Bargnani vs. Blatche

[raps4life~]

This thread is still stupid. You can say it's the coaches fault all you want, but the fact of the matter is Blatche is a 10/5 player right now. Does he have skills? Of course. He looks really good in the past few games. But so have SO MANY other players throughout the history of the NBA, and have turned out to be duds.

His coaches watch him EVERY DAY in practice. You think if he was proving that he was a 20/10 caliber player in practice EVERY DAY, they wouldn't play him more? The Wiz weren't even a winning team. They had every opportunity to give him minutes over an old guy like Jamison. Obviously, coaches and staff didn't see it in him. People seem to think they know more than the coaches/staff of an NBA team.

So while he is having a great stretch here, can we wait for him to play well, in full starter minutes, for a full season before you call him better than the starting center of a winning team who consistently plays around 37 minutes a game?

[Relentless88]

Players will look good when given minutes on a team that has no real options.

Trust me, Raptors fans know, we made Mike James and Morris Peterson look like All-Stars here.

[nate33]

This thread is still stupid. You can say it's the coaches fault all you want, but the fact of the matter is Blatche is a 10/5 player right now. Does he have skills? Of course. He looks really good in the past few games. But so have SO MANY other players throughout the history of the NBA, and have turned out to be duds.

His coaches watch him EVERY DAY in practice. You think if he was proving that he was a 20/10 caliber player in practice EVERY DAY, they wouldn't play him more? The Wiz weren't even a winning team. They had every opportunity to give him minutes over an old guy like Jamison. Obviously, coaches and staff didn't see it in him. People seem to think they know more than the coaches/staff of an NBA team.

So while he is having a great stretch here, can we wait for him to play well, in full starter minutes, for a full season before you call him better than the starting center of a winning team who consistently plays around 37 minutes a game?

I'm not saying anything is Flip's fault. Blatche was playing behind another 20/10 player in Jamison who happened to be a veteran with a good relationship with the coach, GM and owner. There was no way Blatche was going to start ahead of him. The only way Blatche would start would be if he played out-of-position at center in front of Haywood - who happened to be having a career year.

Flip did all he could do: play Blatche as a backup to both positions. Unfortunately, when Blatche plays backup center, his production was hurt because he's not really a center. As a result, his per-minute numbers as a backup PF/C (i.e. his per-minute numbers for the season) aren't as good as his per-minute numbers as a starting PF. Now that Jamison is gone, Blatche is thriving because he's playing full-time at his natural position.

You can keep on believing Bargnani is better simply because he gets more minutes. That's fine. I won't argue with you. I'll believe that Blatche is better because his per-minute production is better and his per-minute production as a starter at his natural position is dramatically better. We shall see who is right over time.

[Dr Positivity]

Just another note. Blatche turns it over a bunch more than Bargnani. He averages 2.4 per 36, in the 4 games since the trade he's averaging 2.25. Furthermore throwing the ball into the post a lot can cause more TOs - Especially when teams start treating Blatche as the #1 and start looking to pick those passes. Bargnani averages 1.5 per 36

One of the reasons the Raptors offense is so good is we're the best in the league at having a high eFG and TOV% at the same time. Most high eFG teams throw a lot of TOs to do it and get better looks or it's the other way around. We are 5th in eFG and 8th in TOs, the top 4 teams in eFG (Phoenix, Orlando, Boston, Cleveland) are 17th, 18th, 20th, and 29th in TOs, Utah is 6th in eFG and 26th in TOs. Denver is 7th in eFG and 10th in TOs, San Antonio is 8th in eFG and 9th in TOs.

Bargnani averages 6.6 rebounds per 36, Blatche 8.5. I think the TOs make up a lot of that difference

[raps4life~]

This thread is still stupid. You can say it's the coaches fault all you want, but the fact of the matter is Blatche is a 10/5 player right now. Does he have skills? Of course. He looks really good in the past few games. But so have SO MANY other players throughout the history of the NBA, and have turned out to be duds.

His coaches watch him EVERY DAY in practice. You think if he was proving that he was a 20/10 caliber player in practice EVERY DAY, they wouldn't play him more? The Wiz weren't even a winning team. They had every opportunity to give him minutes over an old guy like Jamison. Obviously, coaches and staff didn't see it in him. People seem to think they know more than the coaches/staff of an NBA team.

So while he is having a great stretch here, can we wait for him to play well, in full starter minutes, for a full season before you call him better than the starting center of a winning team who consistently plays around 37 minutes a game?

I'm not saying anything is Flip's fault. Blatche was playing behind another 20/10 player in Jamison who happened to be a veteran with a good relationship with the coach, GM and owner. There was no way Blatche was going to start ahead of him. The only way Blatche would start would be if he played out-of-position at center in front of Haywood - who happened to be having a career year.

Flip did all he could do: play Blatche as a backup to both positions. Unfortunately, when Blatche plays backup center, his production was hurt because he's not really a center. As a result, his per-minute numbers as a backup PF/C (i.e. his per-minute numbers for the season) aren't as good as his per-minute numbers as a starting PF. Now that Jamison is gone, Blatche is thriving because he's playing full-time at his natural position.

You can keep on believing Bargnani is better simply because he gets more minutes. That's fine. I won't argue with you. I'll believe that Blatche is better because his per-minute production is better and his per-minute production as a starter at his natural position is dramatically better. We shall see who is right over time.

Never said hes better because he gets more minutes. He better because he has proven to be a good player for a stretch of a whole season, as a starter. And Bargnani is a natural PF. He is playing next to one of the best PFs in the game, out of position as a C. That hasn't stopped him from being effective at all.

[Ripp]

You guys are discussing a bunch of irrelevant facts (Mike James, Mo Pete?), or are not watching games. Everyone Blatche has played in his past 4 games has been destroyed by him. He has scored too easily and too well for it to be dismissed as a fluke. He made even Kenyon Martin look like a high schooler.

Flip Saunders doesn't inspire much confidence in me, given that he wanted to use Blatche as a glorified garbageman. Anyway, you raise a good point. How can Flip and the management watch Blatche presumably destroy his teammates on the low block every day in practice and not realize, "Hey, this kid might actually be able to do the same thing in real games!"
Presumably, Blatche didn't just develop these skills a few days ago, he has had them for a while. It reflects extremely poorly on management that they've had a weapon like this and buried him on the bench. Maybe they'd have won more games if they'd used him more...

[Dr Positivity]

I've watched Bargs all season and Blatche since the Minnesota game. if Blatche puts together another 8-10 game stretch of excellent play, I'd feel comfortable saying he is a better scorer than Bargs, and thus a better player overall.

22ppg on 1st option touches vs 17.5 on a team loaded with offensive weapons. Not an equal field to compare. I have no doubt Bargnani would score 20ppg+ if he was the go to guy.

Would Blatche be putting up 22 points a game if Arenas and Butler were still options 1 and 2. I think not.

[Ripp]

Never said hes better because he gets more minutes. He better because he has proven to be a good player for a stretch of a whole season, as a starter. And Bargnani is a natural PF. He is playing next to one of the best PFs in the game, out of position as a C. That hasn't stopped him from being effective at all.

Err, this argument is often used by Raptors fans, and is just silly. Offensively, Bargnani plays like a SF. Defensively, he guards either a PF or a C, depending on matchup. How exactly does what Bosh does on offense negatively affect Bargnani's game? Or are you arguing that next to a C he would somehow be more effective on defense or offense? If so, which? And why?

[raps4life~]

Flip Saunders doesn't inspire much confidence in me, given that he wanted to use Blatche as a glorified garbageman. Anyway, you raise a good point. How can Flip and the management watch Blatche presumably destroy his teammates on the low block every day in practice and not realize, "Hey, this kid might actually be able to do the same thing in real games!"
Presumably, Blatche didn't just develop these skills a few days ago, he has had them for a while. It reflects extremely poorly on management that they've had a weapon like this and buried him on the bench. Maybe they'd have won more games if they'd used him more...

This is exactly what I am saying. We are not talking about some house league team not playing a kid. This is the best basketball league in the world, and even the crappiest of teams have the best basketball minds working for them. Flip Saunders is no slouch. If some of the best basketball minds in the world saw this guy play everyday and didn't see it in him, than he obviously has some serious issues. And no poster on a basketball forum can refute that. He has had 5 seasons to prove him self, and even though he was playing on a team with Jamison/Caron/Arenas/Haywood, if he really showed everyone that we could be a 20/10 (Which would effectively make him one of the best bigs in the game) than management would have been quick to trade one of the those guys right away to make this guy the centerpiece of the franchise.

[Ripp]

I've watched Bargs all season and Blatche since the Minnesota game. if Blatche puts together another 8-10 game stretch of excellent play, I'd feel comfortable saying he is a better scorer than Bargs, and thus a better player overall.

22ppg on 1st option touches vs 17.5 on a team loaded with offensive weapons. Not an equal field to compare. I have no doubt Bargnani would score 20ppg+ if he was the go to guy.

Would Blatche be putting up 22 points a game if Arenas and Butler were still options 1 and 2. I think not.

Offensively, I'm mostly interested in three things:
1) volume (points)
2) efficiency (TS%)
3) Whether it was achieved as first or second option.

If Blatche beats Bargs in all of the above three parameters, I'd say he is a better scorer. If in only one or two, then it becomes more difficult to say.

I'm sure Bargnani could score 20ppg as first option...but probably not efficiently.

[Ripp]

This is exactly what I am saying. We are not talking about some house league team not playing a kid. This is the best basketball league in the world, and even the crappiest of teams have the best basketball minds working for them. Flip Saunders is no slouch. If some of the best basketball minds in the world saw this guy play everyday and didn't see it in him, than he obviously has some serious issues. And no poster on a basketball forum can refute that. He has had 5 seasons to prove him self, and even though he was playing on a team with Jamison/Caron/Arenas/Haywood, if he really showed everyone that we could be a 20/10 (Which would effectively make him one of the best bigs in the game) than management would have been quick to trade one of the those guys right away to make this guy the centerpiece of the franchise.

In theory, I'd be inclined to give the Wizards management the benefit of the doubt in decision making. But then...Flip Saunders decided that DeShawn Stevenson deserved major minutes and to start. Given that decision and the Wizards W/L record (which cannot be blamed entirely on the Arenas drama), I feel I have the right to question anything Flip does.

[nate33]

Flip Saunders doesn't inspire much confidence in me, given that he wanted to use Blatche as a glorified garbageman. Anyway, you raise a good point. How can Flip and the management watch Blatche presumably destroy his teammates on the low block every day in practice and not realize, "Hey, this kid might actually be able to do the same thing in real games!"
Presumably, Blatche didn't just develop these skills a few days ago, he has had them for a while. It reflects extremely poorly on management that they've had a weapon like this and buried him on the bench. Maybe they'd have won more games if they'd used him more...

This is exactly what I am saying. We are not talking about some house league team not playing a kid. This is the best basketball league in the world, and even the crappiest of teams have the best basketball minds working for them. Flip Saunders is no slouch. If some of the best basketball minds in the world saw this guy play everyday and didn't see it in him, than he obviously has some serious issues. And no poster on a basketball forum can refute that. He has had 5 seasons to prove him self, and even though he was playing on a team with Jamison/Caron/Arenas/Haywood, if he really showed everyone that we could be a 20/10 (Which would effectively make him one of the best bigs in the game) than management would have been quick to trade one of the those guys right away to make this guy the centerpiece of the franchise.

If Bargnani played in Washington, he would also come off the bench behind Jamison and Haywood. Jamison and Haywood are simply better than either Blatche or Bargnani. (Although if Blatche's recent play isn't a small sample size fluke, then I'd have to revise this statement.)

[dlts20]

why do you guys keep saying 1st option? Dont act like we are using Blatche like the Lakers did Shaq or something. We do it by committe. Were scoring way more points even with our all stars gone then we were with them. Foye averaged 17ppg last year, Boykins shoots all day, Howard was shooting more than Blatche, Thorton shoots, McGee shoots, Young shoots, Miller shoots, and even Singelton & Ross shoot. Stop acting like he's just chucking up shots on a bad team. We are winning these games and everyone takes shots. He's not dominating the ball. Infact, most Wiz fans were so pissed last game when Flip didnt seem to even give him the rock much even though the Bulls had no one to check him. He couldve easily had gotten 35. In the game against Denver where he had 18 & 11, he sat out the whole 4th quarter. Against the Raps he basically had 2 quick fouls and missed a ton of the 1st half. Until the last game he was only averaging 32min over the first 4.

Dont treat him like he's playing 40 every night, they give it to him on every play, and he's chucking it up with a low FG percentage on a team with no scorers. Thats crap and its so untrue if you watch all those 4 games. Everyone has the green light on our team right now and they use it but we dont take bad shots. We move the ball and if youre open then you shoot. Also, one guy talked about the Post stuff but Blatche is a great passer. His turnovers wont go up. He loves to pass. He's also not stuck in the post like you think. He's a true inside/outside player. With that being said, he has a super tough matchup tonight with Z-Bo and the Grizz big frontcourt. I could see him being in foul trouble but if he plays well tonight then you cant deny him anymore. This is not fluke stuff

[miller31time]

I've watched Bargs all season and Blatche since the Minnesota game. if Blatche puts together another 8-10 game stretch of excellent play, I'd feel comfortable saying he is a better scorer than Bargs, and thus a better player overall.

22ppg on 1st option touches vs 17.5 on a team loaded with offensive weapons. Not an equal field to compare. I have no doubt Bargnani would score 20ppg+ if he was the go to guy.

Would Blatche be putting up 22 points a game if Arenas and Butler were still options 1 and 2. I think not.

If Blatche can put up the numbers your suggesting WITH the same efficiency (or better), then it wouldn't matter if he's option 1 or 2 or 5.

Plus, you can take the 1st option argument two ways. The first, as you mentioned, is that it provides more touches. More touches = better base stats (not looking at efficiency).

However, being a 1st option also means the defense is gearing up for you every night. You'll see more double-teams and defensive schemes targeting that specific player. Conversely, Bargnani would have a lot less defensive attention giving him more room to score at a more effective and efficient clip.

That's why it all ties back into efficiency. If Blatche can average 22/10/2 with the efficiency Bargnani is averaging whatever he is, then it'd be fair to make the proper comparisons.

[TheBigThree]

So while he is having a great stretch here, can we wait for him to play well, in full starter minutes, for a full season before you call him better than the starting center of a winning team who consistently plays around 37 minutes a game?

Note that the thread asks who you'd rather have on your team. Not who is the better player. Obviously, a lot of conjecture and projecting goes into trying to determine just how good Blatche is. His per-minute numbers and performance when receiving enough minutes is enough for me to want him on my team over Bargs.

Obviously, I'm a Wizards fan so take it with a grain of salt.

[Ortho Stice]

If you put up big EFFICIENT numbers as the FIRST option on a bad team, then you are genuinely a gem.

And you're also a gem if you put up big stats for 4 games.

Pace-adjusted per 36 numbers for the season:

Code: Select all

Player           PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
blatche,andray  16.2  8.6  2.0  1.3  1.5  2.4 .493 .532 17.0
bargnani,andrea 18.0  6.5  1.1  0.3  1.6  1.5 .529 .561 16.2

Blatche averaged 23 minutes, Bargnani 35.

I'll readily cede that it's more difficult to produce over 35 minutes a game, but can we please drop this notion that Blatche has only produced in 4 games. He has been putting up solid numbers all year on a per-minute basis. He just has had the misfortune of playing behind the two best players on the team (Haywood and Jamison), which curtailed his minutes. Indeed, when Jamison has been out and Blatche has been forcefed more minutes, he has actually played dramatically better.

Over the the first 10 games of the season (Jamison missed the first 9), Blatche posted the following per-36 numbers

Code: Select all

Player           PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
blatche,andray  16.7  7.9  2.1  0.6  1.9  1.9 .529 .567 19.1

Actual minutes played: 29

Over the past 10 games (I can't do just the 4 as a starter), Blatche's pace-adjusted per-36 numbers are:

Code: Select all

Player           PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
blatche,andray  23.4  9.4  1.8  1.8  1.2  1.8 .560 .610 28.0

Actual minutes played: 27

So basically, Blatche has posted a PER of around 22-24 in games when he has been forcefed minutes due to the absence of Jamison.

Bargnani has been productive for sustained periods of time as a starter. Blatche's comparable production has come from a small sample size. And while that small sample has come from when Blatche has been given more responsibility with Jamison out, it's very uncertain as to whether he'll sustain that production.

[nate33]

Blatche had 24 points, 8 boards and 5 assists tonight. He was 10-19 from the floor and 4-5 from the line.

He played Randolph to a draw. Randolph had 22/9/4 on 8/15 shooting.

[Jimmy Recard]

Blatche's numbers since the Antawn trade:

26.6 ppg, 11.7 rbs, 3.4 ast, 1.4 stl, 1.4 blk

[Ripp]

The only criticism I have of Blatche at this point is that he doesn't get to the line very much. But if he learned to do that, this thread wouldn't be Bargnani vs. Blatche but Bosh vs. Blatche.

Aside from that, an exquisite basketball player.

[Kabookalu]

...this thread wouldn't be Bargnani vs. Blatche but Bosh vs. Blatche.

wow