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Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK)

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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#421 » by pillwenney » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:03 am

SacKingZZZ wrote:I'd put Brockman and Dorsey on Dwight over just about anybody and claim they'd make things about as tough as anyone for him. Brockman played him very well and made him work his butt off to get his points when they met.


Ehh...let's not get carried away. Undersized guys like that are good on some post bigs, but at the end of the day, the "use the lower center of gravity and strength to push people out", for me, isn't as good as the "play smart positional D while having awesome length and good enough strength to hold you're ground" post D.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#422 » by RekeHavoc » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:40 pm

mitchweber wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:I'd put Brockman and Dorsey on Dwight over just about anybody and claim they'd make things about as tough as anyone for him. Brockman played him very well and made him work his butt off to get his points when they met.


Ehh...let's not get carried away. Undersized guys like that are good on some post bigs, but at the end of the day, the "use the lower center of gravity and strength to push people out", for me, isn't as good as the "play smart positional D while having awesome length and good enough strength to hold you're ground" post D.



Exactly. I'd take a Nene, Haywood, Kenyon Martin, Tim Duncan(obviously), etc. over those 2 guys any day for post D.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#423 » by ICMTM » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:38 pm

KF10 wrote:Landry does solve various issues that we have here but the thing is, he does not solve our main issue.

The trade isn't horrible in any stretch of the imagination and I have said that the deal is fair. Landry is going to improve the team like you said.

I think Tyreke and Landry will be a fantastic fit for the Kings. Landry has added another pick in roll, pick and pop option for Tyreke and others.

But until Petrie addresses the main issue of this team, I don't think we can be truly successful.


What is our "main" issue?

I'm kind of thinking that we either stand pat for a while. At this point I think or weaknesses are either lack of experience or overall talent level.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#424 » by KF10 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:51 pm

ICMTM wrote:
What is our "main" issue?

I'm kind of thinking that we either stand pat for a while. At this point I think or weaknesses are either lack of experience or overall talent level.


A legitimate defensive presence around the post. A need for a defensive anchor.

Landry did brought new dimensions to the team such as toughness and efficiency around the post but it does not fill our highest priority of need though.

....

I like the core we are building on but I don't think the potential defensive level will be there. Guys like Garcia, Evans, Tyreke and etc are going to be fine on the defensive end but those guys are suited guarding the perimeter.

Guys like Thompson, Hawes, Landry does not fit the bill of guarding at a high level for us. And they're post/big men. To be successful, we need someone in the post playing defense at a high level.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#425 » by ICMTM » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:59 pm

I see it a little different. Defense is harder to learn than offense in the league according to coach. We're young and stupid sometimes out there. I'm kind of leaning towards we will grow out of it. Thompson looked anchoresque against Boston. I'm not saying he WILL (or will not) be a defensive anchor. I am saying though we need to let Thompson and Hawes play a little more before we make a drastic change.

I do think the defensive anchor is a bit over rated. I don't see Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol being those type of players. Shaq isn't (any longer), but those teams are the two best currently. It's a nice thing to have, but I think our team defense is so bad that the anchor would just be in foul trouble.

I like the lineup we have right now. These are the changes I've wanted to see for a while so lets see based on the changes if that will still be a glaring need. You could be right. I'm just saying I'd like to wait.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#426 » by KF10 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:12 pm

I have couple things to say:

-The defensive potentials of Thompson and Hawes is difficult to read. One night, they look absolutely clueless and the other night, they look awesome. I'm not sure how they are going to project in the future defensively. Will Thompson stop getting those ticky-tack fouls he usually commits? Will Hawes finally built his frame/body at an ideal level to able to play consistent defense (and post offense)?

-I don't like the defensive philosophy implemented by Westphal. I don't know what kind of defensive system is placed on a consistent basis. One night it is all zone defense and the other night is "swarming" defense in general. But I agree with you, the team defense is pretty much horrible, I could see why there is no consistent defensive system is set.

-I think to be truly successful, the PF/C positions should be at least above-average defensively. Well, you can make the case that you can have one average defensive player and a very good defensive player paired up in the post, that would be also fine.

.......

But I agree of your notion that we should wait and evaluate what we have now.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#427 » by Nicky Nix Nook » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:46 pm

I'd like Thompson to be our 12/10 guy and defensive anchor in the middle, he has the potential. Sort of like a more dynamic Haywood.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#428 » by ICMTM » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:02 am

Nicky Nix Nook wrote:I'd like Thompson to be our 12/10 guy and defensive anchor in the middle, he has the potential. Sort of like a more dynamic Haywood.


As it stands now I'd like to see that going forward instead of spending money on a FA. I feel Thompson will figure it out. He's had some success this year. It's Hawes that hasn't had the good showing this season. He's gone from doghouse to starter to starter that doesn't get any minutes.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#429 » by pillwenney » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:29 am

Spencer has definitely been improving for the most part in the last couple of months, and there was a stretch where he was clearly outplaying JT.

And to be fair, everybody on the team not named Tyreke has been moved in and out of the starting 5 like crazy.

I do think that a defensive anchor is very important--what I think is overrated is having one guy to take care of all of it. That can work, but I think the more important thing is over all size and length inside. The Lakers had 3 bigs last year--two very long 7-footers, and Odom who has the length of a seven footer. Gasol definitely has improved defensively over the years, and is helped, again, by his awesome length.

At the end of the day, you most certainly do need an intimidating presence in the middle defensively. Perimeter D is just too hard to play in today's NBA. You need somebody there that's going to make players think twice about going straight to the rim. It just makes such a huge difference.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#430 » by Dustin5566 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:38 am

Kevin's Houston debut (so far):

14 min. 6/4/4/2/1

Pretty good all around game so far.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#431 » by ICMTM » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:29 pm

Dustin5566 wrote:Kevin's Houston debut (so far):

14 min. 6/4/4/2/1

Pretty good all around game so far.


on 3-16 shooting.

Jamison was 0-12 with Cleveland

Landry was 4-11

C. Butler debut in Dallas 4-16

Can you see where this is going? It takes some time. I think all of these players above can score the rock in the league. You need to get comfortable to do so. I think in the case of Landry he was tentative. He didn't seem to be playing loose. It was basic stuff that in time when he's comfortable he will correct. I liked what I saw even still.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#432 » by ICMTM » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:59 pm

mitchweber wrote:Spencer has definitely been improving for the most part in the last couple of months, and there was a stretch where he was clearly outplaying JT.


I'm comparing Jason's rookie year to his second season. I'm comparing Hawes from year two to three. I'm not comparing JT to Hawes.

I think Spencer for the most part has not improved drastically over his last season. As many times as you'll see him do something well he shows a glaring weakness. There have been spots where Spencer looked real well. Last night there were times where Spencer looked great moving the ball. Then he looked foolish on the other end. I'd like to see Spencer play better defense and play consistent offense. Last night 22 minutes and one rebound. If he gets boards he gets PT.

Jason Thompson has made a big jump from year 1 to 2. In fact he hasn't been in and out of the starting lineup. He was a starter all season until he left the team for family reasons. Now he's back in the lineup. JT had a decent game last night. Not great, but decent. He's been more consistent this season and his rebounding numbers are good. He plays ok on defense. He's not a liability by any means.

Now if I compare the two I don't think JT and Spencer are the same player. It's an apples and oranges comparison. I'll just say that what Spencer brings on the offensive end doesn't mesh with Tyreke (blame on Tyreke). He's a liability on defense and he doesn't rebound well. He doesn't fit well right now. JT does.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#433 » by RIPskaterdude » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:42 pm

ICMTM wrote:
Dustin5566 wrote:Kevin's Houston debut (so far):

14 min. 6/4/4/2/1

Pretty good all around game so far.


on 3-16 shooting.

Jamison was 0-12 with Cleveland

Landry was 4-11

C. Butler debut in Dallas 4-16

Can you see where this is going? It takes some time. I think all of these players above can score the rock in the league. You need to get comfortable to do so. I think in the case of Landry he was tentative. He didn't seem to be playing loose. It was basic stuff that in time when he's comfortable he will correct. I liked what I saw even still.


What about McGrady's debut in NY? ;)
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#434 » by SacKingZZZ » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:50 am

ICMTM wrote:I'm comparing Jason's rookie year to his second season. I'm comparing Hawes from year two to three. I'm not comparing JT to Hawes.

I think Spencer for the most part has not improved drastically over his last season. As many times as you'll see him do something well he shows a glaring weakness. There have been spots where Spencer looked real well. Last night there were times where Spencer looked great moving the ball. Then he looked foolish on the other end. I'd like to see Spencer play better defense and play consistent offense. Last night 22 minutes and one rebound. If he gets boards he gets PT.

Jason Thompson has made a big jump from year 1 to 2. In fact he hasn't been in and out of the starting lineup. He was a starter all season until he left the team for family reasons. Now he's back in the lineup. JT had a decent game last night. Not great, but decent. He's been more consistent this season and his rebounding numbers are good. He plays ok on defense. He's not a liability by any means.

Now if I compare the two I don't think JT and Spencer are the same player. It's an apples and oranges comparison. I'll just say that what Spencer brings on the offensive end doesn't mesh with Tyreke (blame on Tyreke). He's a liability on defense and he doesn't rebound well. He doesn't fit well right now. JT does.


Hawes and Tyreke were actually getting some chemistry going, but Westphal yanks guys way too often for anyone to really get a feel. JT fits because JT is the kind of player that is going to fit with just about anyone. It's also the reason I think his ceiling is way lower than Hawes'. JT goes in, hustles, makes a few baskets off of some offensive boards, hangs at the top of the key and shoots once and awhile, and he does a good job of fitting in. He changes based on the game, he doesn't change the game. Those are also the reasons I think he should come off the bench. That and he lacks the technical aspects of both offense and defense.

Hawes may not produce big numbers all the time (like I've said before, he's the type that needs the ball or to be involved at least), but he sets solid screens, is rarely out of position on offense or defense, and he doesn't clog the middle for Tyreke. A lot of the time Tyrekes cut off by JT looking for the offensive board, trying to set up in the post, or because he's setting a crappy screen. I've seen enough of Brockman and Hawes to know that they know the game much better than JT and the difference between being 24 and f'ing up and 21 and f'ing up can be quite dramatic in the long run.

I'm not saying he won't improve, but there have been plenty of guys in the league over the years where the waiting for them to "get it" extended beyond their playing days. He can be a very valuable asset, just not the way he's being used. His strength is his activity and energy, use him for that. Now admitting that is like admitting he's not our answer at PF, sorry he's not, and the fact that this team went out and picked up an immediate replacement for his role in the offense speaks volumes. He was playing terrific off the bench the last couple of games, if it ain't broke don't fix it!
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#435 » by darkadun » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:33 pm

I agree with what you guys are saying about the defense. But after Last night's game I've come to the conclusion defense is that last thing we should be worrying about. I'm more concerned about the offense. When we were winning games earlier in the year, we were scoring the ball. Earlier in the season, I'm almost positive we averaged 106ppg. I know that number has dropped considerably.

There are alot of teams that don't play defense and still win games. Take the Suns. Its not like they played great defense last night. Yet, we stuttered and basically took ourself out of the game by being inept on offense.

We need to figure out how to be a consistently good if not great offensive team. Tyreke and Landry should be a good combination out there, with Casspi & Beno showing the ability to be good shooters.
Even Hawes and JT make shots when given opportunity. But it's not meshing, it doesn't seem like they are playing off each other and making each other better.
Sometimes you just have to look yourself in the mirror and say....Tyreke Evans.
That just happened.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#436 » by SacKingZZZ » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:34 pm

Here's the thing though, a team that plays mostly inside ball (which we just supposedly picked up our #1 post option and Tyreke is a drive to the basket type) you just can't go out there and score 106 points a night so you need that defense more than ever at that point. If you're basing your team around half court offensive players, you need to rely on the defensive end because you should be setting the pace of the game. Now that's not saying this team won't or can't get up and down, but they still need to be able to win while scoring at or below the mid-90's point wise.
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Re: Kevin Martin traded to Rockets (3 Team Deal Sac/Hou/NYK) 

Post#437 » by RekeHavoc » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:36 pm

SacKingZZZ wrote:Here's the thing though, a team that plays mostly inside ball (which we just supposedly picked up our #1 post option and Tyreke is a drive to the basket type) you just can't go out there and score 106 points a night so you need that defense more than ever at that point. If you're basing your team around half court offensive players, you need to rely on the defensive end because you should be setting the pace of the game. Now that's not saying this team won't or can't get up and down, but they still need to be able to win while scoring at or below the mid-90's point wise.



We need a Kendrick Perkins type of player at center, or a Dikembe Mutumbo in his prime or something. But our offense would be way better if we had some 3 point shooters. Too often the spacing goes out the window and we start turning the ball over. You can't just be an inside team. Look at the spurs when they were winning championships, sure they had Parker and Duncan playing inside but they had Ginobili, Bowen, then they added Finley, etc. They were very disciplined, they got the ball in the paint, then they swung the ball around and got a bunch of open 3s. Or the Heat when they had Shaq and Wade, they had JWill and Toine and Posey.

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