NBA/ABA Decades League Playoffs: Round 1 DUE SATURDAY

[Dr Positivity]

The game was on in the background so I decided to do one. If you decide not to count it that's OK

SabasRevenge vs bryant08

bryant08
Patrick Ewing (35) - Pau Gasol (13)
Charles Barkley (35) - Pau Gasol (13)
Julius Erving (35) - Paul Pierce (13)
Sam Jones (25) - Paul Pierce (13) - Joe Johnson (10)
Chauncey Billups (33) - Mo Cheeks (15)
situational: Elmore Smith

SabasRevenge!
PG: Cooper (24-28) - Porter (20-24)
SG: Havlicek (40-44) - Cooper (4-8) - Hornacek**
SF: James (32-40) - (Schrempf 8-12)
PF: Unseld*/Hayes (40-48) - James (0-8)
C: Mourning (36-38) - Hayes/Unseld (10-12) - Ruland**
*will play over 25 minutes
**situational

I'm going to break this down into two parts. Offense and defense.

Offense

This team reminds me of the Cavs. On both teams Lebron's penetration is the #1 halfcourt option. Unseld's near GOAT pick setting helps this. Cooper/Porter's 3 point shooting makes them great PG fits beside Lebron. Hondo is an ideal 2nd option, albeit his lack of 3 point shooting concerns me. Porter/Cooper/Lebron would be the better offensive lineup as every shot would either be a Lebron score or open 3. However Hondo's d, fast break ability, and playmaking when Lebron is off, makes up for it.

Unseld plays the Varejao rule, Mourning gets Shaq's touches. Hayes is a terrific 6th man. He has me-first issues but Lebron is a master of making players commit to the team, add Unseld and Hondo and he'd be converted I bet

Little factors

Offensive rebounding - Great

Turnovers - Porter, Cooper, and Unseld's numbers should be really low playing off the ball. The TOs will come from Lebron and feeding Mourning in the post but overall they should be solid

Fastbreak - Should add an element this year's Cavs don't have. Unseld can throw outlets and Hondo can run the floor with the best of them.

bryant08

If Saba's team was the Cavs, this one is the Nuggets. I expect Billups/Jones/Erving would look like Billups/Jones/Melo, but with Barkley and Ewing up front providing an uber efficient scoring option and massive offensive rebounding. The reason I list Jones instead of Afflalo is I'm pretty sure Jones wouldn't be hitting 3s which is a major problem with Erving's lack of range. Billups is the only 3 point shooter in the starting lineup. So if it was me I'd play Joe Johnson at SG 30mpg, but I have to go by bryant's minute distribution.

Offensive rebounding: Superb. Barkley is one of the best, Ewing matches Mourning. Erving's 76 numbers look REALLY good, but keep in mind he played basically without any big man rebounders. I think beside Barkley and Ewing he'd be more of a 7-8rpg guy like Lebron.

TOs: I'm concerned both because of the pace they play, how cramped their halfcourt sets would be, and because they have a harder time breaking down the defense. There will be more iso type plays on this team which leads to more TOs

Fastbreak: Outstanding. Erving and Barkley would be the best SF/PF fastbreak combo... ever. I expect they'd play at Denver's pace and those two would be unstoppable in the open court

Offensive conclusions: Saba has the better halfcourt team because of Lebron's clear playmaking and better spacing in the offense. I believe they would turn it over less as well. Bryant has the better fastbreak team and is the better offensive rebounding team. I'm going to call this a relative draw

Defense: This one is pretty easy to me. Saba has a defensive advantage almost everywhere. Stronger backcourt, Lebron is => Dr. J, and Unseld, Mourning, and Hayes is DEFINTIELY better defensively than Barkley, Ewing, and Gasol. According to bryant's minute distribution Barkley and Gasol would play 13mpg together... they'd be at a big defensive advantage all of those minutes. Unseld can't personally punish Barkley much, but the help defense hole between Unseld and Barkley would be gigantic, especially with Billups and Jones being OK at help d. Then if bryant's team is more of a leaking out fastbreak team than Saba's, I expect Saba then has a defensive boards advantage.

Overall: Saba. Offense is very close, defense is a no contest

[BlackIce]

If you could judge the Warspite vs. TMac matchup we can move on to the next round, depending on the vote. Thanks.

[All In The Name]

Dr Mufasa, it'd be great if you stick around for the next few rounds, but I'm not going to count that vote, simply because it could potentially cause a tie, and then I'd have to find another judge (easier said than done).

[All In The Name]

Ok, just to clarify, there are 2 matchups left in this round (SabasRevenge! (2 votes) vs. bryant08 (1 vote) and TMACFORMVP (1 vote) vs. Warspite (2 votes)), and the 2 judges with remaining votes are ronnymac2 and penbeast0 (penbeast0 only has to vote on a matchup if it is tied after ronnymac2's vote).

[penbeast0]

Since DrM did a fine job breaking down the other tied series as a possible tiebreaker, I'll throw the same thing out for the Warspite v. TMac series. Use it, don't use it, no worries.

Pistons vs. Rockets

Isiah Thomas/Tiny Archibald
Joe Dumars/Mitch Richmond
Bobby Jones/ Bernard King
Antonio McDysee/Jack Sikma
Wilt Chamberlain/ George Mikan
VS
Chris Paul
Micheal Ray Richardson/Ray Allen
Rick Barry/ Ron Artest
Jerry Lucas/Larry Nance
Hakeem Olajuwon/ Jermaine O Neal

A few quick comments first. (a)Chris Paul is more efficient than Isiah. (b) McDyess isn't going to outrebound or own Jerry Lucas in any way, shape, or form, (c)Nor is Jack Sikma clearly superior to Larry Nance . . . Sikma has the advantage in outside shooting, passing, and holding post position; Nance in inside shooting, slashing, and help defense. Depends what you need. (d)Nate Archibald was a drive and dish guy but he did have a terrific midrange game . . . and Bobby Jones relied on his corner jumper and little runners in the lane as well as fast break and back door layups. That said:

I think cross-defending saves the Paul/Richardson backcourt. It should work very well for everything except matching the spread the floor outside shooting of the Pistons and Ray Allen helps there. Jones, on the other hand, is not playing to his strengths against Barry. What Bobby Jones did best was to prevent penetration and postup, not Barry's game. McDyess also isn't going to be comfortable that far out on the perimeter; nor is he enough of an offensive threat to punish the average defense of Jerry Lucas. King v. Barry is a pure shootout with King having the advantage though, and neither Artest nor Nance will have the impact that King will. The real question is whether Wilt dominates Hakeem. I see an advantage to the Rockets elsewhere on the floor, but this is the key matchup. Wilt is bigger, stronger, and at this point in his career is a terrific defender but Hakeem faced Shaq (the most similar player to Wilt) and while he didn't slow Shaq that much, nor did Shaq slow Hakeem. Should be a battle with Wilt having the rebounding edge and Hakeem scoring more (but less efficiently).

Big man offense -- As I said, Hakeem should outscore Wilt, Lucas outscores McDyess . . . off the bench, Nance is a better go to player than Sikma but Sikma helps the rest of the offense more (defensively they reverse roles). Detroit has the slight edge based on Hakeem's ability to raise his game for the playoffs.

Wing/Point offense -- I like Chris Paul's heady and mistake free play here more than Isiah's more fiery hot streaks. Barry also gives Paul a second creator that Detroit can only match when King comes in. Edge Rockets

Passing/Playmaking -- Houston has loaded up with playmakers with two PGs and a playmaking forward in their lineup. If they can find enough balls to go around, they should have the edge though Isiah and Dumars are among the all time great backcourts in this area. Edge Rockets.

Rebounding -- Whoever faces Wilt has an uphill climb in any rebounding battle. Lucas, Richardson, and Paul are all clearly superior to their opponents but there won't be that many rebounds left for the guards. Edge Pistons.

Defense -- Hakeem, McDyess, and Sikma have the defensive edge inside as Lucas was merely okay and Hakeem is one of the few players I'd hate to face more than Wilt. Although Bobby Jones is all-everything every year and Barry is weak, the matchup doesn't ask that much of Barry and the backcourts are reasonably even. Edge Rockets

Bench -- Allen and his 3 point shooting are a near perfect fit with Paul and Richardson; Richmond isn't quite as good a fit with Isiah and Dumars (and a Tiny/Dumars backcourt is awfully small). In the frontcourt, King and Sikma are stronger than Artest/Nance. Pretty even.

Intangibles -- Wilt's free throw woes take away one of Detroit's major threats down the stretch and he always seemed to come up short despite his greater talents while Hakeem is a notorious playoff beast. I think Paul will end up acknowledged as the best small guard ever if he continues on his present arc and Barry's playoffs (v. the Bullets, sigh) match anything Isiah and Joe D. did. Edge Rockets.

Overall, I see the Rockets taking this with their superior clutch play despite the Piston's actually having more talent. Helluva good matchup and writeups as always.

[ronnymac2]

Sabas vs. Bryant.....

Wow. Every rebuttal I read literally kept making me switch back and forth. These teams are trying to do completely different things.

I don't understand the years for Barkley and Unseld. Yeah, Unseld won MVP, and Charles was amazing on the glass. But rookie Unseld.....rookies aren't the players that they will become just yet. And Charles might have averaged a lot of assists, but he didn't exactly know how to use his guys and he turned the ball over a lot. I think better versions of those guys could have been selected.

I could be on board with Zo being a better defensive player than Ewing. However, Ewing was a very good jump shooter. He'll take Alonzo away from the basket area (Same argument can be made for Zo, too I guess...but Zo's j wasn't as good as Ewing's, even back in 1990 when Patrick didn't rely on that j as much). Either way, I believe Unseld and Barkley will lead their respective clubs in rebounding, mainly due to the centers pulling each other away as well as just simply being superior rebounders (unseld and barkley I mean). Ewing will outproduce Zo; Ewing is better. And imo, HIS turnovers are more a consequence of a guy who shouldn't be a first option being a first option. Patrick was supposed to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a good offensive team. He'll handle the ball less here, so he should be fine.

I really dislike Bryant's argument about Cooper. Cooper works very nicely in this matchup and in ATL's overall. He isn't a pure pg, but with Hondo and James, he doesn't need to be. He spreads the floor nicely for the other guys.

Lebron is imo the best player in the series, but Erving is very close to him. I don't have much else to say about that matchup. It'll be great.

At first glance, you might look at bryant's team and just thing "Oh...talent....not impressed". But I think Chauncey and the backup perimeter players bring it together. Billups and Cheeks are amazing floor leaders with experience and good defenders. They know how to handle talent. Johnson and Pierce bring great shooting and can take over a 5 minute stretch in the 2nd or 3d quarter. Sam Jones is a clutch monster (seriously....check what he did in game 7's). Hondo and Jones is an amazing matchup that Havlicek will win, but Jones is going to make him work, and his clutch shooting might be a factor.

Regarding the actual Cannonball Matchup.....The young Barkley certainly has a quickness advantage on Unseld and will be able to take advantage of that. However, Unseld does take one of Charles's normal strengths away, which is his post game. I'm not sure if Unseld can control Charles on the glass....Charles could outquick players. He is imo a top 3 offensive rebounder ever. Wes will do as good a job as any. Wes will also effectively outlet out to James and Hondo on the wings where they can fast-break.

Porter and Schrempf stabilize things on the bench. Hayes vs. Pau is interesting. Hayes hated Tex Winter's triangle, while Gasol is a perfect fit (doesn't matter in this.....just thought I'd point it out). Hayes is a better rebounder and a bit better on d, but I think Pau's type of defense will limit Hayes on the other end, too. Hayes didn't exactly work well with others too much either.

I think I'm going with Bryant's team. I think Bryant's team's bench compliments the other guys better, Ewing will win his matchup with Alonzo, and Chauncey/Cheeks will make sure everything stays under control. Jones, Erving, and Billups can close things out and match James and Hondo in clutchness.

Lebron being the best player makes it go 7, but Bryant's team comes away with the victory. Great job guys.

[ronnymac2]

And finally.......Tmac vs. Warspite......

Terrible teams. Awful writeups. Giant dissappointments. Uninteresting matchups. I don't know what either were thinking really.



This is my 8th one, I gotta change it up somehow. haha


This matchup has so many individual matchups that are historically awesome, I don't know where to begin. Hakeem vs. Wilt are GOAT centers and players who simply offer different things. Lucas/Nance vs. Dice/Sikma....fundamental-shooter type/athlete vs. athlete/fundamental-shooter type. Barry and Artest vs. King and Jones....4 small fowards who couldn't be more different. Isiah vs. Paul...father vs. son. MRR/Allen vs. Mitch/Dumars....great ATL role players.

Barry vs. Isiah in the battle of super-clutch douche-bags might decide the series. haha

Aside from the whole "Wilt completely shutting down Hakeem" thing, I thought both posters did an excellent job. They know their players very well. I want to address the MRR situation first, as both posters made this a topic of importance. MRR certainly does not help his team ito of spacing, and combined with Dumar's all-time elite defense, MRR's isos will be shut down. However, with incredibly smart players and passers on his team, Richardson will get his share of points and assists. He'll be unstoppable as always on the break and he'll cut backdoor once or twice for dunks.

His defense vs. Isiah will be VERY good for most of the game. If Isiah decides to take over though, it won't matter who is defending him. Isiah is an underrated clutch performer....I'm not talking about rings either. He was great his whole career in big games. I like Paul moving on Dumars. Paul's man defense isn't elite all-time, but it won't be taken advantage of too much against the role playing dumars. I think Allen and Archibald are fantastic bench players that provide their teams what they need. Tiny is an explosive player (I would prefer Celtics Tiny though) who can take over a quarter or 2 in this series. Ray spreads the floor beautifully and is clutch. Mitch gives his team shooting, too.

The foward matchup is pretty damn awesome. I think King having to contend with help from a lot of places will make it so that he isn't killing Artest and Barry when he arrives off the bench, but he is a highly efficient scorer. This version of Artest was imo overrated defensively, but still excellent, and he'll do well. Barry's type of offense might frustrate Jones. Tmac did a good job of explaining how Barry can attack Jones. Jones will get his playing off Wilt and Isiah and on the offensive glass and hustling.

Lucas taking Dice away from the basket is nice, and Lucas will hold the athletic Dice off the offensive glass....for the most part. Dice is an amazing leaper. Nance and Sikma are perfect change-of pace fowards for their teams.

With the way the pf matchups play out, Wilt vs. Dream really becomes a 1 on 1 contest. I believe this version of Wilt can hold Dream off the glass (especially on Wilt's defensive glass). I think Dream can force Wilt into some turnovers with his good hands. Both have the effect of not letting the other play too much help d...Wilt and Hakeem know better than to leave Wilt and Hakeem alone. haha

As for the scoring matchup, I don't think this version of Hakeem can handle the pure low-post presence that Wilt is. Hakeem can defend Ewing's and Robinson's, but not Wilt's and Shaq's. Nobody can. He's an absolute warrior though, and if constant swarming and triple teams and elite post defenders couldn't stop him from getting his, neither can Wilt, as great as he is on d.

Isiah is a good defender, but I think Chris Paul can get what he wants throughout the game, and even though MRR offers poor spacing, Barry, Lucas, and Hakeem are great at spacing the floor relative to their positions. Like I said before....Isiah can take over at any time. BUT....so can Barry. Clutchness is pretty even with Barry/Allen/Paul vs. Isiah (edges out Barry for best here)/Dumars. Tmac's team gets a slight edge with a superior free throw shooting line-up to close the game out.

This is the best matchup I read. This was my last one, so I can say that with certainty now. I'm going to have to go with Tmac's team. This can go either way, but I think his team gets the edge because of Barry's matchup advantage. Paul might outplay Isiah in a few games of the series. I don't think Barry will get outplayed by his counterpart. Fantastic teams and writeups guys.

[bastillon]

Ok, just to clarify, there are 2 matchups left in this round (SabasRevenge! (2 votes) vs. bryant08 (1 vote) and TMACFORMVP (1 vote) vs. Warspite (2 votes)), and the 2 judges with remaining votes are ronnymac2 and penbeast0 (penbeast0 only has to vote on a matchup if it is tied after ronnymac2's vote).

please let me understand this: these matchups are tied when there's a 2-1 advantage to either side, but my matchup is lost by 2-1. why is that ? if I have to lose, I'd like to do it in a fair way

[bastillon]

Code: Select all

                   rocdogg     ronnymac     dcash    gremz   penbeast   Mufasa
                                                                             
Snake vs Cellar     Cellar       Snake     Cellar   Cellar                   
Sabas vs Bryant      Sabas      Bryant      Sabas   Bryant               Sabas
Tmac vs Warspite  Warspite        Tmac       TMac      War       Tmac         
BI vs pancakes          BI          BI         BI                             
Sam Bone vs Bast  Sam Bone        Bast     ------      Sam                   
AITN vs Baller        AITN        AITN     ------     AITN                   
Miller vs Dallas    Miller      Miller     ------   Miller                   
Myth vs Bruh Man  Bruh Man        Myth     ------     Myth                   

Cellar 3
Sabas 1

Tmac 3
War 2

BI 3
pancakes 0

Sam 2
Bastillon 1

AITN 3
Baller 0

Miller 3
Dallas 0

Myth 2
Bruh Man 1

[All In The Name]

Ok, just to clarify, there are 2 matchups left in this round (SabasRevenge! (2 votes) vs. bryant08 (1 vote) and TMACFORMVP (1 vote) vs. Warspite (2 votes)), and the 2 judges with remaining votes are ronnymac2 and penbeast0 (penbeast0 only has to vote on a matchup if it is tied after ronnymac2's vote).

please let me understand this: these matchups are tied when there's a 2-1 advantage to either side, but my matchup is lost by 2-1. why is that ? if I have to lose, I'd like to do it in a fair way

Those matchups weren't tied at 2-1, but they had the potential to be tied because ronnymac2 had yet to vote on them at the time. Since dcash4 didn't vote on your matchup, though, there were only 3 judges for your series, meaning 2 votes were sufficient to advance.

[penbeast0]

OP asked me to writeup the Sabas v. Bryant matchup too . . . no problem. It's always a pleasure to read this type of serious thoughtful analysis.

Again, a few bones to pick (sorry Sam): (a) Although Terry Porter was listed at 6'3 and Sam Jones at 6'4, they don't play like players of similar size. Jones played a more vertical game with more hops and a longer body type, plus he was being measured in socks where Porter was measured in shoes so figure Jones at 6'6 equivalent. Porter will do a credible defensive job on him but Jones plays bigger. (b) Picking Unseld's rookie season was a mistake . . . not. Unseld was build like a friggin refrigerator and his knees couldn't handle the weight. He got cannier (his passing in his rookie year was not that great although he became known for it later) but appreciably slower and more horizontal. He was a legit MVP taking the Bullets from worst in the East to best in the league in one year and his rookie year was easily his best as both a help defender and manning up against more mobile opps like Barkley. (c) LeBron was stronger than a young Erving. LeBron is better built but basketball strength comes from the thighs and hands and there Erving was a match. He just didn't have the weight work (steroids?) for the body boy look; with them he'd have been built more like LeBron. (d)Elvin Hayes did not "score from all over the court." He either scored from 2 feet away or he set up in the mid block for that relatively inefficient but unstoppable turnaround jumper. That was his whole game and it worked for him for over a decade. (e) Cooper was not an offensive threat -- true. He could hit an alleyoop with his athleticism and he shot wide open threes but his scoring isn't going to scale up that much -- of course, in an ATL it doesn't really need to but he's one of the guys you can leave to double down except for the 3 pointer threat. (f) Jones was not better than Havlicek, great as he was. Red Auerbach said at the time that Havlicek was his 3rd best player and that's what Red wanted as his 6th man (Russell and presumably Cousy were the top 2).

That said, it does seem to come down to individual brillance of Bryant's team with their great scoring and efficiency v. the superior defense and team play of Sabas's Fir Ballers. I won't do my normal analysis for that reason -- the breakdowns are pretty obvious, it basically is which you believe wins championships. I lean to defense and team play so will vote for Sabas. It may not be true but I desperately wish to believe it . . . my prejudices are coming out here.