughts on Martin. It's not a question of if he misses a lot of games, but when. And that is conceding that he would even be a good fit on the Celtics when in the line-up, which I am a little skeptical about.

[Collinto]

When I heard this, I thought the following...let me know, is this crazy?

Ray for Hinrich, Thomas, James (previous sun times rumor)

but Boston sends

Thomas, James to Sac for Martin

Maybe Bos throws in a pick, but is that close to what is reportedly 'wanted' by every other team?

Thanks.

[jking]

Ray Allen 45% FG Pct, 34% FG Pct, 89% FG Pct, 16.0 PPG on 12.6 shots per game, played in 49 out of 49 games. Expiring contract.

Kevin Martin 38% FG Pct, 36% FG Pct, 84% FG Pct, 20.7 PPG on 16.2 shots per game, played in 18 out of 50 games. 3 years @ $36 million left.

What am I missing?

Panic move.

How about that Ray is almost 35, and Martin just turned 27 last week? Kind of a big deal no? So what is the perk of keeping the expiring contract you mention? To have space to sign a good player right? Oh right, Kevin Martin is just that, at the same position, and young. He'll be 30 when his contract expires, not 35.

[sully00]

rpa

I have actually argued that Evans and Martin should be fine together the issue is more about paying anyone 10+ mil to lose 50 games.

While I could see the attractiveness of striping it down like I mentioned and using the cap space to aquire #1's for short term veteran contracts in this case my guess is that Boston tried to get the Kings to take Hinrich and Ty Thomas with Ray going to CHI and Martin and Nocioni coming to Boston and Thomas didn't go over any better Sacramento than he probably did in Boston.

[rpa]

I have actually argued that Evans and Martin should be fine together the issue is more about paying anyone 10+ mil to lose 50 games.

The team is going to pay that $10mil to someone regardless of what happens. It's not like the Kings are right up against the tax (or way over the cap) and that $10mil saved is actually $10mil saved. It's just $10mil that will goto different players. While the NBA no longer does salary "slotting" (and hasn't for a long time) think of it that way--the Kings will have to find player(s) to slot into the $10mil hole Martin's departure would leave.

my guess is that Boston tried to get the Kings to take Hinrich and Ty Thomas with Ray going to CHI and Martin and Nocioni coming to Boston and Thomas didn't go over any better Sacramento than he probably did in Boston.

I have a feeling Hinrich went over even worse with the Kings.

[IEcelticfan]

Been reading the Globe's articles, Herald's as well, CB, our msg boards here, and have come to a realization that, much as I hate to admit it, I don't want to keep my expectations high. We'll see where this thing is headed in about 1 1/2 to 2wks, let's see if there are any improvements, roster-wise, health-wise, defense-wise.

Right now, no, we are not elite.

Danny, do what it takes to get us #18.

[Lewis35]

This is on topic with this thread I believe.

Trading Ray Allen only hope for C’s

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/bask ... _ainge_cs/


They looked older than Abe Vigoda and sloppier than Patches Kennedy. It was a national TV game against a tough conference rival, with their entire lineup back together on their home floor, and yet the Celtics [team stats] appeared as disinterested Sunday as Neil Patrick Harris at the Lingerie Bowl.

It has been two days now since the most humiliating performance of the Garnett-Pierce-Allen era, so let us not accuse Danny Ainge of being the impetuous type. If he were, he would have taken a flamethrower to his team by the time it reached the locker room after the 96-89 smackdown at the hands of Orlando. If Ainge were inclined to panic, Ray Allen would be traded by now, and Rasheed Wallace would be starting for the Maine Red Claws tonight.

We say again: Nine times in the last 45 days the Celtics have had a lead of 10 points or more - and lost. That is the very definition of a dysfunctional team. So trading Allen and his expiring contract would screw things up? Is that possible at this point?

As we know, the Celtics have no shot of getting under the salary cap and bidding on the big free agents this summer, so it makes no sense to hold onto Allen’s contract. It’s just a more valuable commodity for another club, a team that is angling to make a run at Bosh, Wade, LeBron, whoever. They need the contract. The Celtics need young legs. Ainge has nine days to find a match.

We know Danny loves Ray. Everyone loves Ray. How can you not? He’s been a great Celtic and a great citizen, but he knows the drill. He is guaranteed $19.7 million this year. He is not guaranteed a job in Boston. Time for Ray to go. It’s not personal. Just business. Just like old Abe Vigoda said.

[sully00]

I have a feeling Hinrich went over even worse with the Kings.

Really see I would think he is exactly the guy the Kings would want. A guy who can be effective on and off the ball and shoot 3's and play some defense and act like a pro. He would seem like a great fit in the backcourt with Evans.

[rpa]

I have a feeling Hinrich went over even worse with the Kings.

Really see I would think he is exactly the guy the Kings would want. A guy who can be effective on and off the ball and shoot 3's and play some defense and act like a pro. He would seem like a great fit in the backcourt with Evans.

He would be if he was younger (he's nearly 9 years older than Evans) and if he was the Hinrich from 3-4 years ago. Most don't take a look at this but Hinrich's been atrociously bad the past 3 years.

[sully00]

Hinrich is fine, the problem is that the Bulls jerk with his role. He is pretty consistent when his minutes are as well, which is what most NBA personnel people see and why they are interested.

[rpa]

Hinrich is fine, the problem is that the Bulls jerk with his role. He is pretty consistent when his minutes are as well, which is what most NBA personnel people see and why they are interested.

Well, he's seeing 32 minutes per game this year and he's playing like crap. 2 years ago, before the Bulls drafted Rose, he was seeing nearly 32 and playing nearly as bad. I personally think he's on a decline that he's never going to come back up from. That is: the Hinrich of 2006-2007 isn't walking through that door.

[UGA Hayes]

I agree. To me the main appeal in Hinrich is that you posibly get a semidecent big in Thomas, albeit one with attitude problems. He is not useless, but I don't dee him as a particularly big up grade over Allen unless he is capable of becoming a spot up 3-point shooting 2 guard. You would have to hope that being on a perenially weak offensive team has put Hinrich in a spot where he takes shots he shouldn't. I'm not convinced. However of all the deals this seems like the one with the best chance of happening.

[sully00]

That doesn't tell the story he has started roughly half the games now and in those starts put up 12/4/6 on 36% 3pt% and the Bulls are 14-9. This out of position at the SG spot. He played well off the bench last year and a shooting slump early in 06-07 but still produced. The biggest problem with HInrich is that he isn't going to break anyone down off the dribble. Other than that he produces on both ends, obviously it is a major drawback, unless you have Tyreke Evans at the two.

Trust me if Boston could find away to get Martin and Hinrich in this deal we would be fine with it.

[GuyClinch]

I don't like quantity over quality trades - and that's what a Hinrich Thomas deal is.. Neither player is better then Ray Allen - who most agree isn't all-star material anymore..

With the Ellis, Iggy, or Martin deals your getting guys who are better or at least have a very likely shot to be much better very soon then Ray Allen. Hinrich is just not a very good NBA player. He doesn't have much length, shooting ability or athleticism.

[darrendaye]

Hinrich is a decent player, but he's overpaid. But, IMO, to say that other GMs would be eager to acquire him is offbase. To me, you look at him as one of the best of the bad 3 or more year contracts. Hinrich is a "he's better than nothing" move for a team with an expiring contract they want to deal or would require a sweetener for a team to take on for a shorter contract otherwise. To see the trade proposals on the Bulls board where the C's give up a 1st round pick PLUS Ray Allen for Hinrich, is completely overvaluing Hinrich's worth to any team.