Los Angeles (24-34) @ Sacramento (19-39)

[KingInExile]

I still stand by my opinion that Spencer has been tainted by a chronic case of Brad-Millercitis. His only hope is to find a Santería Priestess to perform the correct rituals to drive the Millercitis from him.

[ICMTM]

The biggest difference I see is they don't look tired! I see defensive effort on the court as well. I see Reke pushing the ball instead of walking it up. The ball is moving better. I see the same things you see, but you're attributing them to the lineup. I'm attributing them to rest and preparation. The only big lineup change that I see which should be permanent is Udrih and Evans should be the starting back court. I see enough minutes for Hawes, Landry, Thompson, and Brockman anyway. Whoever plays better should get the minutes.

Spencer Hawes has played three good games all year. Two of them happen to be back to back. Again I don't think Spencer's play is the product of playing next to Landry instead of JT, but Spencer having the attitude to play well. I do think playing with Udrih DOES have an effect positively on Hawes' play.

Again you want to say because Spencer is playing now we're playing better. Hawes had every opportunity to play well and flushed it away earlier in the season. Yeah Donte, Sean May, Casspi, Beno can use the lineup shuffle as a legit excuse. Hawes can't. The position (center) was his to lose, and he lost it on his own. After two games I'm not going to be all "ooohhhh Spencer's back lets give him an award."

Going forward I like what I see. I'm not going to sit here and be like we're back on track because we've been in this position often this season. We've lost twice as many games as we've won. It's not a function of one player, but of ALL players playing well to get where we need to be.

We're going to need to have JT play like he did earlier in the season, Spencer play like he is now. We'll need to better integrate Landry. Casspi is going to have to move his wall...a whole bunch of things will have to happen. I just see this as one step. I don't see it as a coming out party. When we get this ALL together I'll share your optimism.

I see our last two wins a function of better play by us, but a lack of execution by the two opponents.

No, I'm attributing it to a little bit of everything but certainly do feel the lineup change has a made a world of difference and has made this team much more dangerous in terms of what it can do.

Rest could be a part of it, but where did they get this "rest"? They had a few days off but they didn't rest, they practiced. The break clearly had nothing to do with it because this team looked like crap after the break, in fact, worse than they did going into it.

Once again, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT SPENCER PLAYING WELL STATISTICALLY, it's about Spencers presence on the floor and how it effects this team. It's the little things like solid screens, feeding the post effectively, knowing where to be in relation to the ball, spotting up and spreading the floor, etc. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

1: Why did it take 60 games for this impact? Is it going to be the norm or is this something that is the exception? You can't answer that question. Time will
2: You can't play 40 minutes a night in the NBA so the lineup WILL change.
3: I'm not a big fan of any one player on the lineup except maybe Tyreke Evans. I understand some of you have players you like and some you don't. I'm not a fanatic about any one player or combination.
4: We've had better wins this year with different lineups.

Conclusion:

This is ONE of a FEW lineups that will work going forward provided that SPENCER HAWES can play consistent minutes. Consistency isn't an expectation NNN it's a requirement. Spencer Hawes hasn't played a solid moth of basketball in his NBA career. I'd like to see him do this on a consistent basis before I say he should be affixed in a lineup. I think you understand that.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

But what are your expectations for a 21 year old center. If you want him playing how he is capable of playing consistently then that is 20/10. That is outrageous. Outside of Tyreke, no one on the team has been consistent, and some of those guys haven't played as well as Hawes has in flashes this year, yet Hawes seems to take the heat consistently (from me too admittedly). His minutes have been jerked around since DAY 1. That takes a toll on a player, I don't care who you are, if you've played, you'd know that. If Hawes has one bad game, his minutes seriously suffer, that can't be said for all the guys on the team.

I think Hawes is Westphal's project, I don't think he hates him at all. But unfortunately that means that Hawes is at the mercy of Westphal's mind games and development process, so consequently we see it in his stats.

[SacKingZZZ]

1: Why did it take 60 games for this impact? Is it going to be the norm or is this something that is the exception? You can't answer that question. Time will
2: You can't play 40 minutes a night in the NBA so the lineup WILL change.
3: I'm not a big fan of any one player on the lineup except maybe Tyreke Evans. I understand some of you have players you like and some you don't. I'm not a fanatic about any one player or combination.
4: We've had better wins this year with different lineups.

Conclusion:

This is ONE of a FEW lineups that will work going forward provided that SPENCER HAWES can play consistent minutes. Consistency isn't an expectation NNN it's a requirement. Spencer Hawes hasn't played a solid moth of basketball in his NBA career. I'd like to see him do this on a consistent basis before I say he should be affixed in a lineup. I think you understand that.

1. Hahaha, have you read anything I've written? I never said I could, but I did say this is the best lineup stylistically speaking that the Kings could put on the court.

2. No, but you can play 36-38, and since Cisco's minutes should increase as he gets in better shape, and since Brockman and JT will be coming back in about 2 weeks there will be more bodies available to spell the starting unit.

3. Neither am I, but I am a big fan of a team that makes sense in terms of how they should and could play. For instance look at my arguments for and against the Evans/Martin idea this franchise was originally building towards. That combination could've worked, but it would obviously have taken style and personnel change for it to work in any significant and/or positive manner.

4. Which ones and how were they better? I've seen every game this year and while some of the wins were certainly heart pumping cliff hangers, I at the very least don't recall seeing THIS lineup (Landry changes this team drastically and how it should or can play) or any other playing in such a breathable space. Shooters spread the floor! A C that can shoot, drive, and especially make plays help spread the floor! Not to mention everything else brought up earlier in the thread.

[SacKingZZZ]

But what are your expectations for a 21 year old center. If you want him playing how he is capable of playing consistently then that is 20/10. That is outrageous. Outside of Tyreke, no one on the team has been consistent, and some of those guys haven't played as well as Hawes has in flashes this year, yet Hawes seems to take the heat consistently (from me too admittedly). His minutes have been jerked around since DAY 1. That takes a toll on a player, I don't care who you are, if you've played, you'd know that. If Hawes has one bad game, his minutes seriously suffer, that can't be said for all the guys on the team.

I think Hawes is Westphal's project, I don't think he hates him at all. But unfortunately that means that Hawes is at the mercy of Westphal's mind games and development process, so consequently we see it in his stats.

That's the funny thing about this debate. My personal expectations of Hawes really aren't all that off the charts outrageous, in fact, it's quite simple: DO THE LITTLE THINGS! Nobody should expect Hawes to get 20 and 10 night in, night out even if he's capable. Make no bones about it, a 20 and 10 player is also a 20 and 10 player as a result of opportunity and role. I'm pretty sure that's not even being considered as his role going forward. Now for Tyreke and Carl the expectations might be a little different although probably not quite that lofty for Carl either, but close.

I want to see Spencer doing what he's capable of doing whether or not he's producing big numbers. Set good screens for Tyreke, spread the floor, feed the post quick and efficiently and help that player get into the most effective position possible by luring your man away or creating a passing situation for him, play solid defense, produce when needed, stay out of the way when needed. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget, this is Tyreke's team and Carl has already been appointed by his commander as our "go to guy" in the post. Spencer, while his expectations as a pure talent should certainly be higher, is to be a complimentary player to them. I just happen to feel he can be an excellent one and better than anyone else we currently have on the roster in regards to our offensive efficiency and overall effectiveness.

[ICMTM]

1: Why did it take 60 games for this impact? Is it going to be the norm or is this something that is the exception? You can't answer that question. Time will
2: You can't play 40 minutes a night in the NBA so the lineup WILL change.
3: I'm not a big fan of any one player on the lineup except maybe Tyreke Evans. I understand some of you have players you like and some you don't. I'm not a fanatic about any one player or combination.
4: We've had better wins this year with different lineups.

Conclusion:

This is ONE of a FEW lineups that will work going forward provided that SPENCER HAWES can play consistent minutes. Consistency isn't an expectation NNN it's a requirement. Spencer Hawes hasn't played a solid moth of basketball in his NBA career. I'd like to see him do this on a consistent basis before I say he should be affixed in a lineup. I think you understand that.

1. Hahaha, have you read anything I've written? I never said I could, but I did say this is the best lineup stylistically speaking that the Kings could put on the court.

2. No, but you can play 36-38, and since Cisco's minutes should increase as he gets in better shape, and since Brockman and JT will be coming back in about 2 weeks there will be more bodies available to spell the starting unit.

3. Neither am I, but I am a big fan of a team that makes sense in terms of how they should and could play. For instance look at my arguments for and against the Evans/Martin idea this franchise was originally building towards. That combination could've worked, but it would obviously have taken style and personnel change for it to work in any significant and/or positive manner.

4. Which ones and how were they better? I've seen every game this year and while some of the wins were certainly heart pumping cliff hangers, I at the very least don't recall seeing THIS lineup (Landry changes this team drastically and how it should or can play) or any other playing in such a breathable space. Shooters spread the floor! A C that can shoot, drive, and especially make plays help spread the floor! Not to mention everything else brought up earlier in the thread.

Dude the only thing we're even disagreeing on is that you want me to say this is the best lineup. I'm done talking about lineups. We've played 60 games and Hawes plays two good games and you're all set for the future on it?

Personally the front court change isn't what's making the difference (and I've said this) it's the play of Beno Udrih as the other guard getting most of the minutes. We were playing well at the beginning of the season until Westphal started bringing Udrih off the bench in anticipation of Kevin coming back. Since Udrih has been in the starting lineup the team has played better.

Spencer is playing well, but really the ball movement and spacing is a function of Evans initiating the offense a lot sooner and Udrih's uptempo game. If you have Evans bringing the ball up methodically and everyone standing and watching it's painful.

All three bigs have a shot from 18 feet on in. Spence can extend that to the three point arc. All three in some form or another have some kind of a face up game. Landry is probably the best in the post. Spencer is the best passer, and probably the more creative of the three offensively. JT is the better rebounder, and is a better defender than Spence. I've heard Landry isn't a good defender but he seems formidable to me. In any event the three don't have skill sets so vastly different that I'm worried about who's starting when all three are playing to their ability. My worry is some players (named Spencer Hawes) don't play to their ability as often as they should.

So I'm done! I'm not arguing anyone should or shouldn't play. I'm just really saying I'll believe Spencer can play at this level AFTER he does it for an extended period of time.

[SacKingZZZ]

Dude the only thing we're even disagreeing on is that you want me to say this is the best lineup. I'm done talking about lineups. We've played 60 games and Hawes plays two good games and you're all set for the future on it?

Personally the front court change isn't what's making the difference (and I've said this) it's the play of Beno Udrih as the other guard getting most of the minutes. We were playing well at the beginning of the season until Westphal started bringing Udrih off the bench in anticipation of Kevin coming back. Since Udrih has been in the starting lineup the team has played better.

Spencer is playing well, but really the ball movement and spacing is a function of Evans initiating the offense a lot sooner and Udrih's uptempo game. If you have Evans bringing the ball up methodically and everyone standing and watching it's painful.

All three bigs have a shot from 18 feet on in. Spence can extend that to the three point arc. All three in some form or another have some kind of a face up game. Landry is probably the best in the post. Spencer is the best passer, and probably the more creative of the three offensively. JT is the better rebounder, and is a better defender than Spence. I've heard Landry isn't a good defender but he seems formidable to me. In any event the three don't have skill sets so vastly different that I'm worried about who's starting when all three are playing to their ability. My worry is some players (named Spencer Hawes) don't play to their ability as often as they should.

So I'm done! I'm not arguing anyone should or shouldn't play. I'm just really saying I'll believe Spencer can play at this level AFTER he does it for an extended period of time.

Short term without question.

[ICMTM]

There really isn't another option short term. You'll get your wish for better or worse.

[darkadun]

I'm with you guys when it comes to Hawes inconsistent play. But if anything these last 2 games should show us that we shouldn't give up on Hawes. Especially when he gets playing time and is actually used in the offense. His potential is damn high.

I've been thinking about the Hawes situation and upcoming draft. There are tons of PF/C likely to be taken in the lottery. Yet, Hawes is not much older than majority of them. In fact, he is the same age as Aldrich who is a Junior. I know this is mentioned alot, but Hawes would be a senior if had stayed in college. When you look at all the options, IMO Hawes has as good of potential as any of them.

With that in mind and the fact that we have Landry, I'm curious how this will affect who Petrie drafts. If we end up with Favors or Cousins, we'll have alot of potential in young big men.

[ICMTM]

I'm with you guys when it comes to Hawes inconsistent play. But if anything these last 2 games should show us that we shouldn't give up on Hawes. Especially when he gets playing time and is actually used in the offense. His potential is damn high.

I've been thinking about the Hawes situation and upcoming draft. There are tons of PF/C likely to be taken in the lottery. Yet, Hawes is not much older than majority of them. In fact, he is the same age as Aldrich who is a Junior. I know this is mentioned alot, but Hawes would be a senior if had stayed in college. When you look at all the options, IMO Hawes has as good of potential as any of them.

With that in mind and the fact that we have Landry, I'm curious how this will affect who Petrie drafts. If we end up with Favors or Cousins, we'll have alot of potential in young big men.

I haven't given up on him. He needs to show growth. With Spencer I feel it's two steps forward, and two steps back. He'll be fine when he gets out of the two steps back mode.