Ah, it's always a great challenge to play one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. I know I've went to him for when I've been on the clock, because I consider his opinion to be among the best. That's part of the fun in these competitions, moreso than making picks, and building teams, it's talking with the sorts of Warspite, and others, and overall discussing, and learning about the game of basketball. Once again, he's built a fantastic team, one so much so, I would be frustrated if I were to win, because he has one of the top 5 teams in the league. Best of luck War, we wish you the best of luck in this series, and truly, may the best team win.
Which I fully intend to do so.
- Backcourt ComparisonWhen one looks at Isiah Thomas, and Joe Dumars, you look at one of the most successful backcourts to have ever played the game. I'm not necessarily going to say our backcourt is better, but we feel we can neutralize that advantage, if not have the slight edge.
I'd expect cross matching here, as for me, I'll be putting Michael Ray Richardson on Isiah Thomas. MRR is another one of those players, that often doesn't get talked about as an all-time great, because of his relatively small peak. And that's a shame, as he did that to himself, and was a magnificent player before he got into drug problems. He was a monster rebounder from the G position, a very good passer, a nice finisher around the basket, and most importantly, a dangerous defender that had both the quickness AND size to defend Isiah.
In the last competition, we elected to put Wade on Isiah, partly because of the quickness to somewhat stay with him, and the size to alter his shots from the perimeter. Here, MRR does all that, and to a greater extent, as he actually has more size, a known perimeter defender, and just as quick. This is somewhat, like the Barry, and Jones matchup, except, Barry is greater than the individual being spoken here.
Paul will be on Dumars. With this team as constructed, Dumars is primarily the perimeter defender, and spot up three point shooter. Neither Isiah, nor Jones effectively space the floor from distance, and the same is obviously said with McDyess, and Chamberlain upfront. Dumars, anyways didn't have a post game to effectively take advantage of his size. In this case, Paul will stay with him on the perimeter, and use his quick hands to take advantage and get steals.
Our team will be playing a sort of trapping defense, with Barry, MRR, and Paul all on the perimeter averaging three steals per game respectively. Put that with Hakeem upfront, and we'll make it hell for a team just trying to get the ball up the floor.
Isiah will have a series, but I personally believe, Paul is truly the better player in this matchup. The only edge, is that Isiah has the rings. In this case, that's not true, as War has elected to choose his 86 season, a year in which Isiah had not reached the finals. Electing for more statistics, Paul in fact averages more points, on better percentages from the floor, a higher volume of assists, more rebounds, greater amount of steals, and considerably less turnovers, ALL in a much slower pace, than the Hornets in 07-08 did.
Dumars, is certainly better than Richardson, he's a better scorer in these games with his range, though their volume is similar. Richardson is a better in the passing lanes, and a considerably better rebounder, and passer. Both are elite defenders, Dumars having the slight edge, both teams having similar roles for their respective player. They'll likely be cross matching, guarding the other teams PG, which I feel MRR is more suited to do, as he was more a traditional PG anyway.
MRR, by any means isn't a true SG. But in this matchup, it makes the pick look MUCH better, because of how small War's backcourt is both offensively, and defensively.
King will be a load to handle, but at the worst, we'd have DPOY to counter with Artest coming off the bench, for roughly 26 minutes per game. Who guards Ray Allen, when he's in the game? Is it Richardson? And whom does King guard? We can't have it two ways, if King has his way, that doesn't somehow mean, a "hot," Barry would get substituted, because that would only mean a hot Barry would get even HOTTER.
- Bobby Jones defending Rick Barry.77' Jones Nuggets - 91.1 shot attempts per game. 15.1 points, and 8.3 rebounds (29.5 minutes)
82 Jones Sixers - 85.0 shot attempts per game. 14.4 points, 5.2 rebounds (28.7 minutes)
Not to mention, Nuggets Jones averaged 2.3 steals, and 2.0 blocks. Sixers Jones takes 1.3 steals, and 1.5 blocks per game. You take, Nuggets Bobby Jones, which is considered his "prime," and adjust it to 85 shots per game:
14.0 points per game, 7.7 rebounds, 2.1 steals, and 1.78 blocks per game.
Point is, when adjusting for pace, ABA Jones was maybe slightly better, but no real significant difference between the one in the ABA, and the one in the NBA. Which leads me to my next point, as it's easier to accumulate stats against Bobby Jones.
78-79 First Round: Bernard King - 26.0 PPG, 5.5 RPG on 50% from the floor.
80-81 First Round: Billy Knight - 18.5 PPG, 6.0 RPG on 53% from the floor.
Gervin averaged 28 points, on over 50% from the floor as well - throughout that playoffs. Unfortunately, they do not have the exact statistics for that series.
We all know of the dominating finals performance by Erving against Jones, in the ABA Finals as well. Now certainly, Barry isn't Julius Erving, but strictly as scorers, and even their all round games, Barry isn't too far off, if not a more diverse scorer. The true separation is in Erving's ability to play at an elite level off the ball, and his defense.
In fact, look at these statistics:
Julius Erving: 75-76: 29.3 PPG / 11.0 RPG / 5.0 APG / 2.5 SPG (40.5 MPG)
Rick Barry 74-75: 30.6 PPG / 5.7 RPG / 6.2 APG / 2.9 SPG (40.4 MPG)
Both played at roughly the same pace as well, and led their team to championships. Erving was better, but Barry was comparable enough, and a superstar in his own right.
People don't realize, that type of season Barry had, in terms of one year peak, was right there with any perimeter player to have ever played the game. He's super efficient from the line, shot over 46% from the floor, and regarded one of the better shooters from the perimeter during that era. The three point line came into play the final season of Barry's career, in which he was a shell of his former self, merely a role player, on a different team, shooting a poor percentage.
That final season, Barry was in fact 2nd in three point makes, there's no doubt in my mind, with that sort of practice, in a modern day sort of game, that Barry would be an elite shooter from the perimeter.
Bottom line is, Bobby Jones, is one of the most respected, and best defenders to have ever played the game. Fortunately, Rick Barry, is one of the greatest players to have ever played the game, his one year peak, as good as any player to have ever played. He's a superstar, that faced DOUBLE coverage, and here with no double coverage, nor a responsibility on the defensive end (as he will be guarding Bobby Jones, not much an offensive threat, especially in a league like this), Barry will have his way.
Jones should do as well as one may be able to do, but Barry is still the best perimeter player in this series, no mistake about that.
- Hakeem v. WiltLet's just make it sweet and short. Wilt isn't going to stop Hakeem, and Hakeem isn't going to stop Wilt. Chamberlain was an amazing defender, as is Hakeem, but when we're talking about the the top 5-6 greatest players to have ever played the game, especially in a one year peak setting, in which Hakeem was the MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP in the same year, there's no chance Wilt would drastically alter Hakeem's stats to the point he noted (roughly 10 points less, on 7% less shooting).
- The case in point is, I'd presume most of us have seen the matchups between Kareem and Wilt, either on youtube, streams, or torrents. Wilt, held his ground, and did as good as one could, but Kareem still dominated, and showed no ill-effects in his game. Once again, when we're talking about these stratosphere of players, they'll make it harder for the opponent to score, but ultimately, it won't greatly reduce their effectiveness, because they're just that good.
Wilt is likely the better player, but when we're talking about the other player dominating everyone in his path, with a lackadasical supporting cast to an NBA championship while picking up every major award on the way, the gap is minimal. I mean, Wilt is better than Robinson, and Ewing sort defensively, but is it entirely possible to be THAT much better than those players defensively that it would reduce Hakeem's effectiveness that much? Hakeem not only played well against those players, but he took their families and raped them.
- Other Team Strengths
--> Trapping DefenseWith MRR, CP3, and Barry in the lineup, we have three elite players in the passing lanes, all whom average three steals per game. Forcing opponents to put the ball on the floor will be our task, and with Lucas smarts, and Hakeem's supreme weakside game (including his ability to get into the passing lanes), we'll put constat pressure on the defense.
--> ShootingEvery team has to have a player from the 60's and 70's. Which makes spacing a supreme in later rounds, we feel we were able to get great shooters from those eras as well, with Barry, and Lucas. Then surrounded with Paul, who's a solid shooter, and the likes of Ray Allen off the bench, we think our team is very hard to stop.
Wilt won't stop what we plan to do with Hakeem.
Why we feel we'll win
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Shooting. Lucas is an elite shooter from his position, he had three point range, was among the most efficient players, in one of the least efficient times, and did all that from the perimeter. Many often cited his jumpshot, as easy as a layup. I hate to cite youtube as an example, but here's a good length video on the shooting ability of Lucas,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lLBCtblLKA.
Paul, himself shoots 37% from three making over one per game, as we noted earlier, Barry would at the worst be an adequate shooter in today's game, and we have arguably the best shooter to have ever played in Ray Allen coming off the bench. For Warspite's team, only Dumars was a prolific three point shooter, as well as Richmond who plays the same position. Sikma was noted for his range, but moreso his mid-range game, as it was apparent he was less efficient from behind the arc. We'd like to reiterrate this point, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond off the bench arethe only perimeter shooters on this team. Sikma, McDyess are mid-range shooting big man, Archibald, and Isiah are slashers, King was more on the inside, and Jones being a garbage player around the basket.
And I feel I'm being rather generous here, as Dumars who played 75 games that season, only made twenty two threes that season. It was apparent, that in the chosen season, whether that was before the game evolved into more a spacing game, or what not, that three point shot was not a large part of Dumars game. I could even go on length to say, that Richmond is the only volume make, and efficiency three point shooter they they possess.
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Overall, execution and efficiency. My opponent notes his team does not turn the ball over, while this is true, we ultimately, have to look at the head of who's running the offense. In this case, it will be Isiah Thomas, and Wilt Chamberlain, while for ourselves it will be Hakeem, Paul, and Barry. Fact is, Wilt didn't turn the ball over, because those stats weren't recorded at the time, considering his assist rate, it'd still be efficient, but I wouldn't expect anything less than roughly three turnovers per game. But all that is speculation anyway, same with the case with myself and Barry (though we do note, when Barry was a more selfish player, the late 60's, early 70's, and in the ABA, he did average roughly 3.5 turnovers per game). Later on in his career, when he was still 23/5 player for the Warriors, he in fact averaged under three turnovers per game as well, a great number for a player of his caliber.
Anyways though, Isiah, while a prolific passer, also averaged four turnovers per game. You know what makes Paul so special? It's not his all around game, or his poise, and efficiency, it's the fact he RARELY turns the ball over. Despite handing out over eleven assists, Paul barely averaged two and half turnovers per game. That's not just a very good assist to turnover ratio, but arguably the greatest of all time. Overall, Wilt certainly is a great offensive anchor, but when it comes to down the stretch play, where Wilt cannot receive the ball, because of his poor FT shooting, I'm sure the answer down the stretch, execution wise would give the advantage to Paul, and Barry over Isiah, and Dumars.
- Clutch Play. That leads into our next reason, as we'd like to reiterate, that Wilt is probably the worst FT shooter to have ever played. In his chosen season, he went to the line eleven times per game, and shot a dismal 44% from the line. For comparison sake, Hakeem whom gets to the line nearly four times less than Wilt, still made more FT attempts per game. That would result in Wilt getting negated in the clutch, as they're unable to go him, because it's guaranteed Hack-A-Wilt would be performed. The same cannot be said for a closing lineup such as ours, that would consist of eye opening shooting, between Paul, Allen, Barry, and Lucas around Hakeem. All of whom are prolific FT shooters, at their respective positions, Barry and Allen being two of the greatest to have played.
I feel, we'll have the more dangerous, and better executing offensive lineup, with less holes to win a close game.
- Matchups. Our opponent claims MRR, is the worst starting SG in this competition. We're actually not going to rebut that point, aside from the fact that he acts as a defensive SG (as he was 6'5, played combo guard, and even listed as a Guard-FORWARD on BR), that rebounds, wrecks havoc in the passing lanes, and otherwise gets majority of his minutes at PG. In this case, our opponent cannot exploit this matchup.
We had decided from the beginning that MRR would be on Isiah, and as War notes, MRR was a very good defender against PG's. He'll have both the quickness, hands, and size to disrupt Isiah to a point anyone can. Because of this scenario, we'll put Paul on Dumars, and as War notes, Dumars serves primarily as a spot up shooter. He's not blindingly fast either, so he won't tire out Paul defensively. Isiah, and Dumars are a terrific backcourt, with storied success, but we feel, our backcourt matches up well with theirs, and at worst plays them to a standstill, if not outplay them.
We also like the Lucas, and McDyess matchup. Lucas will not have to put it on the floor, because of the playmakers we possess, in Paul, Barry, Hakeem, and even Richardson. Lucas will find himself open, because of the collapsing defense, particularly because Isiah won't be able to stay with Paul. I don't think it's as easy as claiming he'd have to put the ball on the floor in order to negate him, he's an elite at boxing out, will completely dominate McDyess on the boards, and stretching him further than he'd like defensively (especially a younger Dyess), also limiting the boards McDyess will be able to accumulate. McDyess should have a good series, but as Richardson is considered a weak spot, McDyess in the same sense here is as well. He's just not up to par, either offensively, or defensively to be a legitimate threat to beat you in a series. Lucas, while not a frighteningly athletic defender, was a smart one, even mentioning once, he memorized every teams play book, and knew exactly what they were going to do.
Hakeem, and Wilt, we've gone over, as well as the snippet above about the bench factor, specifically meaning Allen/Artest in regards to Bernard King.
- Rebounding.This is in fact not an area we expect to actually win, as Wilt is the most dominant rebounder of both teams, but we wanted to point out, that it wouldn't be a large determinant in terms of whom wins the series. Adjusted for a game of 95 shot attempts (this is very flawed, as it does not include minutes per game, partly because, I do not know my opponents rotation, and I'm somewhat feeling lazy right now).
Code: Select all
Chamberlain - 24.2 rebounds (100.0 shots) --> 22.9 rebounds
McDyess - 12.2 rebounds (83.8 shots) --> 13.8 rebounds
Dumars - 2.8 rebounds (85.1 shots) --> 3.1 rebounds
Thomas - 3.6 rebounds (94.5 shots) --> 3.6 rebounds
Jones - 8.3 rebounds (91.5 shots) --> 8.6 rebounds
52.0 REBOUNDSCode: Select all
Olajuwon - 11.9 rebounds (82.1 shots) --> 13.7 rebounds
Lucas - 19.0 rebounds (95.9 shots) --> 18.9 rebounds
Ray Richardson - 6.9 rebounds (88.4 shots) --> 7.4 rebounds
Paul - 4.0 rebounds (82.8 shots) --> 4.5 rebounds *funny because, last season he averaged 5.5.
Barry - 5.7 rebounds (97.3 shots) --> 5.5 rebounds
50.0 REBOUNDSAgain, very flawed because of the minutes rotation and such, but it gives a vague idea toward the rebounding prowess. Warspite's frontcourt is clearly superior rebounding the ball, while our backcourt similarly dominates theirs. He'll likely have the small edge on the boards, but overall, I don't feel it will be a large factor in determining who wins the series or not. It also doesn't divulge into the bench, partly because of the uncertainty on minutes, and how much a difference there is between the starters, and bench players. Not too mention, the big name perimeter players, with King/Allen/Artest all have similar rebounding prowess at a first glance look.
Overall, it should be a great battle, one in which I'm very interested to see the result. Can really go either way, and I feel it's a crime for either team to be eliminated in the first round. Best of luck.
Really? That lineup is capable of "playing 5 minute stretches without letting anyone score which will be vital to build on leads and hold onto existing leads." In that case what is my defensive lineup capable of? And who is scoring besides Penny in that lineup? BTW like I said before Penny isn't the defender you are making him out to be.
Ok. Where to start. First off you don't have "better answers for their questions than they do ours". A very long Penny isn't a good defender. Wille Wise is but he is only playing 10 minutes. Reggie Miller isn't smothering anyone, give me a break your making him out to be something he is not. A good defender. You double the best passing PF ever and you pay, thats probably the worst way to guard KG.
Just wanted to go through point by point with a rebuttal this afternoon, I apologize if it's a bit much.
