Official Game Thread: Nets vs. Bucks [Feb. 10th; 7:30 pm]

[verticalhops]

Question - Do you honestly think Lopez is as good as Bogut on the defensive end or potentially could in time pick up Boguts skills in that area? Brooke always had bogut on offensive production but that gap is narrowing dramatically re this season and todays game. Bogut isn't even close to reaching his ceiling. He is only young still and his game has dramatically improved this year beyond everyones expectations. He is putting up those kinda numbers on a playoff team. I can see you think he is good, but your still vastly underrating him. Lopez is a good player i just can't see him developing the defensive skills bogut has.

[blkout]

Lopez is better, a 1 or 2 game sample size means nothing.

Here, I recommend you read both of these when you get the chance:

I didn't want to troll your thread, and verticalhops is an idiot so don't pay attention to him, but Lopez isn't better statistically. He scores a couple more points but is less efficient from the field (.505 eFG vs .523) and turns the ball over more, isn't anywhere near as good a rebounder, doesn't block as many shots and Bogut's obviously a better defender (100DRtg vs 109). His assists are higher which is impressive and he's great from the FT line but really stats don't favor him too much.

He is younger though and hasn't had injuries. I'd be surprised if he's not better than Bogut by his 5th season.

Jersey Generals is right, for the Nets Lopez is a better fit. But I repeat, verticalhops is a troll.

[NetsForce]

^ I don't mind you saying Bogut is better and then giving reasons for why you think so, but: ^

1. Why are you using EFG% instead of TS%?

Lopez's TS% .575:
Bogut's TS%: .544

(eFG% only accounts for the fact that a 3PT field goal counts more than a 2PT field goal, TS% accounts for that difference AND free throws, given that we're looking at 2 big men I just don't see the logic in using eFG%).

On that note I think it's safe to say that Lopez > Bogut offensively and there really is no argument otherwise (something else to consider is that pace and minute adjusted Lopez still averages more APG than Bogut).

2. Bogut is the better rebounder though it's interesting to note that in terms of pace and minute adjusted offensive rebounding per game the two are about equal, it's in defensive rebounding where there is a bit of a margin in Bogut's favor... I wonder however just how large this margin would be if the Nets could stop anybody hence making more defensive rebounds available.

TRB% partially accounts for this and Bogut has the edge there, so once again I'll say that Bogut is a better rebounder than Lopez but given that the Nets are historically bad there's a little bit of apples to oranges syndrome going on here...

3. This is similarly why I'm not a big fan of defensive statistics you really can't factor out / in things such as (lack of) team defense, etc.

Bogut has a wider base and three more years of experience so I'm fine with saying Bogut is a better defender (I don't think you can look at their shot blocking #'s to come to that conclusion though)...

---

I could go on and on but what it boils down to is that:

Offensively: Lopez > Bogut
Defensively: Lopez < Bogut

I personally feel that the difference in their offense is greater than the difference in their defense hence why I believe Lopez > Bogut (without even factoring in injuries, age, etc. like you mentioned).

[Total_Package]

I personally feel that the difference in their offense is greater than the difference in their defense hence why I believe Lopez > Bogut (without even factoring in injuries, age, etc. like you mentioned).

haha lets be honest. All of New Jersey would be doing backflips of delight if Bogut was traded to there for Lopez..... and most of the NBA would be scratching their head as to why the Bucks would do the deal.

Yeah I can understand you talking up your man and being fiercely loyal but seriously.... there is not a hope in hell that Lopez is better than Bogut now... and there is a fair chance he will never get to the level Bogut has been playing at.

[Baddy Chuck]

vertical is a tool, I would suggest you just ignore him.

[NetsForce]

haha lets be honest. All of New Jersey would be doing backflips of delight if Bogut was traded to there for Lopez..... and most of the NBA would be scratching their head as to why the Bucks would do the deal.

Yeah I can understand you talking up your man and being fiercely loyal but seriously.... there is not a hope in hell that Lopez is better than Bogut now... and there is a fair chance he will never get to the level Bogut has been playing at.

Haha lets be honest. Offensively Lopez is on a level Bogut has never reached, troll.

Also, you have things things backwards the few remaining New Jersey fans would commit seppuku if Lopez was traded for Bogut, the rest of the NBA would be scratching their heads, and Bucks fans would be having a party...

It's clear that your irrational Lopez "hating" comes from the fact that the Bucks took Joe Alexander over him. That didn't exactly work out for you guys did it ?

[blkout]

1. Why are you using EFG% instead of TS%?

Lopez's TS% .575:
Bogut's TS%: .544

(eFG% only accounts for the fact that a 3PT field goal counts more than a 2PT field goal, TS% accounts for that difference AND free throws, given that we're looking at 2 big men I just don't see the logic in using eFG%).

I mentioned Lopez' FT shooting later in the post, but what I was referring to was their field goal percentage. eFG is a better measure of just field goal shooting, I could've used FG% but that favors Bogut as well.

On that note I think it's safe to say that Lopez > Bogut offensively and there really is no argument otherwise

Lopez turns the ball over more than Bogut, is a worse shooter from the field and is averaging only 3 more points per game on the worst team in NBA history. I don't really see how you can see there is no argument otherwise.

2. Bogut is the better rebounder though it's interesting to note that in terms of pace and minute adjusted offensive rebounding per game the two are about equal, it's in defensive rebounding where there is a bit of a margin in Bogut's favor... I wonder however just how large this margin would be if the Nets could stop anybody hence making more defensive rebounds available.

TRB% partially accounts for this and Bogut has the edge there, so once again I'll say that Bogut is a better rebounder than Lopez but given that the Nets are historically bad there's a little bit of apples to oranges syndrome going on here...

You're complaining about me using eFG instead of TS% then you want to use pace adjusted rebounds per game instead of TRB%? That entire paragraph was hypotheticals. If Bogut was on the Magic he'd be playing 15 minutes per game backing up Dwight Howard, if Lopez was on the Lakers he'd be getting 5 shots per game, if my aunt had a penis she'd be my uncle etc...

Bogut has a wider base and three more years of experience so I'm fine with saying Bogut is a better defender (I don't think you can look at their shot blocking #'s to come to that conclusion though)...

I wouldn't draw that purely from shot blocking numbers, but Bogut is far superior there anyway... I think it's 4% to 5% BLK% or something like that. Bogut's a league renowned defender for a C now, Lopez might get there but he's not at that point right now.

I personally feel that the difference in their offense is greater than the difference in their defense

Like I said above, the only offensive advantages Lopez has over Bogut are FT%, assists and he scores a few points more on a God awful team. I'm sure most people would take 3 points per game less from Lopez if it meant he was shooting a better percentage from the field and turning it over less.

That being said, If I were running the Nets I wouldn't trade him for Bogut. Considering the age difference and where the Nets are it it would be a stupid move.

[NetsForce]

I mentioned Lopez' FT shooting later in the post, but what I was referring to was their field goal percentage. eFG is a better measure of just field goal shooting, I could've used FG% but that favors Bogut as well.

Getting to the line and the resulting points from it are part of "field goal shooting".

Lopez turns the ball over more than Bogut, is a worse shooter from the field and is averaging only 3 more points per game on the worst team in NBA history. I don't really see how you can see there is no argument otherwise.

He averages more turnovers while playing more minutes and receiving significantly more defensive attention on a historically bad team. Think about that.

As it is their turnovers are comparable but if you were to switch their teams and ask Bogut to carry the offensive load Lopez has been burdened with his turnovers would go up while his FG% would go down.

Regardless let's not blow things out of proportion when talking about FG%. Of 33 players averaging more than 18 ppg Lopez is one of only 11 shooting 50% or better from the field.

Bogut is far superior there anyway... I think it's 4% to 5% BLK% or something like that. Bogut's a league renowned defender for a C now, Lopez might get there but he's not at that point right now.

He should probably get more attention for what he does on defense but he's not a "league renowned defender", primarily because he's a major liability in pick and roll situations.

I'm sure most people would take 3 points per game less from Lopez if it meant he was shooting a better percentage from the field and turning it over less.

...There's so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin.

[60cent]

It's gonna be hard to compare the two right now. Brook needs more experience and Bogut needs to show some more durability before we talk about them. It's not fair for both of them.

Potentially, Brook has more upside and it has a lot to do with Bogut's health. IMO, Bogut right now is more superior because he has more experience, and because of that, his moves are more fluid and it creates better shot for him. He doesn't force his shots, therefore, he gets easier baskets.

I think Brook needs to work more on his footwork and a go-to post move, he definitely needs better coaching. Many are saying that his BBIQ is high but im not really sure about that. One time, i was watching this game, and at the end of the first half, 1.3 secs. remaining (i think), a long pass to him all the way close to the 3pt line and instead of shooting the ball, he passed the ball to Jarvis, and before the ball even got to Jarvis, the buzzer went off and the refs blew their whistle and ended the half.

That is just one of the obvious lack of BBIQ by Lopez. If there's one thing Brook's doing better than Bogut, it's got to be the positioning. He knows how to position himself without the ball, just too bad there's really nobody to deliver it to him and with the lack of better coaching, it just makes everything hard for him and that's why he ended up forcing his shots, and i believe that's one of the reasons why he gets frustrated and he likes to show it.

[verticalhops]

This is a dead debate. The only thing Lopez has on Bogut is his age and free throw percentage.

Watching the game today, Bogut is streets ahead of Lopez. He is a far superior defender, averaging more rebs, blocks and far greater bball iq. His team is playoff bound and his ppg is improving every game (only 2.8ppg behind Lopez). Please stop the comparisons. You talk about the ceiling of Lopez, what about the ceiling of Bogut, next year he will average more ppg than Lopez, mark my words. No bucks supporter would trade Bogut for Lopez anymore, maybe at the start of the season but not anymore.

Don't get me wrong i do think Lopez is a good player and has made big strides from last season.

Put Bogut in New Jersey as the number 1 option on the offensive end and he would put up 20/10 no worries at all and i do believe the Nets would have won more than 5-10 games with him as the anchor. Have you looked at the bucks record when Bogut goes for 19 ppg or more, i am 100% sure this is not the same for the Nets when Lopez goes for 19ppg or more. Look at his stats with the bucks, he still puts up huge numbers being the no.2 option and he has learnt to hit his free throws which is a catalyst for why his scoring is up big time (once upon a time he was a poor FT shooter and though his percentage is still low, it is rocketing up) Also, one upon a time Bogut was injured, he's not anymore and is 100% healthy, health issues being a thing of the past. Bogut is playing like the number 1 pick in the draft.

Bogut has pretty much the same supporting cast as Lopez if not worse (both teams have one other good player, bucks Jennings and Nets Harris), yet amazingly his team is still close to .500, work that one out??? Whats the nets record with Lopez leading the charge with the same crappy supporting cast as Bogut? End of debate, next

[blkout]

Getting to the line and the resulting points from it are part of "field goal shooting".

Only when it benefits your argument. Field goal shooting means shots from the field, not foul shots. If you want to take those into account use TS%, but when I want to put so much of an emphasis on foul shooting then I will, until then when I say field goal shooting you know exactly what I mean.

He averages more turnovers while playing more minutes and receiving significantly more defensive attention on a historically bad team. Think about that.

I will, if you take into account the fact that Lopez is scoring 3PPG more on a historically bad team in which he is the only consistent offensive option. You can't use that argument to make excuses for a negative, then turn around and ignore it when it fits a positive. Doesn't work like that.

As it is their turnovers are comparable but if you were to switch their teams and ask Bogut to carry the offensive load Lopez has been burdened with his turnovers would go up while his FG% would go down.

11.7 vs 13.5... not really that close. And you can't just assume that would happen, it's like people saying "well if he took more shots he'd shoot a worse percentage"... that's not always how it works. Plus like I said before, most of your argument is hypothetical. IF this and IF that... just deal with the facts man.

Regardless let's not blow things out of proportion when talking about FG%. Of 33 players averaging more than 18 ppg Lopez is one of only 11 shooting 50% or better from the field.

And that's good, there's only 2 guys in the league averaging 15/10/2+, Dwight and Bogut.

He should probably get more attention for what he does on defense but he's not a "league renowned defender", primarily because he's a major liability in pick and roll situations.

A major liability? When was the last time you saw him play? Looking at Lopez's style, considering he's a decent mid-range shooter wouldn't he be lighting Bogut up if he was such a liability? People around the league are beginning to recognize him for his D, that is "league renowned".

...There's so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin.

With an explanation maybe. You think 3 ppg is worth more than better field goal percentages and less turnovers? Whatever floats your boat.

Again, verticalhops definitely does not represent the majority of us. Lopez will probably be better than Bogut eventually, I have little doubt about that. If he isn't I'll be surprised.

[verticalhops]

Getting to the line and the resulting points from it are part of "field goal shooting".

Only when it benefits your argument. Field goal shooting means shots from the field, not foul shots. If you want to take those into account use TS%, but when I want to put so much of an emphasis on foul shooting then I will, until then when I say field goal shooting you know exactly what I mean.

He averages more turnovers while playing more minutes and receiving significantly more defensive attention on a historically bad team. Think about that.

I will, if you take into account the fact that Lopez is scoring 3PPG more on a historically bad team in which he is the only consistent offensive option. You can't use that argument to make excuses for a negative, then turn around and ignore it when it fits a positive. Doesn't work like that.

As it is their turnovers are comparable but if you were to switch their teams and ask Bogut to carry the offensive load Lopez has been burdened with his turnovers would go up while his FG% would go down.

11.7 vs 13.5... not really that close. And you can't just assume that would happen, it's like people saying "well if he took more shots he'd shoot a worse percentage"... that's not always how it works. Plus like I said before, most of your argument is hypothetical. IF this and IF that... just deal with the facts man.

Regardless let's not blow things out of proportion when talking about FG%. Of 33 players averaging more than 18 ppg Lopez is one of only 11 shooting 50% or better from the field.

And that's good, there's only 2 guys in the league averaging 15/10/2+, Dwight and Bogut.

He should probably get more attention for what he does on defense but he's not a "league renowned defender", primarily because he's a major liability in pick and roll situations.

A major liability? When was the last time you saw him play? Looking at Lopez's style, considering he's a decent mid-range shooter wouldn't he be lighting Bogut up if he was such a liability? People around the league are beginning to recognize him for his D, that is "league renowned".

...There's so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin.

With an explanation maybe. You think 3 ppg is worth more than better field goal percentages and less turnovers? Whatever floats your boat.

Again, verticalhops definitely does not represent the majority of us. Lopez will probably be better than Bogut eventually, I have little doubt about that. If he isn't I'll be surprised.

Oh really, so the majority of the bucks suppoorters would trade Bogut for Lopez and think Brook will be the better player in the future, your a knob. You shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the bucks.

[trwi7]

His team is playoff bound

Please shut up and go look at the standings.

You shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the bucks.

See the first three words above.

[verticalhops]

Please shut up? Thats exactly what i thought when i read your post

[NetsForce]

Only when it benefits your argument. Field goal shooting means shots from the field, not foul shots. If you want to take those into account use TS%, but when I want to put so much of an emphasis on foul shooting then I will, until then when I say field goal shooting you know exactly what I mean.

Taking good shots from the field results in getting to the line, and getting additional points if you're capable of hitting your free throws.

A shot that you get fouled on is still a shot from the field hence why it's part of "field goal shooting" even though the attempt is not counted as a formal shot attempt in the boxscore.

Lopez is the more efficient offensive player.

11.7 vs 13.5... not really that close. And you can't just assume that would happen, it's like people saying "well if he took more shots he'd shoot a worse percentage"... that's not always how it works. Plus like I said before, most of your argument is hypothetical. IF this and IF that... just deal with the facts man.

2.24 vs 2.58...

The more shots you take the lower your FG% is. That's pretty much a statistical fact. The more defensive pressure you receive the harder it is to score. That's not a statistical fact but it's common sense. Similarly if you play more minutes and handle the ball more you're likely to have more turnovers. Once again that's common sense.

You put Kobe Bryant on the Nets and his FG% falls, this isn't a Bogut specific phenomenon it's easier to be efficient on a good team with good players as opposed to a bad one.

Look at Trevor Ariza for a recent (extreme) example of what I'm talking about.

And that's good, there's only 2 guys in the league averaging 15/10/2+, Dwight and Bogut.

Brook Lopez is at 1.9 bpg are you really going to exclude him from that group of players?

A major liability? When was the last time you saw him play?

So now Bogut is fleet of foot in pick and roll situations?

With an explanation maybe. You think 3 ppg is worth more than better field goal percentages and less turnovers? Whatever floats your boat.

Your statement can be interpreted in a variety of different ways in one such manner you're essentially arguing that Lopez should take less shots so that his PPG falls and his FG% rises even if it's not in the best interests of the team.

Also if what you say is true why doesn't Bogut take less shots a game so that he sacrifices say oh 4 ppg and shoots closer to the 57% from the field that he did last year?

===

As for Verticalhops, I figured he doesn't represent the majority of Bucks fans. The Bucks fans I know aren't (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

[Aussie 2point0]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ huh what? oh you guys are finished?
About Fing time. Seriously who cares? I;m apassionate Nets Fan and I love Lopez. I'm a proud Australian and I like Bogut.
The simple fact is both players are good. Bogut was a number 1 pick(which i don't think was a good pick) He was top 10 maybe 5 but I don't think 1 But to his credit he sold himself well and good luck to him.
Lopez was asteal and should of definately gone top 10.

The point is Bogut career has been slow to take off and thats what has been held against him.

They will both have great NBA careers.

Get over it

[blkout]

Lopez is the more efficient offensive player.

Overall he is, I never argued that. It's just a matter of evaluating the parts of the sum, i.e FG% he's not as good, FT% he's vastly better... which do you put more value in? If that makes sense.

The more shots you take the lower your FG% is. That's pretty much a statistical fact.

It's not a statistical fact because it's not a 100% guarantee to happen. There are guys who have increased their FG% with more shots (Bogut in 07-08 compared to now for instance) and guys who's FG% has decreased... I could go into it more but that would veer off what we're discussing.

Brook Lopez is at 1.9 bpg are you really going to exclude him from that group of players?

Yes, because he's not averaging 10 rebounds per game

So now Bogut is fleet of foot in pick and roll situations?

There's a pretty huge margin between being a liability and fleet of foot... he doesn't struggle with pick and rolls though that's for sure. His only real defensive struggle is guys who hit mid-long range J's, because he only 1/2 commits.. he tries to stay close enough to them to defend their shot, but without leaving the basket completely exposed behind him. If they make their shots they'll score points. against him. Bosh for instance lit Bogut up that way, whereas Lopez struggled because he just missed those shots.

Also if what you say is true why doesn't Bogut take less shots a game so that he sacrifices say oh 4 ppg and shoots closer to the 57% from the field that he did last year?

The problem with that is last year he was turning the ball over at a ridiculous rate (19.3)... so if you were to say 4ppg in exchange for 5% less turnovers, I would absolutely take it, but 4ppg in exchange for 5% better FG% I wouldn't bother. I think there's a bigger benefit from the team if a big guy is turning the ball over less compared to shooting less but shooting slightly better, the trade-off I mentioned with Lopez would involve both shooting better and turning the ball over less... but now I'm the one talking in hypotheticals

They will both have great NBA careers.

Get over it

This is a discussion board, we're discussing two players. What's wrong with that? We're not exactly flaming each other. It's good to have a back and forth talk for a change.