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Where did we go wrong with our bench?

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Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#1 » by Patterns » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:33 pm

How did we go from having a top 3 bench in 07-08 to having a top 3 worst bench in 09-10? What went wrong? You would think that a few years of experience would have made Sasha and Farmar even better players. Even if you factor in Odom, our bench still isn't nearly as good as it was in 07-08.

If we still had that 07-08 bench along with the 09-10 starters... :o
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#2 » by semi-sentient » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:54 pm

1. We were fooled by Vujacic and his contract season. He was great in 07-08, but fell off the map after that. How a guy that gets wide open shots can fall off is beyond me.

2. Farmar's minutes have been erratic and we've shown no interest in grooming him to be our starting PG. I don't even know if that would be a good idea anyway, but he doesn't get enough minutes to be as effective as he could. All things considered, he's having himself a nice season.

3. We should have had Bynum coming off the bench from the start of last season. Our bench has no post presence and I never liked the idea of starting Gasol/Bynum in the first place. Now that we've allowed him to be a starter it will be hard to get him to willingly accept a role off the bench, but I think it should at least be tried. It would open things up for the shooters (Vujacic, Farmar, Brown) and keep the pressure on opposing bigs. He would dominate reserve C's, without question, and there wouldn't be such a big drop off in production (at least in theory).
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#3 » by crazyeights » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:01 pm

Who was on our bench at that time? Are you talking pre or post Ariza trade?
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#4 » by semi-sentient » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:06 pm

I think it's worth mentioning that our 07-08 bench failed miserably when it mattered most, so I personally wouldn't put too much stock in using that season in a comparison to this years bench.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#5 » by crazyeights » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:23 pm

I'd still love to see a list the OP is talking about...because IIRC it started when we traded away our depth in multi-player deals (Evans + Cook for Ariza), and (Brown+Critt for Gasol). I don't think anyone would dispute that:

1. These were great trades for our team, but:
2. They did thin out or bench.

Combine that with the fact like Sasha has lost his way, Luke's been injured, and (perhaps the biggest case) we lost Turiaf for Powell. Turiaf was the center in what 82games calls our 3rd best 5-man rotation:

Fisher-Bryant-Radmanovic-Odom-Turiaf.

I think he changed the dymanic of our bench insurmountably. Having a guy like Ronny off the bench, no matter how sparse his minutes, keeps everyone engaged. I know the league changed the cheerleading (standing) rules this year...but do you remember that bench? They had a blast.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#6 » by microfib4thewin » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:31 pm

Turiaf played a part, but the bench was still playing well during the first half of last season. When the bench committed too many turnovers, Phil told them to slow down, and the second unit has struggled ever since. Losing Ariza made us a much slower team, and since Farmar thrives in transition he could never fulfill the role that we need, and that is why the offense doesn't gel when we use Farmar+Sasha as the backcourt.

The bench is playing better now, I am glad Phil is finally done with Sasha as our main backup SG.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#7 » by Magicontinues » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:14 pm

In the playoffs, all teams use a 8 man or so rotation. We are deep enough for that, that's all that matters. All this talk about what happened is really meaningless. We have the 2 best record in the league, and are defending Champs. :roll:
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#8 » by daddyfivestar » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:42 pm

Part of it is perspective. The bench looked like a strong contributor back then because the starting 5 wasn't as good-
Fisher
Kobe
Odom, were the standards.
plus Vlad or Luke at one F,
and one of Kwame or Cook or Bynum for the 5th starter (Phil didn't go Bynum permanently until mid December that year).

The bench looks pretty good when you have two of your starters as Vlad/Kwame, or Luke/Cook, etc.

And if the bench looks good and is putting up more stats, people start talking about it being one of the better ones in the league, even if it really is not.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#9 » by slifersd » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:16 pm

I think the biggest issue with our bench (outside the deterioration of certain players) has been that we are not letting them run. Players like Farmar, Brown and even Vujacic are better suited for a running style type of offense. Once they are allowed to get up and down the floor, they can get open shots and create havoc on opposing defense. If they keep playing a half court offense, they have next to no capability to create any offense whatsoever. This was evident in the Utah game as well. When we were running, our defense and offense were great. Once we slowed things down at the beginning of the fourth, we started giving up our leads.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#10 » by crazyeights » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:50 pm

I might have missed some article with a quote from PJ...but when did they state the bench isn't allowed to run anymore?

A team can't just run. They have to play defense, get rebounds, push it when the opportunity is there. IIRC that's what happened against the Jazz in that second quarter.

Don't remember PJ slowing them down. Not with Sasha leading the break!
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#11 » by Dr Aki » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:18 am

slifersd wrote:I think the biggest issue with our bench (outside the deterioration of certain players) has been that we are not letting them run. Players like Farmar, Brown and even Vujacic are better suited for a running style type of offense. Once they are allowed to get up and down the floor, they can get open shots and create havoc on opposing defense. If they keep playing a half court offense, they have next to no capability to create any offense whatsoever. This was evident in the Utah game as well. When we were running, our defense and offense were great. Once we slowed things down at the beginning of the fourth, we started giving up our leads.


+1, (it also doesnt hurt that gasol is able to run the fast break)

the entire run, run, run style was predicated on having ronny, LO, ariza, sasha and farmar push the ball at almost every opportunity. you had your high flying acts in LO, ariza and farmar, and your ball handlers in LO, sasha and farmar

they were built for speed and they pushed a frenetic pace when the 1st team was having their rest, it basically forced the opposition to try to defend both half-court and in transition against two very different styled units
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#12 » by microfib4thewin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:54 am

crazyeights wrote:I might have missed some article with a quote from PJ...but when did they state the bench isn't allowed to run anymore?

A team can't just run. They have to play defense, get rebounds, push it when the opportunity is there. IIRC that's what happened against the Jazz in that second quarter.

Don't remember PJ slowing them down. Not with Sasha leading the break!


It was toward the allstar break last year when Phil mentioned that the second unit was playing too fast and turned the ball over too many times. Even without an article, if you can recall the sequence of last season you would also notice the bench stopped running as they went toward the playoffs and everyone started complaining on how the bench outside of Odom was not helping on keeping leads. It was also evident at that time the outside shooting has become questionable. Farmar and Sasha goes back to not hitting shots, Vlad got traded, Fisher got older. It was already a huge contrast to 08 when we had three guys that shoots over 40% from the arc. This year only seem worse because we move slow as molasses with Bynum and Gasol on the court. Kobe losing more functional fingers didn't help any.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#13 » by Patterns » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:20 am

crazyeights wrote:I might have missed some article with a quote from PJ...but when did they state the bench isn't allowed to run anymore?

A team can't just run. They have to play defense, get rebounds, push it when the opportunity is there. IIRC that's what happened against the Jazz in that second quarter.

Don't remember PJ slowing them down. Not with Sasha leading the break!

If you remembered, the bench was playing terrible last year at some point because they turned the ball over way too much and played carelessly.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#14 » by laduane1 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:05 am

Let the pass go. The bench won a championship last year. Only main difference is Ariza for Artest. Lakers will have a OK bench as long as so many guys make so much money. No money to go get better players. We lucked out so much on S. Brown.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#15 » by Sofa King » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:47 pm

Last year the Lakers had Ariza coming off the bench for the majority of the year. Losing Ariza off the bench and having Artest start pretty changed the bench for this year.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#16 » by joe.linnen » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:07 am

I like the make up of our bench, but one thing that should have went down that didn't happen pissed me off. I wanted Vujacic gone, but they gave him that darn contract. I like seeing Farmar, Brown, Walton, Odom and Powell out on the floor together.
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Re: Where did we go wrong with our bench? 

Post#17 » by salmahayek » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:40 pm

linnen, I like your five off the bench. They have played well together at times.

I'm probably going to be laughed off the board, but what about the idea of Gasol coming off the bench? He could still get starters minutes at C and PF, respectively.

Gasol has a high basketball IQ and is so fundamentally sound, that I think he could come off the bench and blend right in with our starters, as well as, be an anchor for our second unit.

Minutes breakdown:

SF Artest 30, Odom 10, Walton 8
PF Odom 26, Gasol 14, Powell 8
C Bynum 30, Gasol 18
SG Bryant 36, Brown 8, Vujacic 4
PG Fisher 24, Farmar 20, Brown 4

The only thing I don't like about my minutes breakdown is maybe not enough for Brown, but if necessary, he could get Sasha's minutes.

This would keep everyone's minutes down, with Kobe and Lamar maxed out at 36 each. Bynum and Gasol play less minutes, which I think is good for the regular season, since both have had injury issues and Gasol has logged quite a bit of basketball over the last several years.

Artest gets 30 a night to continue the process of him blending in throughout the regular season and hopefully, ready to really take it to the next level in the playoffs.

The starting unit could really focus on getting the triangle going smoothly, throw it into Bynum early, and get Fish a couple of open baseline threes, see if they can get hot at the beginning of the game. If not, Kobe can look to assert some offense. Artest and Lamar are outstanding all - around players who do not necessarily need to shoot a lot to be successful and contribute, so it allows Kobe to be aggressive while trying to get Bynum and Fish off. Lamar can be a beast on the boards and he can hit the weak side very aggressively on the offensive end.

If Bynum and Fish are not going strong early, bring in Gasol and Farmar right away. There would be no drop off at center and the Lakers could try to do more in transition with Farmar at the point, where again, Artest and Lamar would be just fine.

I doubt Gasol comes off the bench, but I think it could really work and could improve some of our shaky chemistry at times.

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